LAYING 1" POLY PIPE WITH A SUBSOILER

[flyidaho]

I bought 30 acres below my 40, and it has a spring that tests good to drink, has a pipe sticking out/all developed, and puts out over 17,000 gallons per day. Only problem is, where I could use the water for irrigating is uphill 300 vertical feet and 2,000 lineal away. A Grundfos SQ Flex pump and about 650 watts of solar will handle that just fine, I've installed many of them before back when I was in the solar biz (sideline), and I should get around 2,000 GPD. Once up there, gravity will move it all around where ever I need it. 12" or 16" deep will be fine, summer use only, draining it will be easy.

NO rocks, and if I custom order the poly line, I can get it in a single length, reel mounted. I see others have fabbed up a sweep 90 of various sorts, (muffler tubing, EMT etc.) attached to the rear of the ripper, and once started the pipe will feed in thru the top and lay in the trench behind the ripper as it goes. I imagine the poly has to be secured somehow when starting. I can see the biggest hassle being wrestling the roll to get it to feed correctly into the 90, that's why the extra cost of the reel seems worth it, I could fab some sort of reel holder, maybe trailer mounted or even in the pickups flatbed, to follow along. Anyone else lay poly line this way? I have a receiver hitch 3 point attachment, and am thinking of using it, with the right sub soiler tool inserted in it. 16 years ago I hired someone (??) to lay my electrical line about 1200', he had a good sized dozer and was easily and quickly able to neatly bury it using a similar tool, just bigger so a lot deeper. I have a L3301 so would like to use it if feasible.

Just read a review, seems that without a lot of weight or hydraulic downforce, a small tractor may struggle to get the required down force, to get it even 12" deep. This may be a case of the cheapest and best way to do it is to get a bigger machine, and while it was at it get it down 16" or so. I will check around local and see who I can rustle up that lays poly this way and is all set up for it, and see what equipment they use.

 

[imnukensc]

Go for it!

 

[NCL4701]

A few decades ago I worked on a crew that laid underground coax trunk line for cable TV (which was an expanding network at the time). The trunk line we were laying was required to be 18” deep and was slightly under 1” diameter. Of course the individual drop lines were much smaller but that was another crew, we just did the big lines.

Anyway, we didn’t need a dozer or some giant thing like a tiling machine to lay it. What we did need was a DitchWitch type machine (ours was actually a Case) with a vibratory plow on the back and a hydraulic reel lift on the front. The cable exited the reel from the top and arched over the top of the machine to feed into a steel slide box attached just behind the plow (a thing that looked like a 2’ long, 1.5” x 3” file). If the outer jacket was ripped or it hung up and came in half a junction box had to be added and that (we were told) was unacceptable so we had at minimum one guy driving the plow and one monitoring the feed. Of course we ran 18” deep through rocks, roots, clay, sand, or anything else in the way.

I’ve seen single shank rippers for 3 point that have a tube on the back for feeding cable for running a relatively small electric line. I suppose you could do that with a tractor and rig up some sort of reel trailer to hold the reel to follow the tractor IF:

1) Your tractor will actually rip that deep for at least the vast majority of the run;
2) It will do it while towing a rather large pipe reel that weighs quite a bit. I’d want to know the weight before attempting this. It doesn’t sound like flat ground has much to do with this project so the weight of the reel may be a significant issue. (I’m assuming a reel of 1” pipe 2000’ long is WAY to large and heavy to consider trying to attach to the loader in some manner.)

Last, going back up a bit, whatever you use has to set the pipe for at least the majority of the run. Anything you run into that stops it will require either hand digging or (in our case with the cable crew) pulling the plow out of the way to use a chain ditcher or rock trencher wheel (we had both). That memory brings up a rather serious issue. If you’re in the middle of the run and have any issue whatsoever (hard to believe you won’t in a run that long) whatever feeder box/tube you have on your ripper needs to be set up to allow opening it to remove the pipe and/or put it back in mid-run. Otherwise the only way to disconnect the machine from the pipe is finish the run or cut the pipe.

I’m not saying you can’t pull the run with your tractor. I am saying if I was contemplating it, I’d start by getting the ripper and a guide box/tube, then give it a dry run for a couple hundred feet to see if your tractor will pull the ripper and guide box with enough reserve to also handle the _____ lb pipe reel. If it’s still a go, then I’d look at either renting or buying a reel trailer and fabricating a hitch for the tractor to pull it behind the ripper.

