Is this oil suitable for my 2002l3710 hst??

[Chevelle]

Is this oil suitable for my 2002 l3710 HST??


.

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

If me I would not. few thoughts:
your model tractor carries some decent value still
walmart not know for high quality walmart branded stuff
pail doesn't say hst approved

 

[TheOldHokie]

. View attachment 114280

That is a generic UTTO equivalent to Kubota UDT and John Deere Hygard (J20C).

The Kubota recommended oil for your tractor is SUDT which is a lower viscosity version of UDT and similar to John Deere Hygard lo-vis (J20D).

I dont know what Kubota sells in CA but given your ambient temps I would try to find tha Canadian equivalent to SUDT or something close to it - e.g JD Hygard lo- vis.

Dan

 

[GreensvilleJay]

it can get dang COLD on Lake Superior, so please buy the Kubota 'premium UDT' ( south of 49th they call it SUDT.....)

 

[trial and error]

Edited: I use the tractor supply stuff which does say "reccomended for the following applications", which includes Kubkta udt , but I dont have a HST, If I did I would only use kubota fluid

 

[torch]

it can get dang COLD on Lake Superior, so please buy the Kubota 'premium UDT' ( south of 49th they call it SUDT.....)

The Canadian "Premium UDT" and the US "SUDT" or "SUDT-2" are completely different fluids. Premium UDT is a conventional low viscosity mineral oil based fluid made by Shell Canada for Kubota Canada. That is straight from the MSDS. Oddly, despite the fact it is a conventional oil, the pour point is even lower than that of SUDT-2.

SUDT is semi-synthetic and SUDT-2 is fully synthetic. SUDT-2 is made for Kubota by Valvoline according to the SDS. The closest thing I can find to SUDT-2 on this side of the border is Petro-Can's Duratran XL.

 

[torch]

I use the tractor supply stuff which does say kubota UDT aproved, but I dont have a HST, If I did I would only use kubota fluid

No it doesn't. Read it again. I bet it says something like "Suitable for use in..."
Kubota does not "approve" any fluid but their own, and they are pretty secretive about their specifications so other manufacturers can't even claim their products "meet Kubota specifications".

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Is this oil suitable for my 2002 l3710 HST??

Absolutely NOT!

 

[TheOldHokie]

No it doesn't. Read it again. I bet it says something like "Suitable for use in..."
Kubota does not "approve" any fluid but their own, and they are pretty secretive about their specifications so other manufacturers can't even claim their products "meet Kubota specifications".

With all due respect thats picking nits.

Mobil 1 10w30 is a different formulation than Castrol GTX 10W30 but in the same grade and API service class they are interchangeable. They meet the same basic specifications.

Same wuth UTTO. They are API GL4 gear oils with a KV100 of around 9.2 and VI around 130. UDT is just a conventional UTTO formulation with those same properties and basically interchangeable.

SUDT2 is a different animal with significantly different physical properties. It is a GL4 gear oil with a KV100 of 8.1 and Vi of 199 which is important in an HST especially on cold startup.

That said tens of thousands of HST transmissions run just fine on conventional UTTO formulations and even Kubota reluctantly acknowledges that UDT is an "acceptable" substitute for SUDT2 under most conditions. I doubt they would consider it acceptable in Lake Superior cold.

Dan

 

[Runs With Scissors]

Looks like you have a pretty nice tractor there, so I would spend a few bucks extra and just get the "good stuff".

I don't have any valuable insight on what is compatible/good/acceptable or not, when it comes to my toys/tools, it's just the way I roll.

Of course I could also just be that "idiot" who has fallen prey to "The Mans" marketing BS........I dunno....

 

[torch]

With all due respect thats picking nits.

Mobil 1 10w30 is a different formulation than Castrol GTX 10W30 but in the same grade and API service class they are interchangeable. They meet the same basic specifications.

With respect, I don't believe it is picking nits. To quote the Standards Division with the North Carolina Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, “the lack of any specifications does not provide the purchaser with information for its intended use, nor the ability to test the product for meeting those specifications.”

Now, they were specifically referring to the so-called "303" or "yellow pail" fluids marketed as budget tractor hydraulic fluid. These fluids claimed to meet John Deere specifications when in fact they were claiming to meet a a spec abandoned 50 years ago (and actually didn't even meet the obsolete standard). They have been shown to damage HST tractors.

