ZD 28 Bypass Help!

GreensvilleJay

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Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
Apr 2, 2019
11,430
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Greensville,Ontario,Canada
Agree, you can't beat a reed switch in applications where dust,dirt,and other 'pollutants' exist ! two notable uses I've seen. 1) current sensor for portable arc welders. Those old, 'old school' gas engine driven,tag along welders. A 'simple' reed switch is used to sense the high current of the arc, to send the 'control signal' to rev up the engine. 2) Ann Arbor Terminals . Under every keycap was a vertical micro reed switch activated by a small circular magnet on the key cap 'plunger'. Costly to make BUT ultra reliable !

Love SSRs. Back in the mid 80's designed and made my own as I needed 6 per control board for my remote controlled energy systems. My very low current, self indicating SSR design was featured in Electronics Design in the 90's. While most SSRs do have 'input side' LEDS, mine also had one on the output side, to indicate the load SHOULD be on.
Ah the good old daze.........
 
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RBsingl

Well-known member

Equipment
Kubota F 2690 72" rear discharge deck, Deere 955
Jul 1, 2022
409
428
63
Central IL
Jay, electronics exposed to an outside environment can end up as an adventure!

My previous diesel pickup was a 2006 GMC and the only repair issue I had with it was mouse induced. In 2013, I was getting ready to make a quick run to the post office before it closed and I noticed the check engine light was on before I even put in the ignition key. The truck started and operated normally but when I went to shut it off at the post office, it kept running even with the ignition off. When I got home, I pulled the ECM relay to kill the engine. The next morning I went out to troubleshoot it but it was operating normally and the only stored trouble code was for loss of communications between the engine controller and the separate controller for the Allison automatic.

A couple of week later it happened again and a few hours with the service manual and some measurements allowed me to run down the trouble. Most GM products use a UBEC (Underhood Bused Electrical Center) where the relays, fuses, and interconnecting wiring live. The top layer contains the relays, breakers, and fuses, the middle layer has open copper bus bar wiring used for interconnecting the various circuits, and the bottom layer has connectors for several wiring harnesses. Within the UBEC bus area are both constant and switched 12 volt lines and mine had leakage between the constant and switched 12 volt lines. The ECM was being fed 12 volts on its switched input via leakage and after a few minutes, the leakage charged its switched 12 volt input sufficiently that it turned on its relay. The loss of communications occurred because the Allison controller wasn't seeing a 12 volt feed until the ignition was on.

The root cause was a mouse that thought the UBEC made a good urinal. The mouse pee caused corrosion of the bare copper bus and the intermittent nature was because the corrosion was only sufficiently conductive when the humidity was high. Troubleshooting time was around three hours between studying the service manual to understand the logic of the system and making a few measurements. Replacement time was only a few minutes, the dealership didn't have one available but I found one pulled from a totaled identical model on ebay shipped for $50 and with several vehicles waiting 3 days for parts wasn't a problem.

Photos below are the UBEC, a crop of the damaged/corroded area, and the less than 1K leakage between the switched and constant 12 volt buses when humidity was high. I started using mouse traps in the detached garage after this event. The manufacturer used bare copper because of the multiple "stab" type connectors used in the UBEC construction but coated wire would have been more suited for the environment seen in outdoor use.

And on edit, using my Tektronix 851 for measuring resistance was test equipment overkill for this except I was curious to see how the resistance varied over time so I used the line operated Tektronix digital tester in its "simple" mode instead of a battery operated DMM.

Rodger

UBEC internal view.JPG
Close up of damaged area.JPG
Resistance reading.JPG
 
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amosmandy

New member

Equipment
ZD 28 Zero Turn
Jul 31, 2022
15
0
1
Michigan
Greensvillejay,
Each switch has failed and has been replaced at least once. It seems the biggest pain is the one attached to the brake. Sometimes even while in motion it will stop, and I have to play with the brake/pedal to get it to start again.
Talking to a Kubota salesperson at the local fair, he said to just disconnect the plug-in connector near the brake switch and then jump the wire. Is he correct or just guessing?

Dustyx2,
Your comments have been very helpful. I have noticed that the wire clip-on connector leading to the starter seems to be corroded badly. I cleaned it pretty well and at this time it seems to work better, albeit the brake switch is still a problem.