All that said, I honestly don’t think you have enough tractor to do it and it’s the wrong machine for the job. If you go forward with the project with the 3301 I sincerely hope it does the job flawlessly. I suspect you’ll end up either hiring it out, renting a cable/pipe plow capable of 1”, or renting trencher.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

You don't need down force hydraulics to use a subsoiler, I get max depth(2 1/2 ft) easily. How easy (hp) depends on soil conditions.THAT is the concern. As pointed out ,once you start ,you don't want to stop for a rock or ugh...boulder ! Lots of pix of tractors pulling trailers with pipe.
Something not talked about ,is the 'grade'. You're going up 300' in 2000', is that a constant slope ? Obviously don't start 1st thing in the morning(dew) or after a rain)...grass tends to be slippery then !
Assuming this is a 'do-it-once' project, I'd lay 4" weeping tile and PULL the polypipe through it. That way it is replaceable ! Be sure to do a pressure test of the 2000' BEFORE you lay it ! Also do that after you're done.It'd be a real bummer to find out there's a pinhole leak in 1/2 mile of pipe 'somewhere'.

 

[Elliott in GA]

FWIW, I had to install 180 feet of direct bury 10 gauge romex wire. I thought about borrowing BIL's sub-soiler, but the ground was hard clay with rocks.

Instead, I rented a tracked Virnig trencher; it was the right decision. I cut the trench in about 20 minutes (including learning how to use the trencher), and it was a very easy process to get a straight, uniform depth trench. I had the trencher back to the rental yard in less than four hours (including over an hour total drive time). Total cost with the extra insurance was ~$170 for the half day rental.

If I had a backhoe, I would have still rented the trencher (faster, cleaner, easier to cover and etc.). I looked up the price of the trencher; it was around $30K for a single purpose machine. Buy a trencher - never; rent a trencher - every time.

 

[skeets]

Well back in the day we did something like that with a small tractor of a yellow color. And we could not do it in one pass, we did several passes with the middle buster going deeper each pass till we got were we needed to be. We used black 1 inch hose and connectors. I would say if you can go down hill toward the spring you might be better off, gravity is your friend some times, unless you are falling off a ladder . Can it be done, "yes" it can! Should you do it, well if you have nothing better to do go for it. As for getting started, maybe the best thing to do is dig hole where you want to start your run and drop the middle buster in with the line as deep as you have already plowed through tie it off to a tree a truck bumper something and go, after you go a dozen feet or so, the friction of the dirt will hold things in place. Roll out the line from top to bottom and have someone walking along side feeding the line, this makes it easyer for you to watch where you are going Remember once you get started you are committed, so plan it all out first. Or and this might be better hire someone with the right equipment to do the job,,,, Are you sure you ment 17,000 gallons a day ? Thats like over 708 gallons an hour, 11.8 gallons a minuet !!!! That my friend is a hell of a lot of water from a spring,, good for you !

 

[Dieseldonato]

FWIW, I had to install 180 feet of direct bury 10 gauge romex wire. I thought about borrowing BIL's sub-soiler, but the ground was hard clay with rocks.

Instead, I rented a tracked Virnig trencher; it was the right decision. I cut the trench in about 20 minutes (including learning how to use the trencher), and it was a very easy process to get a straight, uniform depth trench. I had the trencher back to the rental yard in less than four hours (including over an hour total drive time). Total cost with the extra insurance was ~$170 for the half day rental.

If I had a backhoe, I would have still rented the trencher (faster, cleaner, easier to cover and etc.). I looked up the price of the trencher; it was around $30K for a single purpose machine. Buy a trencher - never; rent a trencher - every time.

I've been doing more renting for my projects instead if buying. Have a really good rental yard not terribly far from my place, that can get about anything if you give them advanced notice. I'd rent a trench machine too.

 

[fried1765]

A few decades ago I worked on a crew that laid underground coax trunk line for cable TV (which was an expanding network at the time). The trunk line we were laying was required to be 18” deep and was slightly under 1” diameter. Of course the individual drop lines were much smaller but that was another crew, we just did the big lines.

