Alec Baldwin facing prison and shouldnt be.

[motionclone]

Just a quick question regarding your post. Why on Earth would there EVER be a live-fire gun on a movie set? Real question, and genuinely curious.

There NEVER should have been live ammo within a MILE of a movie set where firearms were being used. I place the blame on the armorer, not the actor. Believe me, I am no fan of Alec Baldwin, his politics, or his opinions on firearms, but he is an ACTOR. I have no expectation of him knowing ANYTHING about guns. ( I know this because of his stance on "gun control"). However, a professional armorer was hired and PAYED to ensure firearm safety on a set of people who know NOTHING about firearms. It would be a tough job, with a lot of responsibility, yes, but that is what you hired on for.

I read somewhere that the crew, including the armoror, would do some plinking with live rounds off set. And after reading the charging doc linked above. those live rounds where scattered about all over the set.

 

[mcmxi]

I place the blame on the armorer, not the actor. Believe me, I am no fan of Alec Baldwin, his politics, or his opinions on firearms, but he is an ACTOR. I have no expectation of him knowing ANYTHING about guns. ( I know this because of his stance on "gun control"). However, a professional armorer was hired and PAYED to ensure firearm safety on a set of people who know NOTHING about firearms. It would be a tough job, with a lot of responsibility, yes, but that is what you hired on for.

I agree 100% and this is what most reasonable jurors will be convinced of by any half decent defense attorney. You can bet dollars to donuts that Baldwin will have a team of lawyers way more qualified and competent than the First Judicial District Court of New Mexico.

 

[Sparky Prep]

It's mentioned in the probable cause document linked above and I've seen this multiple times in movies and tv shows.

" The photos and videos clearly show BALDWIN, multiple times, with his finger inside of the trigger guard and on the trigger, while manipulating the hammer and while drawing, pointing, and holstering the revolver. "

Yea, because he knows NOTHING about firearms, or firearm safety. Yes, he is an isiot, but his ARMORER was hired to prevent accidents.

 

[Sparky Prep]

I read somewhere that the crew, including the armoror, would do some plinking with live rounds off set. And after reading the charging doc linked above. those live rounds where scattered about all over the set.

THERE is the problem. Period.

 

[rc51stierhoff]

All sort of depends on why loaded ammo on set and proof of who loaded the live ammo…until then, everyone involved is entitled to due process and innocent until proven guilty….could be no one able to prove anything and it could be a mistrial. Could be foul play too or some negligence. Who knows?

 

[GeoHorn]

It's mentioned in the probable cause document linked above and I've seen this multiple times in movies and tv shows.

" The photos and videos clearly show BALDWIN, multiple times, with his finger inside of the trigger guard and on the trigger, while manipulating the hammer and while drawing, pointing, and holstering the revolver. "

Baldwin (or anyone for that matter…but especially an inexperienced or unknowledgeable person) ..when pulling a “fast-draw” with a single-action revolver…may inadvertently grab the grip and, with the finger inside the trigger-guard, may already be squeezing the trigger…so that the additional action of cocking the hammer and releasing the hammer…. will allow the hammer to fall and strike the primer of the cartridge…Without the Operator being cognizant of the trigger already-activated…. And therefore he may not believe he subsequently added additional “pull” on the trigger.
This is how Baldwin may be of the legitimate belief he did not “pull” the trigger (for the purpose of discharge.) I believe he had the trigger activated… but he may not have realized it.

 

[mcmxi]

Baldwin (or anyone for that matter…but especially an inexperienced or unknowledgeable person) ..when pulling a “fast-draw” with a single-action revolver…may inadvertently grab the grip and, with the finger inside the trigger-guard, may already be squeezing the trigger…so that the additional action of cocking the hammer and releasing the hammer…. will allow the hammer to fall and strike the primer of the cartridge…Without the Operator being cognizant of the trigger already-activated…. And therefore he may not believe he subsequently added additional “pull” on the trigger.
This is how Baldwin may be of the legitimate belief he did not “pull” the trigger (for the purpose of discharge.) I believe he had the trigger activated… but he may not have realized it.

