Hydraulic Requirements for Sabre Samurai mower

[Dave_eng]

I have had a Samurai cutter for a number of years.
Do not buy without the breakaway mount
On a M7040 I used a pressure balanced flow control to get the cutter down to the recommended speed and because I had an industrial strobe light I used it to verify the speed.
Do not just clamp it to the side of your bucket as it will bend it.
I used heavy pieces of steel plate between the cutter mount and the bucket after I noticed the bending.

Dave

 

[TheOldHokie]

I have had a Samurai cutter for a number of years.
Do not buy without the breakaway mount
On a M7040 I used a pressure balanced flow control to get the cutter down to the recommended speed and because I had an industrial strobe light I used it to verify the speed.
Do not just clamp it to the side of your bucket as it will bend it.
I used heavy pieces of steel plate between the cutter mount and the bucket after I noticed the bending.
View attachment 85200
View attachment 85201
Dave

So how well does the cutter work? You happy satisfied customer?

Dan

 

[GreensvilleJay]

he must be !, says 'had it for years'

I can understand the needs breakaway mount comment.

 

[Dave_eng]

So how well does the cutter work? You happy satisfied customer?

Dan

First to get this out of my mind, you do not need a motor spool. The rotating components in the motor are small and light plus the motor speed is slow.

With the pressure compensated flow control, the benefit is my rear remote with detent will stay locked in the ON position and the pressures the valve sees are lower than the kick off pressure.

I found the company excellent to deal with. I originally bought without the breakaway mount and they agreed to let me exchange for a modest amount. This is the manufacturer not the dealer.

I allowed the company to use my photos etc as part of the breakaway mount exchange but I have not looked on their site to see if this material is still up.

As for use, my experience is limited as we sold the farm land and kept just 3 acres around our home.
Growing stuff is fine. In our area Sumac is the villain. Dead hard branches not so easily cut.

My caution about bending the bucket needs to be taken seriously. The end of the cutter bar has a lot of leverage working to bend the bucket.

Dave

 

[TheOldHokie]

First to get this out of my mind, you do not need a motor spool. The rotating components in the motor are small and light plus the motor speed is slow.

With the pressure compensated flow control, the benefit is my rear remote with detent will stay locked in the ON position and the pressures the valve sees are lower than the kick off pressure.

I found the company excellent to deal with. I originally bought without the breakaway mount and they agreed to let me exchange for a modest amount. This is the manufacturer not the dealer.

I allowed the company to use my photos etc as part of the breakaway mount exchange but I have not looked on their site to see if this material is still up.

As for use, my experience is limited as we sold the farm land and kept just 3 acres around our home.
Growing stuff is fine. In our area Sumac is the villain. Dead hard branches not so easily cut.

My caution about bending the bucket needs to be taken seriously. The end of the cutter bar has a lot of leverage working to bend the bucket.

Dave

Yes no need for a motor spool on something like that. I have several areas where that gadget would be handy and at that price its tempting.

Dan

 

[PHPaul]

@Dave_eng

I'll definitely be reinforcing the bucket and I did get the deluxe mount as one of the primary tasks of the tool will be cutting ditch banks and I wanted the "below horizontal" capability.

Would it be possible for you to post some pictures of your bucket reinforcement?

Does it go with the mount or is is welded to the side of the bucket or what?

 

[Dave_eng]

@Dave_eng

I'll definitely be reinforcing the bucket and I did get the deluxe mount as one of the primary tasks of the tool will be cutting ditch banks and I wanted the "below horizontal" capability.

Would it be possible for you to post some pictures of your bucket reinforcement?

Does it go with the mount or is is welded to the side of the bucket or what?

What I did was use two 1/2" thick pieces of steel plate which are normally used on my press.

They were about 4" x 12". One on inside and one on outside where the mount clamped. Not a very polished fix.
My long term plan was to make a pattern of the inside end of my bucket and have local steel fabricator cut out a piece of 1/2" plate.

I would just have on 1/2" hole in this piece of plate and a matching hole on the side of my bucket to hold it in place while I mount the cutter.

Dave

 

[PHPaul]

Ah. Thanks. I want to make mine removable as the bucket has limited lift capacity as it is.