Anyway, we didn’t need a dozer or some giant thing like a tiling machine to lay it. What we did need was a DitchWitch type machine (ours was actually a Case) with a vibratory plow on the back and a hydraulic reel lift on the front. The cable exited the reel from the top and arched over the top of the machine to feed into a steel slide box attached just behind the plow (a thing that looked like a 2’ long, 1.5” x 3” file). If the outer jacket was ripped or it hung up and came in half a junction box had to be added and that (we were told) was unacceptable so we had at minimum one guy driving the plow and one monitoring the feed. Of course we ran 18” deep through rocks, roots, clay, sand, or anything else in the way.

I’ve seen single shank rippers for 3 point that have a tube on the back for feeding cable for running a relatively small electric line. I suppose you could do that with a tractor and rig up some sort of reel trailer to hold the reel to follow the tractor IF:

1) Your tractor will actually rip that deep for at least the vast majority of the run;
2) It will do it while towing a rather large pipe reel that weighs quite a bit. I’d want to know the weight before attempting this. It doesn’t sound like flat ground has much to do with this project so the weight of the reel may be a significant issue. (I’m assuming a reel of 1” pipe 2000’ long is WAY to large and heavy to consider trying to attach to the loader in some manner.)

Last, going back up a bit, whatever you use has to set the pipe for at least the majority of the run. Anything you run into that stops it will require either hand digging or (in our case with the cable crew) pulling the plow out of the way to use a chain ditcher or rock trencher wheel (we had both). That memory brings up a rather serious issue. If you’re in the middle of the run and have any issue whatsoever (hard to believe you won’t in a run that long) whatever feeder box/tube you have on your ripper needs to be set up to allow opening it to remove the pipe and/or put it back in mid-run. Otherwise the only way to disconnect the machine from the pipe is finish the run or cut the pipe.

I’m not saying you can’t pull the run with your tractor. I am saying if I was contemplating it, I’d start by getting the ripper and a guide box/tube, then give it a dry run for a couple hundred feet to see if your tractor will pull the ripper and guide box with enough reserve to also handle the _____ lb pipe reel. If it’s still a go, then I’d look at either renting or buying a reel trailer and fabricating a hitch for the tractor to pull it behind the ripper.

All that said, I honestly don’t think you have enough tractor to do it and it’s the wrong machine for the job. If you go forward with the project with the 3301 I sincerely hope it does the job flawlessly. I suspect you’ll end up either hiring it out, renting a cable/pipe plow capable of 1”, or renting trencher.

Titan lists a 20" subsoiler with pipelayer feature.
Will bury to 20", and seems like a bargain at $299.99

Agri Supply also offers a subsoiler pipelayer.
I have the Agri Supply subsoiler for my 32HP Ford 1920..
Capability depends on the soil type.

Both will handle up to 2" pipe.

 

[Flintknapper]

Are you sure you ment 17,000 gallons a day ? Thats like over 708 gallons an hour, 11.8 gallons a minuet !!!! That my friend is a hell of a lot of water from a spring,, good for you !

That was my first thought as well. 17K gallons a day is a veritable creek.

 

[ve9aa]

A decade ago on a much MUCH smaller scale I built a ripper blade and substituted it for one of the wheels on my mower deck of my TG1860 and laid out ~7500 feet of wire by feeding the wire (on a reel) from a big carboard box sitting on the mower deck into a 90* PVC elbow just behind the ripper.

#1 Problem was keeping the deck(blade) down...(rocks) .so I drove along with my foot pressing down on the deck and was 99% successful. Had to stop every once in a while, get out a spade/shovel, move a rock, then continue. When I was done, I drove over the slender trenches I made (130' x 60 individual trenches) and rain and grass looked after the rest. In your case, maybe the bucket could smooth down your trench when you're done? ( I had no real tractor back then). I should note I mowed as low to the Earth as possible before tackling this job as grass and weeds occasionally plug up my "blade system", so I was thankful I mowed really really short. If it had been long, it might have been a real mess.

I can appreciate that your project is on a MUCH larger scale than what I did (concept much the same) with my small equipment, small homebrew ripper, PVC elbow and very small pipe (wire) but I think (think/guess/wonder) that as long as you can keep your ripper blade DOWN in the dirt, it ought to go easily?

I'll be watching this thread to see how you make out. (I know you said no rocks, so hopefully this'll be pretty slick !

 

[D2Cat]

Couple of months ago used a subsoiler with a curved PVC tube attached to bury couple hundred feet of cable for some lights. Depth was about 12"-15" through dirt and then across a couple of drive ways. Used a 40-50 HP. Project went fine.