Ken
 

GreensvilleJay

Well-known member

Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
Apr 2, 2019
11,430
4,912
113
Greensville,Ontario,Canada
Not just GMC's have that 'option'........ Guy with a dodge pickup came by, 'panic mode', after having paid a 'tech' $150 to fix his UBEC.... Great now I get to FIX the 'fix'...... 3 hours,I might have got a 'thank you', certainly NO cash......or even an OFFER to pay for my dinner ( it was my 60th birthday). THAT I remember clear as day.
Root cause..hmm..big fan that can spray salty water all over the inside of the engine compartment ???? The level of corrosion was disgusting, considering it was a 2 year old truck.sigh.

re: switches. Are they clean when they fail or covered in wet grass, dirt, 'crud', etc. Pictures would help. If this is a common problem , I can't believe others haven't said so. ANY moisture on the connectors and wiring is bad news, over time the copper rots away.
 

Atlanta Panther

Member

Equipment
Kubota L3200HST with Loaded R4 Tires, LA524 Loader and Quick Connect 66" bucket
Jun 15, 2013
75
3
8
Madison, Ga
Thanks for the replies. I have maintained the machine as well as possible, but it does take a beating. I bought it new in I think 2006-2008.
I have taken it to the dealer when the switches malfunction as I have stated at least 6-7 times. Sometimes it takes 4 weeks to get it back from repair.
Again, at this moment the brake lever has to be jerked around to start.

I will check the hours on it and post and if I can check the voltage.

Ken
I recently got a ZD28 and when I first got on it the Brake handle did not disengage correctly (or so I thought). I finally figured out that if I pull back on the brake handle and then move it forward it disengages with no problem. I also noted that you really have to step on the brake heavily to make sure it is engaged. If it is not engaged, the mower will not start as the safety switch is not sending the correct signal to start.
 

GreensvilleJay

Well-known member

Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
Apr 2, 2019
11,430
4,912
113
Greensville,Ontario,Canada
yeesh, if I was having this issue , I'd add a 12V LED indicator light to each of the switches to PROVE whether the switch was working or not. Simple,easy $20 mod.
 

Henro

Well-known member

Equipment
B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini Ex., Beer fridge
May 24, 2019
5,782
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The switches have to be in one position to start the engine and in the opposite position for operation.
Late to the party...

I am having trouble visualizing how this could be possible if the switches are single pole.

For example, assume the engine starts, with the operator in the seat and he does nothing else.

How does anything with respect to the switches (that were in the necessary position for the start to occur) change?

The only thing that changed was the key switch going from start back to the on position.

I guess it is possible if the switches are multi pole and each pole has a separate input to the control module. (OR just one additional input that looks for a certain series/parallel hook up of one or more switches).

What exactly are you saying? I recall someone stating the switches were connected in series and the series string was connected to a control module input point. No mention was made of the switches having more than one set of contacts, but they could.

Just trying to get the big picture and to make sure that the statement is factual.
 

RBsingl

Well-known member

Equipment
Kubota F 2690 72" rear discharge deck, Deere 955
Jul 1, 2022
409
428
63
Central IL
Late to the party...

I am having trouble visualizing how this could be possible if the switches are single pole.

For example, assume the engine starts, with the operator in the seat and he does nothing else.

How does anything with respect to the switches (that were in the necessary position for the start to occur) change?

The only thing that changed was the key switch going from start back to the on position.

I guess it is possible if the switches are multi pole and each pole has a separate input to the control module. (OR just one additional input that looks for a certain series/parallel hook up of one or more switches).

What exactly are you saying? I recall someone stating the switches were connected in series and the series string was connected to a control module input point. No mention was made of the switches having more than one set of contacts, but they could.

Just trying to get the big picture and to make sure that the statement is factual.
With the combination box, the switches (simple SPST variety) all go to separate inputs on the box (except I believe with a ZTR the switches for the steering handles are in series). The combination box looks for a specific combination of open and closed switches in order to activate the start relay (i.e. brake, seat, and position (or treadle pedal) closed, PTO open). If all of these are true, then it will start. After the engine has started for the PTO, it would look for seat switch closed or engine would be stopped.

So basically it is an extremely simple logic circuit looking for the specific combination of open and closed switches. Based upon these, the combination box will command on the start relay, glow plug relay, and fuel control solenoid as needed.

