Need Education on the "Power Beyond" Port

davidmem

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Equipment
Soon to be owner of Kubota B2601 Toro TimeCutter Model 7577
Mar 14, 2021
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Bethany, CT
Hello. Newbie here...

I see there are "power beyond" ports available on a B2601. If I understand, this is an optional hydraulic circuit that can be utilized.

My question is what is this used for? Can it be used for the front end "3rd function"? Can it be used on the 3 pt hitch as an option to articulate something, like say move a blade left and right, or power the log splitter?

I'm asking because I don't thing I need third function up front...I really don't think I will use a grapple. Wondering if I don't use the power beyond circuit up front if it can be used at the 3 pt hitch?

Trying to learn and appreciate the help.

Only use I see up front for the 3rd function is my snowerblower deflector, but the deflector can be run from a diverter up front on the blower and does not really need the "true third function".

Thoughts and help welcome.

David
 

RBA50

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Apr 29, 2013
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I have a B2320. I am planning to use the power beyond for rear remotes, just as you are asking. I have the valve I plan to use, but have not gotten as far as mounting it and plumbing it. From what I have learned so far, it just takes a couple adapters and some hoses, plus a return line from the valve to tank. I need to get my mount made so I can determine hose lengths before I tear into the plumbing. I found the Kubota 3rd function installation manual for my tractor online, and was able to determine the proper adapters, which I also have. The actual adapter are only a few dollars each, hoses likewise. Valve is the most expensive part, and that can vary greatly depending on what you want.
 
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B737

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LX3310
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If you haven't taken delivery of your machine, call your dealer add the 3rd function and rear remote set. The machine is prob in its shipping crate, this is an ideal time to do it. Will add tremendous versatility to your machine in the future when you get a grapple, because you will :)

Just get it over with, so it's done, you'll thank us later! Will prob only be ~ $1,600 together.
 
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old and tired

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L2800 HST; 2005; R4
That video confused me... and I've already added an extra 3 spool valve to my tractor!?!?

Power Beyond = High pressure line which you can divert (elsewhere) to power other cylinders.

Think of it as a main highway that travels from the pump through different towns but it's a loop and you end up back to the main holding tank waiting to be pumped out again.

The high pressure oil will bypass all the exits (valves) until you divert the pressure off the main highway.

The first "exit" that the high pressure can take is the front end loader, where high pressure can be used to lift or curl the bucket. But high pressure returns to the highway through the power beyond port. Down to the next exit valve or the 3 point hitch or if no one needs pressure (power) - it simply returns to the tank as high pressure.

If you install another valve you insert it so that you can use that high pressure to power another feature (cylinder for angling a blade or Top Link or Side Link). The final exit is the 3 point hitch; it's the final toll booth that dumps the high pressure oil back into the tank....
 
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DeepWoods

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B2650HSDC Woodland Mills WC68 Wood Chipper
Apr 10, 2019
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Bigfork Minnesota
If you haven't taken delivery of your machine, call your dealer add the 3rd function and rear remote set. The machine is prob in its shipping crate, this is an ideal time to do it. Will add tremendous versatility to your machine in the future when you get a grapple, because you will :)

Just get it over with, so it's done, you'll thank us later! Will prob only be ~ $1,600 together.
Totally agree with this statement. I did get the third function added before delivery, but didn’t get the rear remotes, and now wish I had. Having the rear remotes added now means I would have to find a way to get the tractor back to the dealer. Or pay them to pick it up and bring it back when they were done with it. Yes the added hydraulics cost more money, but everything you do on a tractor does.

Following all your other posts on being able to have hydraulic deflection on your snowblower has made me rethink the decision making process. If you know you want hydraulic deflection, adding the third function gives you the ability to have other things controlled by it as well. Think grapple. The cost of adding a diverter valve will do it as well, but when you take the snowblower off, the diverter goes with it and the ability to use it for something else. The third function stays with the tractor and can be used when needed on other implements.

Something else to consider, if you have the dealer install the third function and rear remotes they will be covered under warranty. And if you get zero percent financing the sting of the extra cost won’t hurt as much.

I was in your same spot two years ago, looking to buy my first tractor, I came here and got some good advise, and got educated by the members here. I now know the mistakes I made by not listening to the advise given to me. Yes this is a big decision and a lot of money that will be spent, but you have already decided to get the tractor, so use the advice given, and get the rear remotes and third function added now. I’ve always said, If your going to New York, why get off in Cincinnati.
 