To extend your analogy, it is like slapping a label that states "meets Ford specifications" on a bottle of straight 30 weight non-detergent motor oil and putting it on the shelf beside the Mobil1 and Castrol GTX. Yes, all three might have similar viscosity at a given temperature, and yes, all three will work in your Model T, but that's where the similarities end. Things won't end well if you use it in your F150.

The reason we know the Mobil1 and Castrol GTX oils are interchangeable is because -- as you correctly pointed out -- they are tested and proven to meet the same specifications. Not just physical properties, but all aspects. They might use different additive packages, but they achieve the same goal in the process.

Marketing phrases like "Suitable for use where Kubota UDT is specified" or "Approved for use in Kubota tractors" (Approved by who, exactly?) tell us nothing about the product since there is no published Kubota specification.

In the case of the OP's Walmart pail, the label indicates "SuperTech recommends Universal Tractor Fluid in the following applications:..." (none of which are Kubota UDT)

Note carefully the weasel words. No where do they state it actually meets the specifications that follow them. Very much like the wording on the yellow "303" buckets that were banned from sale in some jurisdictions.

I could mix milk and honey and come up with a hydraulic fluid with a viscosity of 9 centistokes at 100°C. Doesn't mean I should use it in my tractor.

For interest sake, I attach a chart I compiled comparing the physical properties of various name-brand tractor transmission hydraulic fluids. It is interesting to see the wide variation.

Hmmm. No I won't. Forum software does not allow Excel files. Well here it is if you want to download it: Comparison Chart.

 

[TheOldHokie]

With respect, I don't believe it is picking nits. To quote the Standards Division with the North Carolina Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, “the lack of any specifications does not provide the purchaser with information for its intended use, nor the ability to test the product for meeting those specifications.”

Now, they were specifically referring to the so-called "303" or "yellow pail" fluids marketed as budget tractor hydraulic fluid. These fluids claimed to meet John Deere specifications when in fact they were claiming to meet a a spec abandoned 50 years ago (and actually didn't even meet the obsolete standard). They have been shown to damage HST tractors.

To extend your analogy, it is like slapping a label that states "meets Ford specifications" on a bottle of straight 30 weight non-detergent motor oil and putting it on the shelf beside the Mobil1 and Castrol GTX. Yes, all three might have similar viscosity at a given temperature, and yes, all three will work in your Model T, but that's where the similarities end. Things won't end well if you use it in your F150.

The reason we know the Mobil1 and Castrol GTX oils are interchangeable is because -- as you correctly pointed out -- they are tested and proven to meet the same specifications. Not just physical properties, but all aspects. They might use different additive packages, but they achieve the same goal in the process.

Marketing phrases like "Suitable for use where Kubota UDT is specified" or "Approved for use in Kubota tractors" (Approved by who, exactly?) tell us nothing about the product since there is no published Kubota specification.

In the case of the OP's Walmart pail, the label indicates "SuperTech recommends Universal Tractor Fluid in the following applications:..." (none of which are Kubota UDT)

Note carefully the weasel words. No where do they state it actually meets the specifications that follow them. Very much like the wording on the yellow "303" buckets that were banned from sale in some jurisdictions.

I could mix milk and honey and come up with a hydraulic fluid with a viscosity of 9 centistokes at 100°C. Doesn't mean I should use it in my tractor.

For interest sake, I attach a chart I compiled comparing the physical properties of various name-brand tractor transmission hydraulic fluids. It is interesting to see the wide variation.

Hmmm. No I won't. Forum software does not allow Excel files. Well here it is if you want to download it: Comparison Chart.

If you can mix milk and honey and come up with a 9 cSt hydraulic oil with GL4 gear oil performance you are an alchemist.

There are no industry standards for UTTO or hydraulic oil but there are dozens of industry standard tests authored by API, SAE, JIS, ASTM etc.

When Kubota goes shopping for someone to formulate SUDT2 for them they give them a list of those industry tests and associated perfoemance levels. They do not give them a formulary - they leave that to the formulator.

The formulator then chooses a base oil and some combination of commercial libricant additive packeges made and manufactured by chemical companies like Afton, Lubrizol, Infineum, BASF, Chevron. et al. Then the mix that brew up and run the industry standard tests to see if it meets Kubotas performance levels. Some other formulator might choose a different formulary and arrive at an equivalent oil with different chemical composition. Kubota then runs tthe tests inhouse to verify the vendors claim and awards a contract based on - wit for it - price.

So what are the Kubota performance requirements for UDT? Here you go - straight from Kubota - nothing special and easily satisfied by any number of premium UTTOs that have probably not actually been tested against this exact table and certified by Kubota.