The big advantage is the switches themselves aren't handling significant current and are only acting as indicators to the logic module (aka combination box).

Rodger
 

Henro

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Equipment
B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini Ex., Beer fridge
May 24, 2019
5,782
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With the combination box, the switches (simple SPST variety) all go to separate inputs on the box (except I believe with a ZTR the switches for the steering handles are in series). The combination box looks for a specific combination of open and closed switches in order to activate the start relay (i.e. brake, seat, and position (or treadle pedal) closed, PTO open). If all of these are true, then it will start. After the engine has started for the PTO, it would look for seat switch closed or engine would be stopped.

So basically it is an extremely simple logic circuit looking for the specific combination of open and closed switches. Based upon these, the combination box will command on the start relay, glow plug relay, and fuel control solenoid as needed.

The big advantage is the switches themselves aren't handling significant current and are only acting as indicators to the logic module (aka combination box).

Rodger
Of course, if every switch goes into the control box as a separate input, the internal logic can do a lot of things. This is the way industrial control systems are frequently designed.

BUT I remember someone saying that at least two switches were wired in series...when referring to the OP's machine. I have no clue as I have not seem a wiring diagram, and internal logic for control modules for Kubota equipment apparently is unavailable outside the corporate offices.

However, every extra input point adds manufacturing cost. Are you SURE this is done on the OP's machine, which I believe is not very new? Would have cost even more back then.

So you are saying that the seat switch is what is needed to keep the engine running after it starts. Not suggesting it should be done, but if this is the case then simply jumping out the seat switch should solve an intermittent shutdown issue that occurs after the engine is started.

Just for the sake of discussion, NOT promoting this be done by anyone.
 
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RBsingl

Well-known member

Equipment
Kubota F 2690 72" rear discharge deck, Deere 955
Jul 1, 2022
409
428
63
Central IL
Of course, if every switch goes into the control box as a separate input, the internal logic can do a lot of things. This is the way industrial control systems are frequently designed.

BUT I remember someone saying that at least two switches were wired in series...when referring to the OP's machine. I have no clue as I have not seem a wiring diagram, and internal logic for control modules for Kubota equipment apparently is unavailable outside the corporate offices.

However, every extra input point adds manufacturing cost. Are you SURE this is done on the OP's machine, which I believe is not very new? Would have cost even more back then.

So you are saying that the seat switch is what is needed to keep the engine running after it starts. Not suggesting it should be done, but if this is the case then simply jumping out the seat switch should solve an intermittent shutdown issue that occurs after the engine is started.

Just for the sake of discussion, NOT promoting this be done by anyone.
The diagrams I have seen from that era show the "combination box" was in use. It is so simple that it probably costs very little to manufacture even though it is a high profit item when bought as a repair part.

I believe the only two switches in series on a ZD are the two that detect "neutral" for the left and right wheel speed control levers. Both of those are closed in the neutral position so that makes sense to put them in series to save a control input.

I haven't looked at the control system of the Kubota ZTR to know what the proper operating procedure is, whether you can get off with the controls in neutral or if the parking brake must be set to prevent killing the engine while running if the operator is out of the seat. I know that the PTO logic is the engine will shut off with the operator out of the seat although that might vary if some of the units use an electrically controlled PTO like some of the Deere units which just shut off the PTO instead of the engine if the seat isn't occupied.

For troubleshooting these, I would first know exactly what the parameters are for starting/run with PTO/ etc. to know what Kubota wants the controls and operator to be doing for each task. Then measure the respective switch to see what it is doing in the position. I would want to be extremely sure that the combination box is the issue before either adding a "helper" relay or replacing an expensive box.

Rodger
 
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Henro

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B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini Ex., Beer fridge
May 24, 2019
5,782
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This is how it's supposed to be......
Interesting. That would support what Rodger stated.

Unfortunately, the logic within the control module is unknown...it might be possible to figure things out with experimentation...

Chances are eliminating the seat switch would not prevent normal operation. More can probably be deduced by someone interested...I get the picture now.

It is great to talk things through in a civil manner! Which seems to be pretty normal for OTT.
 
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amosmandy

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Equipment
ZD 28 Zero Turn
Jul 31, 2022
15
0
1
Michigan
As soon as the weather in my area cools, I will first try bypassing the seat switch since it is the easiest to get at.