Saying that to say it can be done. However, if I was doing 2000' and wanted only one piece of pipe requiring the reel to be rolled along the trench I would definitely rent a trencher to do the job. Much easier, less stress, more flexibility for the solution of unknown problems, and could easily do by yourself. Dig the trench (any depth you choose) according to the material you're in. Then pull the roll of piping with a bar through the reel with your tractor, Then lay the pipe in the ditch. Then backfill.

A trencher is SO much easier!! And backfilling a 2000' trench with a trencher takes about 45 minutes because they have an angle blade and just push the crumbs in as you parallel the ditch. Not going at it from 90 deg angles with a loader.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Other thing to consider.... that pump and solar setup is probably close to $4K, so spending a few bucks on a contractor to get the job done right, the first time would be money well spent.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

Knowing nothing about your soil/rock conditions . . .
1. If you already have a subsoiler, I'd make one pass without the pipe to feel out the route, then follow the same path, laying pipe.
2. If you don't have the subsoiler, rent a trencher - it'll be about the same cost.

A few months ago, I 'helped' my nephew run about 1500' of 1-1/2" PEX in north Miss. He rented a small 4" tracked trencher for a weekend. No rock, a few roots. The biggest problem was it didn't have enough weight on the tracks going uphill - did fine level or downhill. He was shooting for 2' deep, if I remember. We're a little deeper in places. I used my backhoe at a few ditch crossings.

The PEX (300' rolls) was coiled pretty small and had a fair memory. He used a drawbar and some chains to lay it out. Your 1" poly will be more limber, but 2000' in one piece . . .

BTW, 300' vertical is 130 psi, so you'll be stretching poly pipe unless they're making it better these days.

 

[flyidaho]

Well back in the day we did something like that with a small tractor of a yellow color. And we could not do it in one pass, we did several passes with the middle buster going deeper each pass till we got were we needed to be. We used black 1 inch hose and connectors. I would say if you can go down hill toward the spring you might be better off, gravity is your friend some times, unless you are falling off a ladder . Can it be done, "yes" it can! Should you do it, well if you have nothing better to do go for it. As for getting started, maybe the best thing to do is dig hole where you want to start your run and drop the middle buster in with the line as deep as you have already plowed through tie it off to a tree a truck bumper something and go, after you go a dozen feet or so, the friction of the dirt will hold things in place. Roll out the line from top to bottom and have someone walking along side feeding the line, this makes it easyer for you to watch where you are going Remember once you get started you are committed, so plan it all out first. Or and this might be better hire someone with the right equipment to do the job,,,, Are you sure you ment 17,000 gallons a day ? Thats like over 708 gallons an hour, 11.8 gallons a minuet !!!! That my friend is a hell of a lot of water from a spring,, good for you !

12 GPM x 1440=

Knowing nothing about your soil/rock conditions . . .
1. If you already have a subsoiler, I'd make one pass without the pipe to feel out the route, then follow the same path, laying pipe.
2. If you don't have the subsoiler, rent a trencher - it'll be about the same cost.

A few months ago, I 'helped' my nephew run about 1500' of 1-1/2" PEX in north Miss. He rented a small 4" tracked trencher for a weekend. No rock, a few roots. The biggest problem was it didn't have enough weight on the tracks going uphill - did fine level or downhill. He was shooting for 2' deep, if I remember. We're a little deeper in places. I used my backhoe at a few ditch crossings.

The PEX (300' rolls) was coiled pretty small and had a fair memory. He used a drawbar and some chains to lay it out. Your 1" poly will be more limber, but 2000' in one piece . . .

BTW, 300' vertical is 130 psi, so you'll be stretching poly pipe unless they're making it better these days.

Knowing nothing about your soil/rock conditions . . .
1. If you already have a subsoiler, I'd make one pass without the pipe to feel out the route, then follow the same path, laying pipe.
2. If you don't have the subsoiler, rent a trencher - it'll be about the same cost.

A few months ago, I 'helped' my nephew run about 1500' of 1-1/2" PEX in north Miss. He rented a small 4" tracked trencher for a weekend. No rock, a few roots. The biggest problem was it didn't have enough weight on the tracks going uphill - did fine level or downhill. He was shooting for 2' deep, if I remember. We're a little deeper in places. I used my backhoe at a few ditch crossings.

The PEX (300' rolls) was coiled pretty small and had a fair memory. He used a drawbar and some chains to lay it out. Your 1" poly will be more limber, but 2000' in one piece . . .

