Napa Premium Hydraulic Fluid and Performance - B2150hst 4wd

[NorCalOrange]

I own a B2150hsd 4wd, 24 hp / 20 hp pto, with only 700 hours on it. Bought it used with only 200 hours 20 years ago and immediately changed the hydro fluid with Napa premium due to now knowing the tractors history. I changed hydro fluid again at 400 hours and 600 hours. Each time with Napa premium and replacing filter and cleaning the screen. And yes, the manual calls for 300 hours for hydro fluid replacement.

The past couple years the tractor seems to go a little slower uphill, nothing steep just a moderate grade, with the brush hog attached. Is it possible that less power is hydro fluid related? I can not say this happened right after changing the hydro fluid 100 hours ago but the tractor does feel different the past year or two. And, a few years ago I noticed the hydro pump, or hydro system in general, seems to be a little bit noisier sometimes in hotter weather when raising the brush hog. Admittedly Kubota calls for a 4 ft on the B2150 and I use a 5 ft brush hog.

I researched and found a person changed from Napa premium to TSC premium brand and claimed the tractor had more power, performed better. This could be placebo related or perhaps new oil just performs better.

Anyway, is it possible changing the fluid from Napa to another brand could change the performance, even slightly? Or, the change in performance is relative to the tractor having more hours on it? I am considering going with Chevron 1000 THF or Delvac. It is not cold here so no reason for a synthetic. The last hydro fluid change was 6 years ago. And not to start an oil war regarding Napa products but per VOA's Napa synthetic motor oils are near the bottom when compared to other brand car oils regarding additives and such. Could not find a Napa Premium hydro fluid VOA so have no idea how it actually compares to others. My guess is Mobil and Chevron hydro fluids are also better products than Napa. Not that Napa is bad, does not work, or does not meet spec. I have used Napa 5w/30 and Napa oil filters more than once in my car.

 

[D2Cat]

Since you change the fluid every 200 hours and you're using the machine less then 35 hours a year why are you interested in finding a substitute of the Kubota recommended hyd fluid? Seems like it would answer all your questions, and perhaps your noisier slower machine would be happier!

Go to your dealer and get what you need and help to keep him in business.

 

[Henro]

Since you change the fluid every 200 hours and you're using the machine less then 35 hours a year why are you interested in finding a substitute of the Kubota recommended hyd fluid? Seems like it would answer all your questions, and perhaps your noisier slower machine would be happier!

Go to your dealer and get what you need and help to keep him in business.

I would add one thing to what D2Cat said, that is: What you are seeing now may be the result of deterioration of components within the hydrostatic system due to long term usage of fluids not recommended by Kubota...

Don't know, just speculation. But many here feel that it is risky to use non Kubota fluids in Kubota tractors...as I feel as well.

 

[whitetiger]

Why did you use a non-approved oil in your hydrostat tractor?

I see this monthly, the customer claims they thought they would save a few dollars as they now are facing a $5000. repair.

 

[NorCalOrange]

All:

I get it, oem is the safe bet. That being said, I have zero concern that the perceived less power and slightly noisier hydraulics in hotter weather in a 30 year old tractor, that is not used often, by a guy that is a lot older since buying the tractor 20 years ago, will turn onto a $5,000 repair.

Lets see, how can I say this... Id' rather support the nice, friendly, people at Napa. Some neighbors will tow their Kubotas for over an hour, rather than 10 mins, to get their tractors serviced.

I researched hydro fluids 20 years ago and Napa Premium came up as commonly used with high recommendation.

Please, lets be clear, is anyone committing that SUDT or Kubota-xyz will increase performance and reduce noise compared to Napa premium, Chevron 1000 or Mobile Delvac? As we all know, Kubota does not make their own oil, fluids... but does spec out the requirements. And, their are no "standards" in hydro fluids like engine oils.

 

[fried1765]

All:

I get it, oem is the safe bet. That being said, I have zero concern that the perceived less power and slightly noisier hydraulics in hotter weather in a 30 year old tractor, that is not used often, by a guy that is a lot older since buying the tractor 20 years ago, will turn onto a $5,000 repair.