This is a reasonable assumption. Winchester Model 1897 pump action shotguns can be fired multiple times simply by holding the trigger down and cycling the action. This is a well-know CAS trick. Baldwin might genuinely not have realized that he caused the revolver to fire. It's an awful situation with a great deal of associated stress and trauma. It won't be hard for his team to show that he was in shock and likely to say just about anything.

There are a number of references to Baldwin being a producer for the film but what about Joel Souza the director and also the other person shot that day. Is he facing charges for letting the armorer do a repeatedly abysmal job that cost the life of Ms. Hutchins? Ultimately it's the director that is the CEO of the entire production right?

 

[GeoHorn]

Pretty sure he was talking about: Anthony S. Fauci

I don’t “get” the hatred for Fauci. He’s a bore.… but he’s a typically-methodical-professorial scientist just doing what his job description requires of him.
He was demonized by the previous-occupant and so sycophants took-on a public lynch-mob mentality against the man without regard to the requirements of his job and the notoriety the news media gave him.

 

[D2Cat]

When the incident first occurred it was reported a few of those involved in the movie were "plinking" off the set in the nearby area for fun. Maybe it will be on Court TV and all their analyst can sort it out.

I do think it would be fitting for Saturday Night Live to use this incident to show the stupidity they enjoy trying to point out.

 

[GeoHorn]

All sort of depends on why loaded ammo on set and proof of who loaded the live ammo…until then, everyone involved is entitled to due process and innocent until proven guilty….could be no one able to prove anything and it could be a mistrial. Could be foul play too or some negligence. Who knows?

I’ve wondered about that. If Baldwin had enemy(s) on the set….
(Several had already angrily-resigned making safety-claims… a little revenge perhaps..? (not suggesting a vengeful person would expect or desire a death to occur…but an embarassing discharge perhaps caught on-camera..?)

 

[Alfred_2345]

as far as i can tell they didnt point out any actual laws that he broke

Uh its actually right there on the last page:
"Probable cause exists that BALDWIN committed involuntary manslaughter contrary to and
defined in NMSA 30-2-3 “Manslaughter” “...in the commission of a lawful act which might
produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection or during the
unlawful act not amounting to a felony, to wit: Negligent use of a deadly weapon."

I don't think anyone has stated that he murdered someone but 'intent' is not required for involuntary manslaughter.

 

[Alfred_2345]

It's a statement of probable cause and nothing more. The prosecution is going to have to prove all of the assertions,

I agree and pointed out that it was one sided when I posted the original link to the document.

I would be surprised if they "made up" the supposed standard practices. If they did then Baldwins lawyer won't have a problem getting an acquittal. (And the DA/investigators should be charged with making false statements.)

The argument in this thread seems to be between does he or does he not carry responsibility for the death. I am not arguing "legally" (the jury will make that decision) but anyone who handles a firearm has the ultimate responsibility much like the captain of a ship or plane. This is why there is mandatory firearms safety training for those that handle firearms on movie sets.

 

[Alfred_2345]

Is he facing charges for letting the armorer do a repeatedly abysmal job that cost the life of Ms. Hutchins? Ultimately it's the director that is the CEO of the entire production right?

That is the way I read it. Not only did he violate safety protocols as an actor, as producer he ignored/allow numerous safety violations to occur.

You previous referenced a Wiki article about Weapons Masters and posted the "the rules of the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers" which the PRODUCER (Baldwin) should have been making sure were being followed.

Postscript: I thought I had seen someone asking about the 1st assistant director and the armorer. I believe they are both facing similar charges but have not researched it. This would follow the logic of the Baldwin charges.

 

[Mark_BX25D]

The idea that actors should comply with firearms safety rules on set as you'd expect to see in hunting camp, at the range, in your home, in LE, in the military etc., is

It's perfectly reasonable to expect every person who handles a firearm to check it personally, not just take the word of some "expert". It's also perfectly reasonable to have live rounds FAR away from a set.

 

[mcmxi]

That is the way I read it. Not only did he violate safety protocols as an actor, as producer he ignored/allow numerous safety violations to occur.