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NCL4701

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I agree with those who advise to add the rear remotes and a third function on the front now. It may be a character flaw of mine, but I know dropping a couple thousand more at purchase is something I could do but taking it back and spending the money to add them later would be more problematic for me. Only regret I have in the whole deal was not telling the dealer to put three rear remotes on before delivery and put a top and tail on it. I did get the third function to run a grapple because I knew I needed that day one.

Maybe someday I’ll be able to spoil myself with the top and tail but for now I’m turning cranks and there are times with the box scrape that wastes a significant amount of time. Financing wasn’t involved in my case, just the pain of parting with the money. Particularly if financing is involved, bite the bullet and get it right from day one.

Sometimes I wish I had gone a size up, but then I get it in a tight spot where it wouldn’t fit if it was 1” bigger and I’m reminded why I didn’t go with an M, so no regret there. Have never wished for anything smaller.
 
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DizzyHeaded

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L3901 DT
Jun 27, 2022
4
0
1
Virginia
Ok so I’m kind of a little confused about all this. I have an L3901 with the LA525 front loader. I’m wanting to install 2 rear remotes. In some ways it looks like all I have to do is run a line from the block to the rear kit and from there to the valve on the bucket?? Other ways looks like I have to install all kinds of different kits, 3rd function and all that. So what am I supposed to do?
 

TheOldHokie

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Ok so I’m kind of a little confused about all this. I have an L3901 with the LA525 front loader. I’m wanting to install 2 rear remotes. In some ways it looks like all I have to do is run a line from the block to the rear kit and from there to the valve on the bucket?? Other ways looks like I have to install all kinds of different kits, 3rd function and all that. So what am I supposed to do?
On your L3901 your choice is OEM remotes or DIY. Third function is an additional option that you can add at the same or a later time.

The plumbing is very simple:

  1. Disconnect the LA525 loader valve power beyond return hose at the hydraulic outlet block under the right floor board and connect it to the pressure IN on your remote valve. If it is too short to reach you just use a longer hose.
  2. Run a new hose from the power beyond outlet port on your auxiliary valve back to the port on the hydraulic outlet block where the loader valve was previously connected.
  3. Run a new line from the tank return on the new remote valve to the tank return port on teh hydraulic outlet block. The loader valve is already connected to that port so you will need to add a tee for connecting the second hose.
Thats it - the remote valve is connected to the tractor and ready for use. all that remains is to add the connections for the rear outlets to it.

The OEM remotes are the same except that they mount to an aluminum hydraulic manifold installed under the seat. The manifold bolts to the side of the transmission and has that tank return built in using a port on the side of the transmission housing. The valve handles also come up through a guide plate located right next to the operators seat next to the 3pt lift control lever. That makes the install very neat, eliminates the third hose run, and is well integrated into the operator's station. The downside is it comes in multiple pieces with a $2500 price tag for three remotes as opposed to about $500 for a DIY valve.

Here are a few pictures of my knockoff of the factory remotes to give you an idea of how they mount. The nextto last picture is a DIY outlet panel and the last picture is a single spool DIY valve mounted next to the loader valve. You could easily put a two spool valve in that position and run the hoses to rear outlet panel. Not as neat as the OEM arrangement but a lot less expensive. You can located the DIY valve anywhere you want - some people put it on the fender or ROPS where its closer to the rear outlets.

Dan

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torch

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B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Jun 10, 2016
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Muskoka, Ont.
"Power Beyond" is a way to add additional control valves to an open centre hydraulic system, which requires valves to be configured in series.

The last valve in the chain is usually the 3ph, which has an internal "return" line and because it is last, requires no PB port to pass fluid to the next valve.

All upstream valves require 3 lines -- the supply from the pump or previous valve (often labelled "P" for pump), the PB line to the next valve in the series and a return line to the fluid reservoir (often labelled "T" for tank). Banks of valves (eg: FEL joystick) generally only have 3 external ports and the other connections are internal to the ganged block. Rear remotes are often configured to be ganged like this, so you still only need 3 hoses no matter if you have 1, 2 or 3 rear remote outlets.

Note I say "supply" rather than the term "high pressure" used by Oldandtired. A Closed Centre system such as used by John Deere, has a high pressure line, but the supply line on an OC system is normally at very low pressure. The pressure in that line only rises when a function is used, and only the section from the pump to that particular control valve. But he is correct that the flow is diverted to the function in use. (note that Closed Center systems have no PB port and only need 2 lines per control valve).

