Alec Baldwin facing prison and shouldnt be.

lynnmor

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Are you speaking of the Previous Occupant..? …the one who chose to ignore the pandemic-action-plan already in-place by HIS predecessor..? … by ignoring and pooh-pooh-ing ..thereby promoting it by helping it to expand and BECOME a pandemic..?
The same guy who secretly went and got vaxxed but encouraged others to avoid vax…. and then when he left office …Bragged that the vaccine was created during HIS administration…??

Or are you speaking of the Current-Occupant..?.. who did not “promote” a pandemic…but fought it by trying to educate the public….and saw to it that the expenditures already made were actually Paid For?

(now…where’s my nomex-suit..? ) :unsure:
Perhaps some education is in order.
Fauci is paid more than the president
 
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GreensvilleJay

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Did Clint Eastwood check his pistols every time he filmed? Ill bet not.

I don't know but he did NOT KILL anyone using a firearm on a movie set.
 

fried1765

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The 2nd Amendment (which I’m sure you and I both favor) does not require anyone to be knowledgable about gun handling.

There are uncountable instances of civil laws which have been enacted to make up for the deficiencies of the Constitution. Training, certification, registration/licensing, and mandatory insurance with regard to firearms has certain attraction.

I know what the 2nd Amndmt says… yet the Fed. Govt/BATF has already abridged that when they required me to pay a tax and pass a background check/fingerprinting and interview with a BATF assignee before I could own a Class-3 weapon. (full-auto for those that don’t know that classification)

I know friends and other persons who either do …or favor… secretly owning such weapons because they believe their 2nd Amndt rights are violated by that Act. They also fear “the gov’t” may some day show up at their door to confiscate them.

To no avail I try to tell them, that in almost 40 years I have never even been ASKED about them by the gov’t or any other entity. (Yes, ”them”…plural.)
There have been no…zero… no massacres using Class-3 weapons …largely because there is a record of who owns what and where….and Class-3 owners don’t want any trouble over them. As long as unidentified persons can walk into a gun-show, pay cash, and walk out with a gun…as well as other loop-holes…. we’re going to have this problem.

As for the present-day hysteria over AR-15 types…it’s a simple matter: Move such weapons into the Class-3 category and give everyone one-year to register/license ..and INSURE IT for Liability…. or deliver it to someone who will.

As for the argument that “registration creates confiscation” …or that licensing violates the 2nd Amdmt… or that Gun Ownership should therefore remain Anonymous… that also has a simple solution:

Whenever you go renew your drivers license you will notice that there is often a uniformed officer sitting idle nearby ..playing on his computer or reading…daydreaming. He hates that duty. It’s boring. Why is he there instead of out on the streets?
He’s there (or in a back-room) because when you are dealing with the clerk….there is a BACKGROUND CHECK being run on you….. to see if any outstanding Warrants address you…. and he is there to ARREST you.

The POINT is: that since the background-check is already being run on you…there is NO ADDITIONAL COST to determine if you are a felon, mentally-defective, etc…. (those are already checked anyway)…. So now they could stamp your new drivers-license with a “G” …for Gun-Ownership/Purchase-Approval…. just like an “M” or whatever is for a Motorcycle, etc.

Now when you go to the gun-store or show… or even if a private transaction… all a seller has to do is see your I.D. (something which should already occur if to comply with the residency-requirement law)…and if that “G” is there complete the transaction…if if the “G” is NOT-present…to deny the sale.

If the cop stops you on the street because you resemble the bank robber he’s looking for….or for any other reason…..and you have a gun…and no “G” on your I.D…. then that alone is sufficient for an arrest.
However, if you have the “G” on your I.D. … and you are being arrested for suspected robbery…the cop/jailer uses an ordinary Teacher’s hole-punch to Remove the “G”…until it has been proven you are NOT the robber. You will have your replacement I.D. re-issued which will contain the appropriate “G”, if applicable.

{EDIT} BTW,…a ”G” on a persons I.D. does not identify a gun-owner.…so no one would lose anonymity… nor would the lack of a “G” identify a felon or other…. because one can request the ”G” to be excluded if that is so-desired by personal choice.}

As a gun-owner, enthusiast, and 2nd Amdmt supporter…I have no problem with such a system.
I also have no problem with mandatory firearms liability insurance …just like automobiles.
The need for insurance-coverage will cause owners to be cognizant of their obligations to keep them away from children, properly stored & locked-up, and guard against theft and unauthorized use by others.