You previous referenced a Wiki article about Weapons Masters and posted the "the rules of the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers" which the PRODUCER (Baldwin) should have been making sure were being followed.

I don't know exactly what the role of the producer is on a movie set but usually they're the ones that help to secure funding based on the number of names in the credits listed at "producer" or "executive producer". Why isn't the director responsible for making sure that rules are followed on set? Oh that's right ... he was a victim!

I think the NM First Circuit Court is in for a very bumpy and expensive ride and I wouldn't be surprised if the embarrassment results in jobs changing hands.

 

[mcmxi]

It's perfectly reasonable to expect every person who handles a firearm to check it personally, not just take the word of some "expert". It's also perfectly reasonable to have live rounds FAR away from a set.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. Most of us don't have paid personal armorers to handle firearms safety for us, so it's up to us to take care of that. My neighbors tenant stopped by this afternoon to ask about purchasing a suppressor or two. We walked out to his truck and he proceeded to unzip a rifle bag and hand me an AR15. The magazine was out, he didn't point it at me, but he didn't clear the rifle and show me that it was safe before handing it to me. I didn't make a big deal of it but I pulled back on the charging handle, locked the bolt back and visually checked the chamber. I handed it back to him in that state.

I could have got on my soapbox but I didn't. I just did what I always do and allowed him the chance to observe and learn, or not. He knows where I work and what I do and maybe that will influence him, again, maybe not. The bottom line is that it's far more important to me what I do and what my neighbor or friends do with firearms in my vicinity and that's what I focus on. This Baldwin situation will most likely lead to stricter rules and regulations on movie sets, but I very much doubt Baldwin will be convicted.

In summary, because there are paid professional armorers on set, actors should not have to follow the same set of safety rules that we follow because it's not expedient, efficient or cost effective. Actors are allowed and required to violate the safety rules that we are expected to follow. I would NEVER point a firearm at someone whom I was not prepared to shoot, but I'm not an actor.

 

[Alfred_2345]

I don't know exactly what the role of the producer is on a movie set

I don't really know myself but a quick skim of Wikipedea seems to suggest that the producer is the one in overall charge. The Probable Cause statement strongly implies that. My arguements are based on that interpritation. If that is incorrect then.....

 

[mcmxi]

I don't really know myself but a quick skim of Wikipedea seems to suggest that the producer is the one in overall charge. The Probable Cause statement strongly implies that. My arguements are based on that interpritation. If that is incorrect then.....

I don't know either but it will surely be a point of discussion in the trial ... assuming there is one.


Producer duties and responsibilities

Selecting topics and scripts for plays, commercials, shows and films. Auditioning and selecting cast members along with state or film crews. Approving the financial and design aspects of a production.

Producers will come up with story ideas and hire writers or choose and secure rights to scripts. This is known as 'optioning' a script. They decide on the scale and budget of the film and source financing from investors, studios and distributors.

 

[motionclone]

Uh its actually right there on the last page:
"Probable cause exists that BALDWIN committed involuntary manslaughter contrary to and
defined in NMSA 30-2-3 “Manslaughter” “...in the commission of a lawful act which might
produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection or during the
unlawful act not amounting to a felony, to wit: Negligent use of a deadly weapon."

I don't think anyone has stated that he murdered someone but 'intent' is not required for involuntary manslaughter.

And the Prosecusions argument behind that is that he broke a bunch of well established protocols and safety practices. Not any actual law violations

 

[Alfred_2345]

Producer duties and responsibilities

It additionally states:
"Within the production process, a producer can oversee, arrange, manage, and begin every aspect of production. They are typically involved in every stage of the overall production process"

Now that I think about it, it may be a big part of the trial. What did he have direct responsibility for, what did he delegate? Did he hire the armorer? Was there a Safety Manager (other than the 1st AD)?

The jury will have the ultimate responsibility to make the determination. Let us hope that the jury is intelligent, impartial, and not swayed by the power of the state or the celeberity status of the defendant and returns a just verdict.