The fluid required to move a cylinder flows from the pump, through the open centers of any upstream valves, to the control valve spool being operated. That spool closes off the flow through the PB port and diverts it to the cylinder, causing it to move. When it moves, fluid from the opposite end of the cylinder is pushed out and returns to the tank through the return line of the control valve. As the load increases, the pressure on the supply line increases. If the load is too heavy or the end of the cylinder travel is reached, the control valve's internal relief valve will shunt excess fluid to the tank through the return line.

Note that this means the maximum pressure available at ANY control will be equal to the LOWEST relief valve setting anywhere upstream in the chain. If certain functions require higher pressures than other functions, the higher pressure function should be placed earlier in the series.

It is physically possible, but a Very Bad Idea, to omit the PB port and simply chain valves using the return line to feed the next control in series. Yes, in normal operation, the return from cylinders will simply flow through the open centers of downstream valves and eventually to the tank. HOWEVER, this two-hose configuration opens the possibility of compounding relief valves. Upstream valves, lines and the pump itself could be subjected to the sum of relief valve settings if two controls were inadvertently actuated simultaneously, with catastrophic and irreparable results.

An alternative solution is a Diverter Valve (not to be confused with a diverter valve built into the tractor). This is usually an electric solenoid valve installed between an existing control valve and a hydraulic cylinder that can be used to operate a different cylinder with the control valve instead. Cheaper and simpler than an additional control valve in the series, it does not require a third hose, since it is fed from an existing spool valve. Popular for grapples: push the button and the curl/dump function is diverted to close/open the grapple instead. Could also be used to allow a single rear remote to operate both a top and a tilt cylinder.

Finally, note that specific models may be pre-piped to facilitate adding FEL and/or rear remote control valves. The logical flow of fluid will be as above, but the specific connection points may be more conveniently located. Reference should be made to the FSM and/or parts diagrams for details.
 
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TheOldHokie

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"Power Beyond" is a way to add additional control valves to an open centre hydraulic system, which requires valves to be configured in series.

The last valve in the chain is usually the 3ph, which has an internal "return" line and because it is last, requires no PB port to pass fluid to the next valve.

All upstream valves require 3 lines -- the supply from the pump or previous valve (often labelled "P" for pump), the PB line to the next valve in the series and a return line to the fluid reservoir (often labelled "T" for tank). Banks of valves (eg: FEL joystick) generally only have 3 external ports and the other connections are internal to the ganged block. Rear remotes are often configured to be ganged like this, so you still only need 3 hoses no matter if you have 1, 2 or 3 rear remote outlets.

Note I say "supply" rather than the term "high pressure" used by Oldandtired. A Closed Centre system such as used by John Deere, has a high pressure line, but the supply line on an OC system is normally at very low pressure. The pressure in that line only rises when a function is used, and only the section from the pump to that particular control valve. But he is correct that the flow is diverted to the function in use. (note that Closed Center systems have no PB port and only need 2 lines per control valve).

The fluid required to move a cylinder flows from the pump, through the open centers of any upstream valves, to the control valve spool being operated. That spool closes off the flow through the PB port and diverts it to the cylinder, causing it to move. When it moves, fluid from the opposite end of the cylinder is pushed out and returns to the tank through the return line of the control valve. As the load increases, the pressure on the supply line increases. If the load is too heavy or the end of the cylinder travel is reached, the control valve's internal relief valve will shunt excess fluid to the tank through the return line.

Note that this means the maximum pressure available at ANY control will be equal to the LOWEST relief valve setting anywhere upstream in the chain. If certain functions require higher pressures than other functions, the higher pressure function should be placed earlier in the series.

It is physically possible, but a Very Bad Idea, to omit the PB port and simply chain valves using the return line to feed the next control in series. Yes, in normal operation, the return from cylinders will simply flow through the open centers of downstream valves and eventually to the tank. HOWEVER, this two-hose configuration opens the possibility of compounding relief valves. Upstream valves, lines and the pump itself could be subjected to the sum of relief valve settings if two controls were inadvertently actuated simultaneously, with catastrophic and irreparable results.

An alternative solution is a Diverter Valve (not to be confused with a diverter valve built into the tractor). This is usually an electric solenoid valve installed between an existing control valve and a hydraulic cylinder that can be used to operate a different cylinder with the control valve instead. Cheaper and simpler than an additional control valve in the series, it does not require a third hose, since it is fed from an existing spool valve. Popular for grapples: push the button and the curl/dump function is diverted to close/open the grapple instead. Could also be used to allow a single rear remote to operate both a top and a tilt cylinder.