There is no industry standard for AW hydraulic oil but nobody gets worried about which brand they are buying to go in their high dollar Case backhoe or excavator. The reason is simple - its a low bar with very generic requirements and easily met. The same is true for UTTO - basic viscosity and GL4 performance.

We are indeed picking nits by by making such a distinction.

 

[trial and error]

@torch no disrespectf and I could have used better terminology knowing that this was going to turn into one of the infamous "oil threads" so I stand corrected in that nature. I did miss read the label on what I use and I took of a picture of it this morning that further confirms your original suspicions of my original, since edited statement. If you zoom in you can see that it says "reccomended for the following applications" and it lists standard kubota UDT as well as kubota trans/hydraulic fluid (w/e) that is.
I'm sure that label isn't printed willy nilly becuase it could invoke some serious lawsuits of it was.
But to my original point I wasn't trying to make it sound like it was the same exact stuff as the kubota udt (of any kind) I was simply trying to relay that I use it in my (year unknown) b7100 gear drive since they share the same sump for the gear trans and hydraulic sump. If I was doing more then running a hydraulic pump for hydraulic rams etc and didn't have a gear trans I would only run the actual kubota fluids since the HST'S are very expensive to fix and the juice wouldn't be worth the squeeze so to speak. Again I thought I was pretty clear on my take and referencing that I wouldn't reccomend it or any other aftermarket hydraulic/trans oil in a HST but if I was unclear on that im sure it's clear now

 

[TheOldHokie]

@torch no disrespectf and I could have used better terminology knowing that this was going to turn into one of the infamous "oil threads" so I stand corrected in that nature. I did miss readthe label on what I use and I took of a picture of it this morning that further confirms your original suspicions of my statement if you zoom in you can see that it says "reccomended for the following applications" and it lists standard kubota UDT as well as kubita trans/hydraulic fluid (w/e) that is.
I'm sure that label isn't printed willy nilly becuase it could invoke some serious lawsuits of it was.

As do thousands of other equipment owners. Go read this John Deere blurb. According to them JD Hygard is the only thing you should use in JD equipment. Why? Bercause it undergoes more tests than competing formulations. Shades of Spinal Tap and their special guitar amplifier with a volume knob that goes to 11.

PMB Product:

And then just down the page DEERE turns right around and publishes a table of competetiors specifications for which Hygard can be substituted. This really is marketing BS and they all do it.

Let me be clear - JD Hygard low viscosity (J20D) and Kubota SUDT2 are not generic UTTOs. They are newer synthetic formulations with enhanced physical and chemical properties. They are similar and superior oils that outperform generic UTTOs but hat does not mean they are the only thing suitable for use in JD or Kubota equipment and neither OEM goes so far as to tell you they are UNACCEPTABLE. That would cross a legal line that they cannot justify and would bring a rain of lawsuits down on their head.

 

[torch]

If you can mix milk and honey and come up with a 9 cSt hydraulic oil with GL4 gear oil performance you are an alchemist.

There are no industry standards for UTTO or hydraulic oil but there are dozens of industry standard tests authored by API, SAE, JIS, ASTM etc.

Ah, but I didn't claim it would meet GL4 -- just that it would have the right viscosity at that one specific temperature. Even plain water is a "hydraulic fluid", right?

I don't really disagree with anything you've said. I'm sure there are dozens of third-party fluids that would work just as well as the Kubota branded stuff. Heck, just look at the chart I posted above and see the wide variation between Kubota branded fluids! And as I noted in an earlier post, Kubota Canada's "Premium UDT" by Shell has considerably different physical properties than Kubota USA's SUDT-2 by Valvoline -- yet both are recommended by Kubota for machines that are identical but live on different sides of the border.

My point is that reputable manufacturers pay good money on lab tests to ensure their product meets or exceeds certain specified standards and earn the right to say so on the label. Other manufacturers don't and so hide behind weasel words on the label implying that their product is just as good. The difference between "Meets or exceeds" vs "Recommended for". Caveat Emptor.

We can be sure that Walmart does not make the oil they sell. Their business model is to buy it from the cheapest possible source. It may even be that the source could pass the required tests but chose not to pay for the testing to keep the price low. We don't know.

Interesting chart, BTW. That is the first time I have ever seen something from Kubota specifying their requirements. Very useful. Where did you find it?

 

[torch]

If I was doing more then running a hydraulic pump for hydraulic rams etc and didn't have a gear trans I would only run the actual kubota fluids since the HST'S are very expensive to fix and the juice wouldn't be worth the squeeze so to speak.