Lets see, how can I say this... Id' rather support the nice, friendly, people at Napa. Some neighbors will tow their Kubotas for over an hour, rather than 10 mins, to get their tractors serviced.

I researched hydro fluids 20 years ago and Napa Premium came up as commonly used with high recommendation.

Please, lets be clear, is anyone committing that SUDT or Kubota-xyz will increase performance and reduce noise compared to Napa premium, Chevron 1000 or Mobile Delvac? As we all know, Kubota does not make their own oil, fluids... but does spec out the requirements. And, their are no "standards" in hydro fluids like engine oils.

So.......since we all will agree that Kubota does spec. out their SUDT-2, and there are others who CLAIM to meet Kubota specs.
Who polices the Kubota specs. for the "equivalent" hyd. oils made by others?

 

[lmichael]

Still don't know why for such a VERY small expenditure one would simply not use Kubota S-UDT2 vs a generic. I see people on the Toyota boards complaining much the same way because they threw in a "do it all" transmission fluid now their trans isn't right, or they don't use recommended synthetic engine oil and they complain about oil consumption or ruined VVT gears that likely all could have been avoided by simply following directions

 

[NorCalOrange]

Again, no one is committing

So.......since we all will agree that Kubota does spec. out their SUDT-2, and there are others who CLAIM to meet Kubota specs.
Who polices the Kubota specs. for the "equivalent" hyd. oils made by others?

 

[TheOldHokie]

So.......since we all will agree that Kubota does spec. out their SUDT-2, and there are others who CLAIM to meet Kubota specs.
Who polices the Kubota specs. for the "equivalent" hyd. oils made by others?

Not many that claim SUDT2 performance and those that do are as expensive as if not more so than Kubota.

Most premium UTTO''s are however equivalent to Kubota UDT and should perform just as well in any Kubota HST of any vintage. The B2150 HST actually predates the introduction of SUDT and the factory recommended transmission fluid was UDT. The WSM also provides a list of recommended alternative UTTO products from ARCO, Chevron, Exxon, Phillips, Shell, Texaco, Union, Gulf, and Mobil. I am confident the NAPA fluid is on par with any of them.

And of course we have the knee jerk reaction with no real proof - if you are having a problem using a generic UTTO it must be the fluid. Never any problems when using UDT or SUDT2


Dan

 

[NorCalOrange]

Not many that claim SUDT2 performance and those that do are as expensive as if not more so than Kubota.

Most premium UTTO''s are equivalent to Kubota UDT and should perform just as well in any Kubota HST. The factory recommended transmission fluid in the B2150 was actually UDT and the WSM provides a list of alternative UTTO products from ARCO, Chevron, Exxon, Phillips, Shell, Texaco, Union, Gulf, and Mobil. I am confident the NAPA fluid is on par with any of them.

And of course we have the knee jerk reaction with no real proof - if you are having a problem using a generic UTTO it must be the fluid. Never any problems when using UDT or SUDT2

Dan

View attachment 87993

Thank you for posting that. Its been 20 years since I researched hydro fluid and that chart brings back a vague memory...

A possible advantage of trying Chevron 1000 or Delvac is they are rated as 10w-30 and Napa Premium is rated as 10w-20. Again, their may be absolutely nothing wrong and my memory is imagining things. It just seems a little slower going up a grade and sometimes a little noisier. Not gear whine, a possible pump noise lifting the 5 ft rotary mower in hotter weather.

The fluid does only have 110 hours of use but is over 6 years old. If their is a chance replacing it makes things a little better, Im ok with replacing the fluid early.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thank you for posting that. Its been 20 years since I researched hydro fluid and that chart brings back a vague memory...

A possible advantage of trying Chevron 1000 or Delvac is they are rated as 10w-30 and Napa Premium is rated as 10w-20. Again, their may be absolutely nothing wrong and my memory is imagining things. It just seems a little slower going up a grade and sometimes a little noisier. Not gear whine, a possible pump noise lifting the 5 ft rotary mower in hotter weather.