Finally, note that specific models may be pre-piped to facilitate adding FEL and/or rear remote control valves. The logical flow of fluid will be as above, but the specific connection points may be more conveniently located. Reference should be made to the FSM and/or parts diagrams for details.
Not exactly. Using the tank port on an open center valve for high pressure carry over (power beyond) does not compound relief settings. It prevents the relief valve in that valve and only that valve from operating. All properly configured up or down stream reliefs will work fine.

Another problem using tank for high pressure carryover is it subjects the end seals on the spools to much higher pressure than they are designed for.

Dan
 

torch

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B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Jun 10, 2016
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Muskoka, Ont.
Not exactly. Using the tank port on an open center valve for high pressure carry over (power beyond) does not compound relief settings.
To clarify: The relief valves compare supply pressure to tank pressure, not atmospheric pressure. If the downstream valve is inadvertently operated simultaneously, the tank line is cut off from the supply line excepting for the relief valve. Pressure rises in the supply line to the point of the relief valve setting. Let us say that is 1700 psi, for the sake of argument. Well within the capabilities of the system.

Now, consider the upstream relief valve at that point. It is under 1700 psi as well -- but the difference between supply side and tank side is 0 psi. Operate that control and the upstream relief valve will not open until the pressure difference is 1700 psi. Since the tank side is already at 1700 psi, the total pressure on the upstream valve, hydraulic pump, etc. above atmospheric could theoretically rise to 3400 psi, although there is a good chance something would break before then.
 

TheOldHokie

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To clarify: The relief valves compare supply pressure to tank pressure, not atmospheric pressure. If the downstream valve is inadvertently operated simultaneously, the tank line is cut off from the supply line excepting for the relief valve. Pressure rises in the supply line to the point of the relief valve setting. Let us say that is 1700 psi, for the sake of argument. Well within the capabilities of the system.

Now, consider the upstream relief valve at that point. It is under 1700 psi as well -- but the difference between supply side and tank side is 0 psi. Operate that control and the upstream relief valve will not open until the pressure difference is 1700 psi. Since the tank side is already at 1700 psi, the total pressure on the upstream valve, hydraulic pump, etc. above atmospheric could theoretically rise to 3400 psi, although there is a good chance something would break before then.
When both sides of the relief are seing inlet pressure it will NEVER open. Top schematic is open center valve using tank to supply down stream device. Bottom is power beyond valve supplying down stream device - tank is isolated from center.

Dan

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DizzyHeaded

New member

Equipment
L3901 DT
Jun 27, 2022
4
0
1
Virginia
On your L3901 your choice is OEM remotes or DIY. Third function is an additional option that you can add at the same or a later time.

The plumbing is very simple:

  1. Disconnect the LA525 loader valve power beyond return hose at the hydraulic outlet block under the right floor board and connect it to the pressure IN on your remote valve. If it is too short to reach you just use a longer hose.
  2. Run a new hose from the power beyond outlet port on your auxiliary valve back to the port on the hydraulic outlet block where the loader valve was previously connected.
  3. Run a new line from the tank return on the new remote valve to the tank return port on teh hydraulic outlet block. The loader valve is already connected to that port so you will need to add a tee for connecting the second hose.
Thats it - the remote valve is connected to the tractor and ready for use. all that remains is to add the connections for the rear outlets to it.

The OEM remotes are the same except that they mount to an aluminum hydraulic manifold installed under the seat. The manifold bolts to the side of the transmission and has that tank return built in using a port on the side of the transmission housing. The valve handles also come up through a guide plate located right next to the operators seat next to the 3pt lift control lever. That makes the install very neat, eliminates the third hose run, and is well integrated into the operator's station. The downside is it comes in multiple pieces with a $2500 price tag for three remotes as opposed to about $500 for a DIY valve.

Here are a few pictures of my knockoff of the factory remotes to give you an idea of how they mount. The nextto last picture is a DIY outlet panel and the last picture is a single spool DIY valve mounted next to the loader valve. You could easily put a two spool valve in that position and run the hoses to rear outlet panel. Not as neat as the OEM arrangement but a lot less expensive. You can located the DIY valve anywhere you want - some people put it on the fender or ROPS where its closer to the rear outlets.

Dan

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View attachment 83056
So the setup you’re describing will be a continuous loop eliminating the need to unplug the from the kit and reconnect the two hoses back together when not in use?
 

TheOldHokie

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L3901/LA525, B7200DT/B1630, G2160/RCK60, G2460/RCK60
Apr 6, 2021
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Myersville, MD
windyridgefarm.us
So the setup you’re describing will be a continuous loop eliminating the need to unplug the from the kit and reconnect the two hoses back together when not in use?
That is the way it works. The valve for the remotes is part of the tractor hydraulic system just like the loader valve.

Dan
 
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