You are correct that the requirements for an HST system are less than required of a gear drive tractor. And virtually any fluid can act as a hydraulic fluid insofar as being incompressible and pumpable. Not all fluids are compatible with all seal materials and some fluids are better lubricants than others.

In all probability your seals are compatible with almost any petrolium oil. Hopefully the TSC oil offers sufficient lubricity, although, again, they are using weasel words rather than claiming to have actually been tested against a specified standard. Here's a TBN thread containing an oil analysis of used Traveller's fluid: https://tractorbynet.com/forums/thr...ller-premium-universal-hyd-trans-fluid.404461

 

[TheOldHokie]

Interesting chart, BTW. That is the first time I have ever seen something from Kubota specifying their requirements. Very useful. Where did you find it?

I have friends in high places

I have posted that chart (my creation) before along with this link.

Development of High Performance Transmission/Hydraulic Fluid (KUBOTA Super-UDT) Establishing the Specification and New Test Method

An agricultural tractor is a machine that performs many operations, such as land preparation, cultivation, towing and PTO operation, to name a few. In Japan it must operate in a wide variety of agricultural applications, such as paddy farming, upland farming, fruit farming and dairy farming, and in

www.sae.org

I made my living as a researcher and data is what drives my thinking. When I was working I could get access to SAE publications for free - now I have to pay out of my pocket. I purchased that (copyrighted) report and used it as the basis for the "public domain" chart. The SAE report is not expensive ($35?) and if you want to know exactly what Kubota was after with the development of SUDT buy a copy and read it - several times. In a nutshell they wanted an oil with improved cold weather pymbality and filterability along with increased water tolerance. Thats what separtes it from ordinary UDT and generic UTTOs. John Deere's J20D formulation is similar and CNH has a formulation which they market as Ambra Ultraction SSL. Ultraction SSL was developed and is blended for CNH by Viscosity Oil and may be best of the three. Other than that there is not much of that ilk available.

Dan

 

[mikester]

We can be sure that Walmart does not make the oil they sell. Their business model is to buy it from the cheapest possible source. It may even be that the source could pass the required tests but chose not to pay for the testing to keep the price low. We don't know.

Right on

I do know that wallymart is a universal cr@p marketing company that squeezes it's suppliers to the point of breaking so wally can sell you even cheaper cr@p

 

[torch]

I have friends in high places

I have posted that chart (my creation) before along with this link.

Development of High Performance Transmission/Hydraulic Fluid (KUBOTA Super-UDT) Establishing the Specification and New Test Method

An agricultural tractor is a machine that performs many operations, such as land preparation, cultivation, towing and PTO operation, to name a few. In Japan it must operate in a wide variety of agricultural applications, such as paddy farming, upland farming, fruit farming and dairy farming, and in

www.sae.org

I find it fascinating that apparently Kubota's fluids don't fully meet that spec.

Comparing your chart to the published physical properties that I was able to find online, the viscosity of SUDT-2 @ 100°C spec is >=8.8cSt but the published value is 8.1cSt. The viscosity of UDT @ 40°C is supposed to be <=55cSt, but the published value is 60cSt.

I wonder if the spec was changed over time? Or if manufacturers just could not meet the full specification? The only two fluids that appear to meet or exceed the SUDT-2 spec for viscosity are Chevron All-Weather THF and Co-op Super T-HF SB. I have no idea if they meet the other criteria however.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I find it fascinating that apparently Kubota's fluids don't fully meet that spec.

Comparing your chart to the published physical properties that I was able to find online, the viscosity of SUDT-2 @ 100°C spec is >=8.8cSt but the published value is 8.1cSt. The viscosity of UDT @ 40°C is supposed to be <=55cSt, but the published value is 60cSt.

I wonder if the spec was changed over time? Or if manufacturers just could not meet the full specification? The only two fluids that appear to meet or exceed the SUDT-2 spec for viscosity are Chevron All-Weather THF and Co-op Super T-HF SB. I have no idea if they meet the other criteria however.

My UDT data is the is from 1998 and that difference in KV100 viscosity is not significant.

Chevron AW THF Is supposed to be a J20D fluid. Good luck sourcing it. Same issue with CNH Ulraction. And if you do find either they will be more expensive than SUDT2.

JD Hytran J20D might be a little cheaper than SUDT2 but it is marginal.

SUDT2 is actually one of if not the least expensive product in that category.

Your Duratran product is a pretty close match. I looked it up once but I don't remember if it claims the same level of water tolerance as the others.

Dan