OK. Now I’ve gone and done it. (stepping down off the soapbox)
Have lived in several states, and have never had, nor heard of, a "G' on a drivers license.
 

fried1765

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EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO HANDLES A FIREARM IS FULLY RESPONSIBLE FOR SHOOTING A PERSON WITH THAT FIREARM.

  • Every person is responsible to ensure that the weapon is handled in a safe manner. There is NO room for, "Duh, Fred said it wasn't loaded."
  • Every person is responsible to keep his finger off the trigger until he is ready to fire the weapon.
  • Every person is responsible to keep the weapon pointed in a safe direction at all times.
  • The Producer (Baldwin) is responsible for everything that happens on that set.
  • The Producer (Baldwin) is responsible for ensuring that the set is operated in a safe manner.
  • The Producer (Baldwin) is responsible for hiring a competent Armorer.
  • The Producer (Baldwin) is responsible for ensuring that everyone is properly trained on the handling of firearms.

  1. Baldwin was completely irresponsible in every possible way.
  2. He hired someone with almost NO knowledge of guns and made her the Armorer, because real armorers cost real money.
  3. He allowed all manner of grossly unsafe fooling around with loaded guns on set, so much that several people quit because they knew someone was likely to get hurt.
  4. There should not have been a live round anywhere on that set, but "prop" guns were being used with live ammo.

Had any ordinary person (meaning, not a celebrity) been this grossly negligent and killed someone, he'd have been convicted and sentenced by the time Baldwin was charged.

He is guilty of being a childish, irresponsible idiot, he killed someone, and he belongs in prison for a long time.

This was not an "accident", and this was not the Armorer's fault.

This was manslaughter, by Baldwin and nobody else.


+ 1...... "childish, irresponsible, idiot" !!!!
The word "arrogant" belongs in there also!
 
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Mark_BX25D

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Did Clint Eastwood check his pistols every time he filmed? Ill bet not.
I'll be he did. They had REAL armorers and REAL training on those sets, and they didn't play with guns like a bunch of children lacking adult supervision.
 
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Mark_BX25D

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it's completely unrealistic to expect an actor to check the safety of any firearm that he or she is handed on a movie set.

NO IT IS NOT!

That's the equivalent of saying that it's unreasonable to expect pilots to stay sober when flying an aircraft.


It takes less than two minutes to teach someone to check a firearm, and less than two seconds to actually check a firearm. It should be like breathing. You just do it.

EVERY TIME!


This has nothing to do with "experts".
 
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mcmxi

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NO IT IS NOT!

That's the equivalent of saying that it's unreasonable to expect pilots to stay sober when flying an aircraft.


It takes less than two minutes to teach someone to check a firearm, and less than two seconds to actually check a firearm. It should be like breathing. You just do it.

EVERY TIME!


This has nothing to do with "experts".
I don't agree. The idea that actors should comply with firearms safety rules on set as you'd expect to see in hunting camp, at the range, in your home, in LE, in the military etc., is ludicrous because all of the safety rules are violated from the get go.

Actors don't always keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction.
Actors don't treat all firearms as if they were loaded.
Actors point firearms at things they don't want or intend to kill.
Actors have their fingers on the trigger before they're ready to fire.
Actors don't know what's beyond their "target" when they're on set.

How can you apply recommended firearms safety rules to a profession that violates all of them in the course of their work? All movie sets can hope for is that the armorer on set knows what they're doing and that they make sure all reasonable safety standards are met.

Read the definition of a weapons master or armorer.

 
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mcmxi

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Read this from the link above and below .... and remind me again why it's the responsibility of the actor to check the firearms before the take.



In some areas the weapons master must be a licensed armourer when firearms are used as props.[2]

As of 1993, when Brandon Lee was killed by a gun believed to be loaded with blanks, the rules of the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers required:[3]

  • Someone certified for the weapon in use be present at all times
  • Firearms must be checked before and after each take
  • Firearms must be cleaned daily
  • Firearms must be stored securely by the props master when not in use
  • Loaded guns must never be pointed at anyone
  • Protective clothing must be worn by everyone nearby when blanks are fired
  • If firearms are to be fired directly at the camera, a plexiglass shield must be erected
  • Only the person certified for the weapon or someone under their direct supervision may hand a weapon to an actor
 

Flintknapper

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Are you speaking of the Previous Occupant..? …the one who chose to ignore the pandemic-action-plan already in-place by HIS predecessor..? … by ignoring and pooh-pooh-ing ..thereby promoting it by helping it to expand and BECOME a pandemic..?
The same guy who secretly went and got vaxxed but encouraged others to avoid vax…. and then when he left office …Bragged that the vaccine was created during HIS administration…??

