Backhoe issue?

[Bryan B]

I traded up to a B2601 with FEL and BH70 backhoe a little over a year ago and overall have been very happy with the tractor. The question I have is with the hydraulics in the backhoe. I find myself having to constantly reset the outriggers while I'm digging. Also, I find that if I turn around and use the FEL to move or get rid of the spoils, it's an absolute necessity to install the retainer pin to keep the boom in place. Otherwise, it leaks down in a very short amount of time and the bucket will even bottom out if at the base of a steep incline. I realize it's a single pump, small hydraulic system. But definitely seems like it bleeds off extremely quickly. If I park it and don't use the pin overnight, the hoe will certainly be resting on the ground in the morning. Is this normal? I've had it in for warranty repair at a very reputable (friend owned) dealer twice. They've told me it is operating correctly. Am I expecting too much? Any feedback on would be very much appreciated.

 

[fried1765]

I traded up to a B2601 with FEL and BH70 backhoe a little over a year ago and overall have been very happy with the tractor. The question I have is with the hydraulics in the backhoe. I find myself having to constantly reset the outriggers while I'm digging. Also, I find that if I turn around and use the FEL to move or get rid of the spoils, it's an absolute necessity to install the retainer pin to keep the boom in place. Otherwise, it leaks down in a very short amount of time and the bucket will even bottom out if at the base of a steep incline. I realize it's a single pump, small hydraulic system. But definitely seems like it bleeds off extremely quickly. If I park it and don't use the pin overnight, the hoe will certainly be resting on the ground in the morning. Is this normal? I've had it in for warranty repair at a very reputable (friend owned) dealer twice. They've told me it is operating correctly. Am I expecting too much? Any feedback on would be very much appreciated.

There are a LOT of B2601 owners on OTT.
I am sure someone will be along to advise you very soon.

 

[85Hokie]

The word normal leave a bit to be desired. Is it "normal" for an engine to burn oil? According to Ford, Gm and all the rest - sure! If not faster than "X" per "x" k miles.

Is it normal for an outrigger to ease down when NOT IN USE? sure ......... but IN USE? NO not normal at all.

Is it normal for the backhoe to swing, or dipper stick fall a bit over time - sure - but the RATE of time you are describing does NOT sound normal. You may need a couple of cylinders rebuilt or seals repaired

 

[brooster]

I have a bh92 and mine can sit for weeks and the out riggers will only drop a couple of inches

 

[lynnmor]

My BH70 leaked down just like yours, my dealer was useless like yours. I took it to another dealer and they rebuilt the boom cylinder and that helped a lot. It still leaks down faster than I like but it is now at least usable. My outriggers haven’t been a problem. My guess is the cheap valves are what is now the problem with the boom, they cheapened them considerably in the last two years or so.

The facility that builds the backhoe needs to be moved to China, with just about everything wrong on mine it is my opinion that those folks don’t deserve a job.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I traded up to a B2601 with FEL and BH70 backhoe a little over a year ago and overall have been very happy with the tractor. The question I have is with the hydraulics in the backhoe. I find myself having to constantly reset the outriggers while I'm digging. Also, I find that if I turn around and use the FEL to move or get rid of the spoils, it's an absolute necessity to install the retainer pin to keep the boom in place. Otherwise, it leaks down in a very short amount of time and the bucket will even bottom out if at the base of a steep incline. I realize it's a single pump, small hydraulic system. But definitely seems like it bleeds off extremely quickly. If I park it and don't use the pin overnight, the hoe will certainly be resting on the ground in the morning. Is this normal? I've had it in for warranty repair at a very reputable (friend owned) dealer twice. They've told me it is operating correctly. Am I expecting too much? Any feedback on would be very much appreciated.

The size of the pump has nothing to do with leakdown.

If the outrigger cylinders are collapsing and there are no external leaks its the spools in the valves leaking. Put a couple check valves on those cylinders and I bet your leak down problem goes away.

Dan

 

[Bryan B]

Thanks to all for the great feedback. Certainly will take all comments into consideration while coming up with a plan moving forward. (How much of a pain in the a$$ do I want to be at the dealer!) I'm new to the site and just with the few responses I've received in such a short amount of time, I feel I'll spend a lot more time here in the future!

 

[Grindstone]

I have the same tractor and BH as you and I am not seeing the same leak down rate that you are describing. When out at work I could leave out the pin and my hoe will stay positioned where I left it while moving short distances, I don't leave it out if I an going to travel a far distance. When the tractor was new to me I did forget to reinstall the pin after shutting it down for the day. When I came back the next day it was lower but no where near the ground.
When you say you have to reset the outriggers while digging are they not staying planted where you put them?

 

[Bryan B]

I have the same tractor and BH as you and I am not seeing the same leak down rate that you are describing. When out at work I could leave out the pin and my hoe will stay positioned where I left it while moving short distances, I don't leave it out if I an going to travel a far distance. When the tractor was new to me I did forget to reinstall the pin after shutting it down for the day. When I came back the next day it was lower but no where near the ground.
When you say you have to reset the outriggers while digging are they not staying planted where you put them?

They leak upward under the weight of the tractor. I periodically have to set them back down into the ground to stabilize the rear end. I do have the tires filled. And maybe combined with the constant bouncing from digging in very rocky ground, I surpass what the cylinders are rated to hold?

 

[TheOldHokie]

They leak upward under the weight of the tractor. I periodically have to set them back down into the ground to stabilize the rear end. I do have the tires filled. And maybe combined with the constant bouncing from digging in very rocky ground, I surpass what the cylinders are rated to hold?