Ken
 

GreensvilleJay

Well-known member

Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
Apr 2, 2019
11,430
4,912
113
Greensville,Ontario,Canada
so I got real curious, went to 'parts' and it appears those switches are LEAF/LEVER action microswitches ! About the stupidest, silliest type of 'sensor' to be used in a rider...... CHEAP though, maybe $5 to Kubota.
It's OBVIOUS why they're such a PITA for owners.... Could easily be repalce with $10 'rollerarm action ''Industrial"" switches.
Looking at the WSM wiring, I still can't see ANY control of the PTO from the 'combibox', so query..is it a mechanical engage and NOT an electric PTO unit ?
 
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Henro

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Equipment
B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini Ex., Beer fridge
May 24, 2019
5,782
2,968
113
North of Pittsburgh PA
so I got real curious, went to 'parts' and it appears those switches are LEAF/LEVER action microswitches ! About the stupidest, silliest type of 'sensor' to be used in a rider...... CHEAP though, maybe $5 to Kubota.
It's OBVIOUS why they're such a PITA for owners.... Could easily be repalce with $10 'rollerarm action ''Industrial"" switches.
Looking at the WSM wiring, I still can't see ANY control of the PTO from the 'combibox', so query..is it a mechanical engage and NOT an electric PTO unit ?
I have no idea about the OP’s mower. But in the case of my BX the PTO is manually operated, with the safety switch simply sensing lever position. The PTO employees a hydraulic clutch.

The control assumes if the lever is in the disengaged position that the PTO is disengaged.
 
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amosmandy

New member

Equipment
ZD 28 Zero Turn
Jul 31, 2022
15
0
1
Michigan
My ZD 28 Zero turn safety switches operates way different than my BX loader. With the loader the safety switches are a non-issue.
Ken
 

Henro

Well-known member

Equipment
B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini Ex., Beer fridge
May 24, 2019
5,782
2,968
113
North of Pittsburgh PA
My ZD 28 Zero turn safety switches operates way different than my BX loader. With the loader the safety switches are a non-issue.
Ken
Could that be because you don’t use the PTO with the loader? No loader on my BX, but it does have a mower deck.

On my BX safety switches only come into play when starting. BUT my BX is is 19 years old now. I think the only safety switches my BX has is PTO off and gear range in neutral. EVERY piece of equipment is different naturally.
 

GreensvilleJay

Well-known member

Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
Apr 2, 2019
11,430
4,912
113
Greensville,Ontario,Canada
I've used these 'all over' for a few years...make great garage door open switches !

...

About $6 CDN each, a nice deal, they have a smooth, positive 'action'. Very well built ,considering the 'Country of Origin' they replace the $120 units I used to buy.
 
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Dustyx2

Active member

Equipment
BX22, M7060, Landpride RC-2512, Woodmax SB84
Feb 19, 2021
217
63
28
NE Wyoming
so I got real curious, went to 'parts' and it appears those switches are LEAF/LEVER action microswitches ! About the stupidest, silliest type of 'sensor' to be used in a rider...... CHEAP though, maybe $5 to Kubota.
It's OBVIOUS why they're such a PITA for owners.... Could easily be repalce with $10 'rollerarm action ''Industrial"" switches.
Looking at the WSM wiring, I still can't see ANY control of the PTO from the 'combibox', so query..is it a mechanical engage and NOT an electric PTO unit ?
PTO is hydraulic.
 

Dustyx2

Active member

Equipment
BX22, M7060, Landpride RC-2512, Woodmax SB84
Feb 19, 2021
217
63
28
NE Wyoming
Greensvillejay,
Each switch has failed and has been replaced at least once. It seems the biggest pain is the one attached to the brake. Sometimes even while in motion it will stop, and I have to play with the brake/pedal to get it to start again.
Talking to a Kubota salesperson at the local fair, he said to just disconnect the plug-in connector near the brake switch and then jump the wire. Is he correct or just guessing?

Dustyx2,
Your comments have been very helpful. I have noticed that the wire clip-on connector leading to the starter seems to be corroded badly. I cleaned it pretty well and at this time it seems to work better, albeit the brake switch is still a problem.

Ken
This is sounding like your brake safety switch is out of adjustment.