BTW, 300' vertical is 130 psi, so you'll be stretching poly pipe unless they're making it better these days.

I'll be using 200 PSI for the lower section, and have decided to rent a hydraulic trencher attachment complete with

Go for it!

I've decided to not mess around with a ..... I'll rent a skidster with as hydraulic trencher from my local CAT dealer, just 10 miles away. My crane yard is right down the road a mile or so, and I did much of the work on their now 5 year old facility, I don't mind giving them my money. As long as I'm at it, I'll go 16" deep or so, And include a tracer wire in order to find it in the future, plus take aerial pics. NO special ordering (and waiting for the next production run) and paying $500.00 (non refundable, that savings may pay for the rental) for the reel, I'll just buy the longest available rolls from my irrigation wholesaler, 300' I think. Brass couplers, doubled up all stainless hose clamps for the higher sections, along with 100 PSI/less expensive hose, while the lower section will use the 200 PSI stuff along with top of the line brass compression fittings, just like used on residential water lines these days. Backfill with my tractor scraper blade, angled of course. This method will also give me the option of putting in a few tees (when coupling lengths) for possible future hydrants.

As said, NO rocks, or roots but I wish it was spring when the ground is softer, thus the GO BIG option of the skidsteer, it'll have the weight and power, I think it will do it at a walking pace, while I'm sitting on my butt, call it an hour or two at most, and I believe the 'steer may even have an enclosed cab with air! Beats wrestling a hand operated one, been there, done that. Here's a pic of the spring, as is, the rubber hose is so I could direct the flow into a bucket for measuring purposes, the structures above are where it's going. I will only be using a fraction (around 2-3000 GPD) of its 17,000+ GPD output. To use it all, pump it all uphill, I'd need an AC pump, and need to run wires about 900', BIG wires, for about a 15 amp load. Don't need that much, and if I ever sell the lower 30 acres for a homesite, the remaining flow will be more than adequate to supply a home, with appropiate underground storage, gravity flowed no less. I heavily researched using a water ram pump, but don't have the needed head pressure.

 

[nbryan]

Lay a poly marker ribbon (or 2 or 3) in the dirt right above your line. Just like buried electrical conduit marker tape.
Could save someone from making a big mess down the road.

 

[fried1765]

That was my first thought as well. 17K gallons a day is a veritable creek.

My 1HP Goulds shallow well pump produces 10 gal per minute from a 2" well.
That is 14,400 gals per day.
Hardly a "veritable creek"

 

[fried1765]

Couple of months ago used a subsoiler with a curved PVC tube attached to bury couple hundred feet of cable for some lights. Depth was about 12"-15" through dirt and then across a couple of drive ways. Used a 40-50 HP. Project went fine.

Saying that to say it can be done. However, if I was doing 2000' and wanted only one piece of pipe requiring the reel to be rolled along the trench I would definitely rent a trencher to do the job. Much easier, less stress, more flexibility for the solution of unknown problems, and could easily do by yourself. Dig the trench (any depth you choose) according to the material you're in. Then pull the roll of piping with a bar through the reel with your tractor, Then lay the pipe in the ditch. Then backfill.

A trencher is SO much easier!! And backfilling a 2000' trench with a trencher takes about 45 minutes because they have an angle blade and just push the crumbs in as you parallel the ditch. Not going at it from 90 deg angles with a loader.

Backfilling, is very straightforward, with my 32 HP Ford 1920 pulling the EA Deluxe 6 Way Scrape blade, set at maximum angle.

 

[D2Cat]

Backfilling, is very straightforward, with my 32 HP Ford 1920 pulling the EA Deluxe 6 Way Scrape blade, set at maximum angle.

Backfilling is even more straightforward with a 40 HP trencher with a 6-way backfill hydraulic blade!

 

[skeets]

Well boys that is a hell of a lot of water to me, my well is an iffy 2 gallon a minute and I have a Coyote box set up and a 3k tank. If I had that much water I wouldnt worry about nuttin ! Good call on the trencher! Have fun, and please show your pump set up and every thing

 

[Henro]

I know how much flow my spring has when water lever is high underground somewhere, and 5 GPM is flowing. The picture of that tub you showed in the post above sure surprised me.

I would have expected to see a bit of a water fall coming over the edge, rather than just a little bit on the side of the tank...

Are you sure you got the 12 GPM figure right, rather than 1.2 GPM?