The fluid does only have 110 hours of use but is over 6 years old. If their is a chance replacing it makes things a little better, Im ok with replacing the fluid early.

Well FWIW Kubota SUDT2 is effectively a xxW20 oil. I am surprised the NAPA oil is described as 10W20. Its supplied by Warren Unilube and their own premium UTTO is the defacto "standard" 10W30. Unlike Warren NAPA does not provide an actual product data sheet for their oil .....

Dan

 

[NorCalOrange]

Well FWIW Kubota SUDT2 is effectively a xxW20 oil. I am surprised the NAPA oil is described as 10W20. Its supplied by Warren Unilube and their own premium UTTO is the defacto "standard" 10W30. Unlike Warren NAPA does not provide an actual product data sheet for their oil .....

Dan

I have searched for a NAPA hydro fluid VOA and data sheet with no success and am curious if it is actually 10w-20 as advertised:

"Premium HD Hydraulic & Transmission Fluid Features Multi-Viscosity 10w-20 Fluid Suitable For Year-Round Use..."


Way back in the original post are the below sentences. TSC hydro fluid is rated as a 10w-30 and perhaps their is some validity to the below experience if Napa is a 10w-20.


"I researched and found a person changed from Napa premium to TSC premium brand and claimed the tractor had more power, performed better. This could be placebo related or perhaps new oil just performs better. "

 

[TheOldHokie]

I have searched for a NAPA hydro fluid VOA and data sheet with no success and am curious if it is actually 10w-20 as advertised:

"Premium HD Hydraulic & Transmission Fluid Features Multi-Viscosity 10w-20 Fluid Suitable For Year-Round Use..."


Way back in the original post are the below sentences. TSC hydro fluid is rated as a 10w-30 and perhaps their is some validity to the below experience if Napa is a 10w-20.


"I researched and found a person changed from Napa premium to TSC premium brand and claimed the tractor had more power, performed better. This could be placebo related or perhaps new oil just performs better. "

First I doubt changing to a different brand of generic UTTO is going to make any noticeable difference.in the performance of your tractor. You MIGHT and I stress might see some improvement using a higher perfomance product like SUDT2.

Now back to the specific issue of that NAPA product. After doing a bit more research I suspect I know what is in that NAPA pail. Be forwarned its detailed and more than most people want to know.

Lets start with the typical properties of a premium commercial UTTO:

Kinematic viscosity: 9.4 cSt @100C
Kinematic viscosity: 55 cSt @ 40C
Viscosity index: 140

Those numbers vary slightly from product to product and across production runs but these oils are generally described as 10W30 multigrades. However the KV100 is right on the break point (9.3 cSt) between grade 20 and 30 so a product formulated with a KV100 of 9.2 would techincally be a grade 20 oil. The difference in performance would be insignificant.

Turning now to the NAPA oil. It is made by Warren Unilube so lets have a look at the PDS for their MultiTrac product

Kinematic viscosity: 9.2 cSt @100C
Kinematic viscosity: 55 cSt @ 40C
Viscosity index: >=140

That KV100 puts it just under the threshold (9.3 cSt) for grade 30 and their product datasheet describes it as a 10W20 multigrade lubricant. I would say its a very good bet the NAPA product is just a house branded pail of Warren Unilube MultiTrac.

Turning to UDT (not SUDT) Kubota's numbers for it are:

Kinematic viscosity: >=8.8 cSt @100C
Kinematic viscosity: <= 55 cSt @ 40C
Brookfield vscosity: <= 4800 cP @ -20C
Brookfield viscosity: <= 70000 cP @ -40C
Viscosity index: >=137

So it also could/should be described as a 10W20 multigrade oil and its virtually indistiguishable from Multitrac or most other UTTO products.

And finally the new and improved SUDT2:

Kinematic viscosity: 8.1 cSt @100C
Kinematic viscosity: 37 cSt @ 40C
Brookfield viscosity: <= 16000 cP @ -40C
Viscosity index: 199

This is more like a 5W20 or possibly 0W20 oil and is very distinguishable from the others, Its a much better cold startup/weather oil and thats one of the reasons Kubota reccomends it.