Didn't realize the throat of the clamp was that big. I do like the idea of sandwiching the reinforcements inside and outside the bucket. I'll give it some thought, altho the "design" will depend more on what I can scrounge up for steel than what might be the best structurally.

 

[PHPaul]

The Samurai arrived today, nearly 8 weeks after ordering it "8^(

After running to NAPA to get the correct fittings for the motor, I got it mounted on the tractor and test drove it.

A few things became immediately apparent:

1. Reinforcing the bucket side will ABSOLUTELY be necessary. for the moment I sandwiched a piece of aluminum plate in there, but I'll get some steel cut as soon as I can and before I use it much.

2. My current hydraulic setup is insufficient. The motor runs too slow and it doesn't take much of a twig to stall it. The instructions call for 1/2" hose. At the moment I'm running it off my rear remote as discussed previously and there is about 10 feet of 3/8ths. hose running to the front. Between undersized hose and various fittings, I'm thinking there's just too much restriction. It'll have to do until my finances improve as two 10+ foot hydraulic hoses with fittings is beyond my means at the moment.

3. I'm having trouble with the mount holding it's position horizontally. I tightened the bolts with a 1/4" drive impact so it may be that they're not torqued down sufficiently. I'll experiment with that.

4. The break away is WAY too loose. I adjusted it according to the instructions but it didn't seem to make much difference, a stern glance will make it break back. I'll re-read the book and try it again but in order to get any mowing done I wound up pinning the break away in place. Yes, I know that's a recipe for some serious damage, so it's temporary.

I did have much better luck with it in the vertical position trimming brush along fence lines and the evergreens overhanging the edge of the driveway (as long as I didn't try to cut too thick of a twig). The ability to cut at any height my bucket will reach is going to be quite handy.

 

[TheOldHokie]

The Samurai arrived today, nearly 8 weeks after ordering it "8^(

After running to NAPA to get the correct fittings for the motor, I got it mounted on the tractor and test drove it.

A few things became immediately apparent:

1. Reinforcing the bucket side will ABSOLUTELY be necessary. for the moment I sandwiched a piece of aluminum plate in there, but I'll get some steel cut as soon as I can and before I use it much.

2. My current hydraulic setup is insufficient. The motor runs too slow and it doesn't take much of a twig to stall it. The instructions call for 1/2" hose. At the moment I'm running it off my rear remote as discussed previously and there is about 10 feet of 3/8ths. hose running to the front. Between undersized hose and various fittings, I'm thinking there's just too much restriction. It'll have to do until my finances improve as two 10+ foot hydraulic hoses with fittings is beyond my means at the moment.

3. I'm having trouble with the mount holding it's position horizontally. I tightened the bolts with a 1/4" drive impact so it may be that they're not torqued down sufficiently. I'll experiment with that.

4. The break away is WAY too loose. I adjusted it according to the instructions but it didn't seem to make much difference, a stern glance will make it break back. I'll re-read the book and try it again but in order to get any mowing done I wound up pinning the break away in place. Yes, I know that's a recipe for some serious damage, so it's temporary.

I did have much better luck with it in the vertical position trimming brush along fence lines and the evergreens overhanging the edge of the driveway (as long as I didn't try to cut too thick of a twig). The ability to cut at any height my bucket will reach is going to be quite handy.

Open center system with a fixed displacement pump so unlikely the hose is restricting flow. Plus website says you only need 3 GPM which is well within the ratings of 3/8 hose. Your tractor should be able to deliver its full 5 GPM flow through that hose.

Here is a nomograph from the Parker design guide showing recommended hydraulic fluid velocity for hoses. The shaded area reflects the minimum and maximum velecities for the 5 GPM flow. The blue line shows that at 5 GPM the velecity is a very acceprtables 16 FPS. From a differrent table in that same document - at 5 GPM the pressure drop across 10 ft of 3/8" hose is 18 PSI - insignificant.

Dan

 

[bird dogger]

I've just finished the SSQA mount system for our new Samurai cutter but haven't tried it yet. I was sure the 3/8 hose was sufficient so that's what was purchased and installed. But it hasn't been tested yet as I'm waiting for the other co-owner to return for its trial run in a week or so. Maybe I'll have to sneak in a pre test run and report back.