Or are you speaking of the Current-Occupant..?.. who did not “promote” a pandemic…but fought it by trying to educate the public….and saw to it that the expenditures already made were actually Paid For?

(now…where’s my nomex-suit..? ) :unsure:
Pretty sure he was talking about: Anthony S. Fauci
 

GreensvilleJay

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re: Actors have their fingers on the trigger before they're ready to fire

really ? I've seen a LOT of NCIS and ALL their trigger fingers are flat on the side of the firearm NEVER curled around the trigger. It's something I've noticed over the years since my great grandfather was a gunsmith,one well respected by both gun owners and the police, especially the chief.

I have no problem with actors abusing the 5 commandments of gun safety AFTER they HAVE checked the weapon to CONFIRM it's NOT loaded with LETHAL bullets.

Man can you hear the crys if he'd put the gun to his head and fired it off ??
 

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The idea that actors should comply with firearms safety rules on set as you'd expect to see in hunting camp, at the range, in your home, in LE, in the military etc., is ludicrous because all of the safety rules are violated from the get go.
He, as the actor, he did not learn/comply with the safety rules for use of firearms on a movie set. As a producer, he also did not follow/enforce movie industry standard safety protocols. Read below.

The following quotes are from the Probable Cause statement (itialics are direct quotes, bold emphasis mine)
"Statements and evidence show BALDWIN was not present for required firearms training prior to the commencement of filming." and "A training session for at least an hour or more in length was scheduled, but the actual training consisted of only approximately 30 minutes as according to REED, BALDWIN was distracted and talking on his cell phone to his family during the training." (page 3)
"Evidence further shows that BALDWIN, as an actor who has extensive experience in the film industry involving firearm(s), failed to demand at least two (2) safety checks between the armorer and himself and witnessing the handling of firearms by a first assistant director. Standard protocol is the armorer is to show the actor the firearm, pull the bullets out in front of the actor, and demonstrate there are no live rounds (but dummies) in the firearm. BALDWIN knows this is standard safety protocol as he has mentioned it in media interviews and in law enforcement interviews." (page 4)

As the producer he also had responsibilities:
"The on-set and limited time of training does not comport to industry standards and evidence shows BALDWIN was in a position to manage, oversee, commence, and require safety training to industry standards. BALDWIN’S failure to ensure minimum standards were met is considered reckless in the industry." (page 5)
"In his producer's position, the evidence indicates BALDWIN also did not at to address the lack of daily safety meetings that are required to be conducted by the 1st assistant director." ... "These meetings should, pursuant to standard protocols, be conducted in the morning prior to the beginning of the day, where all members of the cast and crew should be required to attend. " (page 7)

The document also lists two prior negligent / unintentional gun discharges on the set and the previous camera crew resigned over safety issues (along with other issues) is a clear indication the things were out of control on the set and Baldwin as producer had a duty to address the problem.

"On the day of the shooting alone, evidence shows that no less than a dozen acts, or omissions of recklessness, occurred in the short time prior to lunch and the time of the shooting, and this does not include the reckless handling of the firearm by BALDWIN. BALDWIN, by act or omission or failure to act in his position as a producer directly contributed and/or failed to mitigate ‘numerous reckless and dangerous actions during a very short time period.
Finally, industry standards, protocols, and common firearm safety procedures on movie sets require the armorer, after conducting a safety check with the 1st assistant director, to conduct a second safety check with the actor to be handling the firearm. This reckless violation of standards and firearm safety occurred two (2) times leading up to the shooting, and BALDWIN filed to act to mitigate or correct the reckless safety violations, neither in his capacity as actor nor producer.
" (page 9)

There are more damning allegations in the document but the above leave little doubt that Baldwin carries responsibility both as the actor and the producer. PLEASE READ THE DOCUMENT FOR YOURSELF before trying to refute.
 

Mark_BX25D

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Read this from the link above and below .... and remind me again why it's the responsibility of the actor to check the firearms before the take.

Because he's handling a deadly weapon. That's all that is needed to establish that responsibility.

In case you hadn't notices, a woman died because Baldwin "wasn't responsible".

Well, but we've known that about him for a long time.
 

Biker1mike

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He, as the actor, he did not learn/comply with the safety rules for use of firearms on a movie set. As a producer, he also did not follow/enforce movie industry standard safety protocols. Read below.