Now back to more interesting programming,

Dan

 

[pigdoc]

When I took possession of the G1800S that I bought in August (1200 hours on it), the HST was up to the mark with very clean-looking fluid. Only, the filter was old and dirty. When I got it home, I ran it around a little, ran the mower, just for some data on its mechanical condition. What I noticed was a rather pronounced whine coming from the HST when the tractor was under load, cold.

Changed the fluid to Super UDT, new filter. [The filter basket on the return line was clean as a whistle.] I got a 2-gallon jug at a local Kubota dealer for $42.

Whine is gone.

-Paul

 

[TheOldHokie]

When I took possession of the G1800S that I bought in August (1200 hours on it), the HST was up to the mark with very clean-looking fluid. Only, the filter was old and dirty. When I got it home, I ran it around a little, ran the mower, just for some data on its mechanical condition. What I noticed was a rather pronounced whine coming from the HST when the tractor was under load, cold.

Changed the fluid to Super UDT, new filter. [The filter basket on the return line was clean as a whistle.] I got a 2-gallon jug at a local Kubota dealer for $42.

Whine is gone.

Let me see if understand this report correctly - please correct me if I am mistaken:

1. Unit came into your possession with 1200 hours on the clock, filled with clean appearing transmission fluid of an unknown type and age, and a visibly dirty HST filter also of unknown type and age.
2. Operational testing of the unit revealed a pronounced transmission whine when cold and/or under load. Not clear exactly which or in what combination of those factors.
3. Unit was serviced with a fresh fill of SUDT2 and new (Kubota??) HST filter
4. Subsequent operational testing revealed the transmission whine had been eliminated/reduced.

You did not offer a conclusion but here is mine: fresh oil and/or new filter eliminated the whine
Given the unknowns anything more than that would be very speculative.

Dan

 

[pigdoc]

Thanks, Dan, for your reply.

Let's just say that I was NOT willing to speculate that the unknown of the fluid the tractor came with was worth avoiding its immediate replacement with the Super UDT that tractor needed.

-Paul

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thanks, Dan, for your reply.

Let's just say that I was NOT willing to speculate that the unknown of the fluid the tractor came with was enough to put off replacing it with the known that Super UDT was the fluid the tractor needed.

-Paul

I think its clear the oil and filter needed to be serviced.

I am the curious sort and would be interested in knowing what product your owners manual actually recommended. I looked for a freebie download and could not find one. It appears the G1800 was introduced in Nov 1988 which predates the introduction of SUDT by a couple of years....

Dan

 

[Mark_BX25D]

Thanks, Dan, for your reply.

Let's just say that I was NOT willing to speculate that the unknown of the fluid the tractor came with was worth avoiding its immediate replacement with the Super UDT that tractor needed.

-Paul

All debate about Kubota oil vs. non-Kubota aside, an unknown fluid in a new-to-you vehicle is a good candidate to be replaced.

 

[lugbolt]

Why did you use a non-approved oil in your hydrostat tractor?

I see this monthly, the customer claims they thought they would save a few dollars as they now are facing a $5000. repair.

I saw this often as well.

 

[pigdoc]

Dan said:
"I am the curious sort and would be interested in knowing what product your owners manual actually recommended. I looked for a freebie download and could not find one. It appears the G1800 was introduced in Nov 1988 which predates the introduction of SUDT by a couple of years...."

Here's a cropped page from the WSM:

And, here's the Super UDT label:

So, ya, SUDT was not cited for use by the G1800 WSM in 1988.
I guess we could debate the meanings of "UNIVERSAL" and "Fully compatible"...

Also, the Troubleshooting section of the WSM for the transmission lists "Transmission oil insufficient" as the first Probable Cause under the Symptom "Noise from Transmission". The Solution is to "Replenish".

That's been done. Symptom gone.

I submit that there are several potential reasons for the transmission oil to be insufficient.
Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV)

Thanks,
-Paul