 

[PHPaul]

Thanks for that data, probably saved me a wad of cash.

So it appears that they were...um..."optimistic" on their specs for what it would cut. Shocking...

After I adjust a couple of things on the mount and get some more seat time with it, I'll check back in.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thanks for that data, probably saved me a wad of cash.

So it appears that they were...um..."optimistic" on their specs for what it would cut. Shocking...

Possible they overstated the capabilities of the machine. . Also possible you have something other than the hose limiting the flow to the motor. If you are getting fhe tractor's rated 5 GPM flow your hose should fill a gallon jug in 12 seconds. Pretty easy to measure that.

I downloaded the owners manual and its all over the place as regards flow requirements. One thing seems to be clear - motor displacenent is 3 cubic inches. The optinal operating speed is less clear but it seems to he in the neighborhood of 400 RPM which would require a 5.2 GPM flow rate. That's probably more than the pump on your tractor can produce.

Dan

 

[GreensvilleJay]

According to Tractordata, a B2650 has 5 GPM for the hydraulics. What I don't know is that is 'ALL available for your use' OR 'need to subtract xx GPM for loader use' ?? TD does list steering as 3.7 on a separate line.
Hopefully another B2650 owner can reply with the real spec for GPM.

Another possible problem may be the 'fitting's you bought ? If they have an ID of less than 3/8", they will reduce the flow rate.

Together these give you a 'double whammy', reduction of less than the needed GPM flow rate.

 

[Keadog]

I find this interesting. Happy to read any updates from all. I have over a mile of trails I've been using a Stihl hedge trimmer to keep open by hand. It can be very time consuming.
Would this work with an MX6000 with OEM 3rd function remote without any further mods other then reinforcing the bucket?
Thanks. Will follow...

 

[TheOldHokie]

According to Tractordata, a B2650 has 5 GPM for the hydraulics. What I don't know is that is 'ALL available for your use' OR 'need to subtract xx GPM for loader use' ?? TD does list steering as 3.7 on a separate line.
Hopefully another B2650 owner can reply with the real spec for GPM.

Another possible problem may be the 'fitting's you bought ? If they have an ID of less than 3/8", they will reduce the flow rate.

Together these give you a 'double whammy', reduction of less than the needed GPM flow rate.

The 5 GPM is implement flow.

Its an open center system - ALL flow goes through the loader before it goes to downstream devices like the rear remotes. The pump is fixed displacement so fittings will introduce a pressure drop and increase oil velocity but do little to reduce flow rate. If you get too much back pressure in the lines some flow may be unloaded via a relief valve. Otherwise it goes through the system.

Its easy to measure the actual flow rate going to the motor. Disconnect the supply hose at the motor and stick it in a clean gallon jug, set engine RPM, fully open motor cintrol valve and measure the length of time needed to fill the jug with oil. Then do the arithmetic.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

I find this interesting. Happy to read any updates from all. I have over a mile of trails I've been using a Stihl hedge trimmer to keep open by hand. It can be very time consuming.
Would this work with an MX6000 with OEM 3rd function remote without any further mods other then reinforcing the bucket?
Thanks. Will follow...

The MX6000 has 9+ GPM implement flow which would drive the motor at nearly twice its maximum allowable speed so you need some form of flow control to slow it down

The loader third function is a solenoid valve and will not meter flow - all on or all of. Reducing engine RPM to half throttle will reduce oil flow by half so that would be one (crude) way of controlling the motor speed. A 5 GPM priority flow divider would be a more sophisticated solution - $100 device that you simply put on the Samurai.

The other concern with a third function is duty cycle of the valve solenoids. They need to be capable of holding the valve open for extended periods.

Dan

 

[PHPaul]

I took the Samurai to my daughter's place to trim along her driveway. She lives right out in the woods and various sorts of brush and woody weeds have encroached enough to become an issue

Whilst working with it yesterday, I discovered a bent (!) knife on the moveable bar that was causing frequent jams. I cleaned that up and things improved noticeably.