The following quotes are from the Probable Cause statement (itialics are direct quotes, bold emphasis mine)
"Statements and evidence show BALDWIN was not present for required firearms training prior to the commencement of filming." and "A training session for at least an hour or more in length was scheduled, but the actual training consisted of only approximately 30 minutes as according to REED, BALDWIN was distracted and talking on his cell phone to his family during the training." (page 3)
"Evidence further shows that BALDWIN, as an actor who has extensive experience in the film industry involving firearm(s), failed to demand at least two (2) safety checks between the armorer and himself and witnessing the handling of firearms by a first assistant director. Standard protocol is the armorer is to show the actor the firearm, pull the bullets out in front of the actor, and demonstrate there are no live rounds (but dummies) in the firearm. BALDWIN knows this is standard safety protocol as he has mentioned it in media interviews and in law enforcement interviews." (page 4)

As the producer he also had responsibilities:
"The on-set and limited time of training does not comport to industry standards and evidence shows BALDWIN was in a position to manage, oversee, commence, and require safety training to industry standards. BALDWIN’S failure to ensure minimum standards were met is considered reckless in the industry." (page 5)
"In his producer's position, the evidence indicates BALDWIN also did not at to address the lack of daily safety meetings that are required to be conducted by the 1st assistant director." ... "These meetings should, pursuant to standard protocols, be conducted in the morning prior to the beginning of the day, where all members of the cast and crew should be required to attend. " (page 7)

The document also lists two prior negligent / unintentional gun discharges on the set and the previous camera crew resigned over safety issues (along with other issues) is a clear indication the things were out of control on the set and Baldwin as producer had a duty to address the problem.

"On the day of the shooting alone, evidence shows that no less than a dozen acts, or omissions of recklessness, occurred in the short time prior to lunch and the time of the shooting, and this does not include the reckless handling of the firearm by BALDWIN. BALDWIN, by act or omission or failure to act in his position as a producer directly contributed and/or failed to mitigate ‘numerous reckless and dangerous actions during a very short time period.
Finally, industry standards, protocols, and common firearm safety procedures on movie sets require the armorer, after conducting a safety check with the 1st assistant director, to conduct a second safety check with the actor to be handling the firearm. This reckless violation of standards and firearm safety occurred two (2) times leading up to the shooting, and BALDWIN filed to act to mitigate or correct the reckless safety violations, neither in his capacity as actor nor producer.
" (page 9)

There are more damning allegations in the document but the above leave little doubt that Baldwin carries responsibility both as the actor and the producer. PLEASE READ THE DOCUMENT FOR YOURSELF before trying to refute.
To quote the great Mister Carlin:
It was a sin for you to wanna feel up Ellen. It was a sin for you to plan to feel up Ellen. It was a sin for you to figure out a place to feel up Ellen. It was a sin to take Ellen to the place to feel her up. It was a sin to try to feel her up and it was a sin to feel her up. There were six sins in one feel, man!

I spent 24 months on a special grand jury. I found any act can lead to many many charges.

My bet. He pleads nolo contendere and it all moves on.
 

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re:
Did Clint Eastwood check his pistols every time he filmed? Ill bet not.

I don't know but he did NOT KILL anyone using a firearm on a movie set.
Maybe Eastwoods Armoror wasnt incompetent like Baldwins was
 
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mcmxi

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PLEASE READ THE DOCUMENT FOR YOURSELF before trying to refute.
It's a statement of probable cause and nothing more. The prosecution is going to have to prove all of the assertions, many of which are not laws, but rather supposed standard practices. They'll have to convince a jury of their position.

They've already set themselves up for failure with the statement ....

"BALDWIN knew the first rule of gun safety is never point a gun at someone you don’t intend on shooting"

... and yet actors do this all the time in movies. Most reasonable jurors will see this to be true.

Good luck getting this to stick!
 

Sparky Prep

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I don't know about jail time, but he bears some responsibility in my opinion. There are checks and balances (according to my old neighbor in the movie industry‐ Law & Order SVU) that should be followed. The actor is supposed to be present when the armorer performs the final check to determine which firearm it is; prop, blanks or live fire. The actor is supposed to verify the weapon when they take possession. And of course, you never put your booger hook on the loud button until you are intending to fire.
Just a quick question regarding your post. Why on Earth would there EVER be a live-fire gun on a movie set? Real question, and genuinely curious.