If the outrigger cylinders are retracting fluid is escaping somewhere. If not onto the ground its going back through the valve.

Dan

 

[Henro]

The size of the pump has nothing to do with leakdown.

If the outrigger cylinders are collapsing and there are no external leaks its the spools in the valves leaking. Put a couple check valves on those cylinders and I bet your leak down problem goes away.

Dan

I’m no expert about anything, but I do occasionally grab onto an important concept.

While TheOldHokie doesn’t get into the details, the interesting thing about a hydraulic cylinder is that in order for the piston rod to go into the cylinder the fluid in the cylinder must go somewhere. This is because the rod takes up volume as it enters the cylinder.

The fluid can go outside the cylinder through a leak, or it can go back into the system through the control valve. But it must go somewhere or the piston rod will not enter the cylinder. EVEN IF an internal seal would be missing in an extreme example.

This holds true for the outriggers, boom or whatever cylinder one might question. It is a simple but important thing to understand when evaluating hydraulic cylinder operation.

 

[nbryan]

They leak upward under the weight of the tractor. I periodically have to set them back down into the ground to stabilize the rear end. I do have the tires filled. And maybe combined with the constant bouncing from digging in very rocky ground, I surpass what the cylinders are rated to hold?

I periodically have to lower my BH77 outriggers to stabilize the rear end, but it's not because the outriggers move, but the ground shifting or compressing under them.

You have rocky soil so not likely your issue, but have you a spot on pavement you can raise the rear wheels up from and shut down the tractor in that position? If it's really leaking by a valve that fast you might be able to hear the flow through the valve with the engine off.

At least the actual rate of leak can be determined and minitored in real time.

 

[Bryan B]

I periodically have to lower my BH77 outriggers to stabilize the rear end, but it's not because the outriggers move, but the ground shifting or compressing under them.

You have rocky soil so not likely your issue, but have you a spot on pavement you can raise the rear wheels up from and shut down the tractor in that position? If it's really leaking by a valve that fast you might be able to hear the flow through the valve with the engine off.

At least the actual rate of leak can be determined and minitored in real time.

That's a good idea. I'll give that a try. Thanks!

 

[TheOldHokie]

I periodically have to lower my BH77 outriggers to stabilize the rear end, but it's not because the outriggers move, but the ground shifting or compressing under them.

You have rocky soil so not likely your issue, but have you a spot on pavement you can raise the rear wheels up from and shut down the tractor in that position? If it's really leaking by a valve that fast you might be able to hear the flow through the valve with the engine off.

At least the actual rate of leak can be determined and minitored in real time.

You dont need to hear it. If the cylinder retracts and there is no external leak fluid is flowing backwards into the system.

Dan

 

[lynnmor]

If it's really leaking by a valve that fast you might be able to hear the flow through the valve with the engine off.

Now that is a good idea, it may be a good use for my Harbor Freight stethoscope.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Now that is a good idea, it may be a good use for my Harbor Freight stethoscope.

Let me ask you this. If its not leaking through the valbe where is the excess fluid going?

Dan

 

[lynnmor]

Let me ask you this. If its not leaking through the valbe where is the excess fluid going?

Dan

I guess it wouldn't hurt to try to find which valve, hose and other cylinders that may be involved. I don't know if the flow can be heard, but it might be worth a try.

Just so you know, my leak down continued despite disconnecting all hoses to the tractor, thus taking the tank out of the picture.

 

[nbryan]

You dont need to hear it. If the cylinder retracts and there is no external leak fluid is flowing backwards into the system.

Dan

Sure, but it might be audible, and watching the cyls retract in real time demos how bad it is.

And strictly speaking, fluid is flowing THROUGH the system and the valve(s), not backwards.

And a question, is there only one path for fluid in each of the 2 outrigger valves? Like simply that a valve seal is letting fluid pass, or could a relief valve be stuck open a bit?

Now I think of it, as there's a separate valve for each out-rigger cylinder, then if both are leaking back somehow there's 2 valves gone bad?

Maybe their relief valve is flakey?

 

[TheOldHokie]

Sure, but it might be audible, and watching the cyls retract in real time demos how bad it is.

And strictly speaking, fluid is flowing THROUGH the system and the valve(s), not backwards.

And a question, is there only one path for fluid in each of the 2 outrigger valves? Like simply that a valve seal is letting fluid pass, or could a relief valve be stuck open a bit?

Now I think of it, as there's a separate valve for each out-rigger cylinder, then if both are leaking back somehow there's 2 valves gone bad?

Maybe their relief valve is flakey?

You can measure exactly how bad it is by timing the cylinder movement and doing a simple volume calculation. A good number for spool leakage is 5 cc/minute.

There are separate valves for each outrigger so you have two different leaks.

The work circuits are what is leaking so the only relief that might be a possibility would be a port relief. I would not expect one on the outriggers but I don't know.

Bottom line is there appears to be a reverse flow in that extend circuit. A check valve will stop it.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

I guess it wouldn't hurt to try to find which valve, hose and other cylinders that may be involved. I don't know if the flow can be heard, but it might be worth a try.

Just so you know, my leak down continued despite disconnecting all hoses to the tractor, thus taking the tank out of the picture.

It the outrigger valves. - they are the ones holding the load. Your leak was not in the out riggers was it? And was it extend or retract? Makes a big difference.

Dan