Today it worked quite well, as long as I went very slowly and didn't try to cut anything over 1/2 inch or so. It worked particularly well in vertical mode for trimming overhanging stuff.

Running it off the rear remote has one big advantage: The ability to reverse it. I got hung up a few times with thicker brush hiding in the weeds and was able to back up slowly while changing directions on the motor and get free without having to get out of the tractor.

In horizontal mode it's very difficult (if not impossible) to get the mount tight enough to keep the bar from moving. I did sandwich a couple of pieces of 1/4 aluminum (all I could get my hands on at the moment) between the mount and the bucket side which stiffened things up quite a lot, but if you're not VERY careful to feather the control when adjusting bucket height any bounce will cause the mount to slip and the end of the bar to sag.

I got the bar stuck on an unseen bit of wild cherry that was too big to cut and when I got it free the moving sickle was jammed again. Traced that to another bent sickle section. I've emailed the company to see if perhaps I got a set of blades that weren't properly hardened. I was able to straighten it and get back to work.

Finally, I'm thinking this might be a good excuse to get a blank SSQA plate and weld the mount to that. Couple of advantages to that in my mind: A) stiffer and B) a dedicated mount where all I have to do is disconnect the hoses and lift the latches.

I'm also mulling over the possibility of using a hydraulic cylinder to switch back and forth between horizontal and vertical modes (and obviously any angle in between). Not only would that make life a LOT easier when switching, but it may well solve the problem of the bar not holding position. Need to think that through a little and perhaps that'll be a Winter Project.

 

[David K]

I took the Samurai to my daughter's place to trim along her driveway. She lives right out in the woods and various sorts of brush and woody weeds have encroached enough to become an issue

Whilst working with it yesterday, I discovered a bent (!) knife on the moveable bar that was causing frequent jams. I cleaned that up and things improved noticeably.

Today it worked quite well, as long as I went very slowly and didn't try to cut anything over 1/2 inch or so. It worked particularly well in vertical mode for trimming overhanging stuff.

Running it off the rear remote has one big advantage: The ability to reverse it. I got hung up a few times with thicker brush hiding in the weeds and was able to back up slowly while changing directions on the motor and get free without having to get out of the tractor.

In horizontal mode it's very difficult (if not impossible) to get the mount tight enough to keep the bar from moving. I did sandwich a couple of pieces of 1/4 aluminum (all I could get my hands on at the moment) between the mount and the bucket side which stiffened things up quite a lot, but if you're not VERY careful to feather the control when adjusting bucket height any bounce will cause the mount to slip and the end of the bar to sag.

I got the bar stuck on an unseen bit of wild cherry that was too big to cut and when I got it free the moving sickle was jammed again. Traced that to another bent sickle section. I've emailed the company to see if perhaps I got a set of blades that weren't properly hardened. I was able to straighten it and get back to work.

Finally, I'm thinking this might be a good excuse to get a blank SSQA plate and weld the mount to that. Couple of advantages to that in my mind: A) stiffer and B) a dedicated mount where all I have to do is disconnect the hoses and lift the latches.

I'm also mulling over the possibility of using a hydraulic cylinder to switch back and forth between horizontal and vertical modes (and obviously any angle in between). Not only would that make life a LOT easier when switching, but it may well solve the problem of the bar not holding position. Need to think that through a little and perhaps that'll be a Winter Project.

I just purchased a Sabre Samurai for my Kubota M6800 tractor (loader LA1002). I also plan to run off my rear detent self canceling remote. If I understand you correctly you only tie the cutter directly through a flow valve to the two rear remote connector couples. You do not run the return from the flow valve into the side port of your tractor. Is this correct? You only tie the cutter directly to the rear remote for pressure out and in?

 

[PHPaul]

I just purchased a Sabre Samurai for my Kubota M6800 tractor (loader LA1002). I also plan to run off my rear detent self canceling remote. If I understand you correctly you only tie the cutter directly through a flow valve to the two rear remote connector couples. You do not run the return from the flow valve into the side port of your tractor. Is this correct? You only tie the cutter directly to the rear remote for pressure out and in?

Correct, hooks up like any other hydraulic attachment.