There NEVER should have been live ammo within a MILE of a movie set where firearms were being used. I place the blame on the armorer, not the actor. Believe me, I am no fan of Alec Baldwin, his politics, or his opinions on firearms, but he is an ACTOR. I have no expectation of him knowing ANYTHING about guns. ( I know this because of his stance on "gun control"). However, a professional armorer was hired and PAYED to ensure firearm safety on a set of people who know NOTHING about firearms. It would be a tough job, with a lot of responsibility, yes, but that is what you hired on for.
 
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mcmxi

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re: Actors have their fingers on the trigger before they're ready to fire

really ? I've seen a LOT of NCIS and ALL their trigger fingers are flat on the side of the firearm NEVER curled around the trigger.
It's mentioned in the probable cause document linked above and I've seen this multiple times in movies and tv shows.

" The photos and videos clearly show BALDWIN, multiple times, with his finger inside of the trigger guard and on the trigger, while manipulating the hammer and while drawing, pointing, and holstering the revolver. "
 

motionclone

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He, as the actor, he did not learn/comply with the safety rules for use of firearms on a movie set. As a producer, he also did not follow/enforce movie industry standard safety protocols. Read below.

The following quotes are from the Probable Cause statement (itialics are direct quotes, bold emphasis mine)
"Statements and evidence show BALDWIN was not present for required firearms training prior to the commencement of filming." and "A training session for at least an hour or more in length was scheduled, but the actual training consisted of only approximately 30 minutes as according to REED, BALDWIN was distracted and talking on his cell phone to his family during the training." (page 3)
"Evidence further shows that BALDWIN, as an actor who has extensive experience in the film industry involving firearm(s), failed to demand at least two (2) safety checks between the armorer and himself and witnessing the handling of firearms by a first assistant director. Standard protocol is the armorer is to show the actor the firearm, pull the bullets out in front of the actor, and demonstrate there are no live rounds (but dummies) in the firearm. BALDWIN knows this is standard safety protocol as he has mentioned it in media interviews and in law enforcement interviews." (page 4)

As the producer he also had responsibilities:
"The on-set and limited time of training does not comport to industry standards and evidence shows BALDWIN was in a position to manage, oversee, commence, and require safety training to industry standards. BALDWIN’S failure to ensure minimum standards were met is considered reckless in the industry." (page 5)
"In his producer's position, the evidence indicates BALDWIN also did not at to address the lack of daily safety meetings that are required to be conducted by the 1st assistant director." ... "These meetings should, pursuant to standard protocols, be conducted in the morning prior to the beginning of the day, where all members of the cast and crew should be required to attend. " (page 7)

The document also lists two prior negligent / unintentional gun discharges on the set and the previous camera crew resigned over safety issues (along with other issues) is a clear indication the things were out of control on the set and Baldwin as producer had a duty to address the problem.

"On the day of the shooting alone, evidence shows that no less than a dozen acts, or omissions of recklessness, occurred in the short time prior to lunch and the time of the shooting, and this does not include the reckless handling of the firearm by BALDWIN. BALDWIN, by act or omission or failure to act in his position as a producer directly contributed and/or failed to mitigate ‘numerous reckless and dangerous actions during a very short time period.
Finally, industry standards, protocols, and common firearm safety procedures on movie sets require the armorer, after conducting a safety check with the 1st assistant director, to conduct a second safety check with the actor to be handling the firearm. This reckless violation of standards and firearm safety occurred two (2) times leading up to the shooting, and BALDWIN filed to act to mitigate or correct the reckless safety violations, neither in his capacity as actor nor producer.
" (page 9)

There are more damning allegations in the document but the above leave little doubt that Baldwin carries responsibility both as the actor and the producer. PLEASE READ THE DOCUMENT FOR YOURSELF before trying to refute.
Several pages long and as far as i can tell they didnt point out any actual laws that he broke. Just pointed out many times how his crew including him, didnt follow "protocols and procedures, safety standards" etc.

Sure sounds like his production operation took a cowboy approach to safety....according to the prosecution anyway.
 

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Have lived in several states, and have never had, nor heard of, a "G' on a drivers license.
Re-read the post. It was a suggestion that every state I.D./drivers-license authorize with a “G” (or something similar) in the restrictions-box that the holder is not prohibited from gun ownership or possession.
I have presented this idea to several of the politicians I flew as a gov’t pilot…and the most common answer I rec’d was “Where’s the money? You‘ve got to follow the money for legislation to occur, and there appears to be no obvious money-incentive to enact such a law.” (or words to that effect).

The use of such a universal notation on an I.D./driver license is not any additional burden than what they are doing already.…therefore there‘s no reason to become additionally-paranoid over it.