Traded L4060HSTC for MX6000 cab

[majorwager]

Land Pride, which is owned by Kubota, has a "Kubota Matched" filter on their website which for example returns five single spindle rotary cutters for an MX tractor. Those cutters are suitable for tractors with engine hp ranging from 35hp to 130hp. For some reason the RCR1884 isn't on the list but it shows up as matched to the B, L and M series.

The MX owner's manual includes an Implement Weight List on page 29 in the Implement Limitations section. The maximum cutting width of a rotary cutter is 84" and the maximum weight is given as 1,000lb. The five models "matched" by Land Pride cover eleven models in all. Only one model is over 1,000lb at 1,070lb.

I don't see what the problem is here, and I don't see that Kubota is "cleverly" marketing implements. They and Land Pride are transparent in implement selection. That's how I see it at least.

My fault for wandering into the weeds over implement selection. Was not actually applicable to the heat discussion. The attempted point was that Kubota, not their purchased subsidiary, only provides a lifting capacity rating. I do not believe they state that every implement within that range will perform adequately by PTO drive under any conditions.? Please find that language & post . This is especially true w/ rotary cutters employing a single spindle in a wide sweep, & very tall brush. The 7 ft units are generally an example. Believe if the hp is inadequate, & the temperature of the hydraulic transmission is taxed as a result, Kubota accepts no culpability. Doubt land pride will either, simple stating customer abuse. You extrapolate that if the tractor can lift it, then it will power it. Believing weight is the only parameter under consideration is a false premise. The "matched" assertion is simply a unilateral decision on the part of the end user, who owns the responsibility for the conditions under which implement shall be used. Again My experience w/ a seven ft rotary cutter was quite unsatisfactory on MY MX tractor. If YMMV differs, so be it.

 

[Jchonline]

I traded my L4060 cab for an MX6000 cab yesterday. I’ve had the L4060 about 3 years. It’s an awesome tractor. I needed more PTO horsepower. I didn’t want to spend for an L6060. The Grand L60 has a number of luxury features I’ll miss, especially the HDS, electronic cruise control, linked throttle, nice multifunctional LCD display and the throttle up button on the loader. However, the MX has the same cab just the plain HST and dash. You get the high horsepower engine and a slightly heavier duty tractor for less money. The MX has better power steering and a better loader, better front tires, and slightly more weight. We’ll see how I like it…if it turns my flail mower better through the heavy grass, I’ll be a happy camper.

The main thing you missed, is the 3PT hydraulics. THe L6060 has external hydraulic cylinders which provide more lift as well as much easier service. The MX is internal. The FEL lift capacity is negligible….I think its 10 KG.

 

[mcmxi]

I do not believe they state that every implement within that range will perform adequately by PTO drive under any conditions.? Please find that language & post . ... You extrapolate that if the tractor can lift it, then it will power it. Believing weight is the only parameter under consideration is a false premise.

I'm not arguing with anyone here. All Kubota and Land Pride can do is provide reasonable estimates and matches based on typical power available and expected customer use. I've simply repeated what the owner's manual and Land Pride state and have made no attempt to extrapolate anything. I'm pleased with my two tractors and two mowers so I don't have anything to argue about.

 

[majorwager]

The basic facts are that there are many more compact tractors with HST than gear transmissions, and rotary cutting is the single most common use for these machines. Yet there are damn few HST failures. Ask any dealer service department what is the most common drivetrain repair; they will say clutch replacement. HST failures happen, but they are rare. This shouldn’t be a concern for purchasing decisions for compact or utility sized machines.

Lets look @ this post in segments. I do not have the facts as to "most common use" for compact tractors, and rotary mowing may well be on the list. However, loader functions, finish mowing, snow removal, site grading, are just a FEW very popular tasks.
I have not "surveyed" multiple dealers as the failures that befall these tractors, doubt you have either, perhaps one, or two.
The point is I never stated the failure is immediate & sudden, but rather the heat aspect takes a toll, explained below. The dealers do not arbitrariy test for system efficiency, unless there is a specific complaint.

Prefer you do not twist my words, requires repeating, never stated that the excessive heat caused by over taxing the transmission through temperature, caused sudden & immediate failures.
This heat affects the components, such as the shaft seals on the pump. Believe Kubota uses the same seals in the system despite using their synthetic lubricants. Why is this relative
I have read that high temps, even synthetics, thin excessively, additives breakdown, & may not recover upon cooling. The end result is the pump still circulates the fluid but a portion can bypass said seals and pump components. The oil viscosity (resistence to shear) of the fluid is what converts pressure into rotational torque. This component wear is not sudden & immediate as noted but does reduce the force exercted to the ground over time. Yes, everything wears over time, the subject of my posts is that this wear is excelerated by high transmission temps. (Pushing the tractor reasonable limits)

Again, never criticized the HST concept, I own two. All of this subsequent nonsense stems from my post that rotary mowing in hot weather, through heavy grasses &light brush, causes high transmission temps. I specifically suggested to select cooler portions of the day for mowing while abstaining from long mowing durations to reduce HST wear. I further noted that gear driven tractors fair better for this task.
From there the keyboard cowboys wish to make this a hill to die upon.
Some folks have the delusional belief that comments posted on these forums have some gospel like impact upon wold affairs. Except for Dave in Ontario, not sure any of the authors here are practicing engineers, employed in engineering divisions of a tractor manufacturing company or have articles/books published in applicable & recognized trade journals or the library of Congress.
There is helpful information to be had herein but few, very few of us, yes myself included, are credentialed "experts"

 

[troverman]

Ah, so unless you are an engineer, it doesn’t count. My hundreds of hours of mowing during the hot summer months, AC wide open, are of no value. Mow up a steep hill with thick grass, back down, move over, repeat a hundred or more times, no overheat. And that sneaky Kubota, selling you implements for your HST tractor that could only be operated by a gear driven tractor. My dealer is lucky I wasn’t out in the service bays listening to literally hundreds of customers cussing out Kubota for their worn out HST transmissions.

Frankly, I’m amazed at all the automatic transmissions in heavy duty diesel trucks. After all, they too use hydraulic fluid as the motivating force.

And what if all the zero turn mowers, all HST of course, mowing lots of acres over hill and dale, every day, all year. Those HST units go several thousand hours with minimal maintenance. Somehow they don’t overheat.

 

[jyoutz]

Lets look @ this post in segments. I do not have the facts as to "most common use" for compact tractors, and rotary mowing may well be on the list. However, loader functions, finish mowing, snow removal, site grading, are just a FEW very popular tasks.
I have not "surveyed" multiple dealers as the failures that befall these tractors, doubt you have either, perhaps one, or two.
The point is I never stated the failure is immediate & sudden, but rather the heat aspect takes a toll, explained below. The dealers do not arbitrariy test for system efficiency, unless there is a specific complaint.

Prefer you do not twist my words, requires repeating, never stated that the excessive heat caused by over taxing the transmission through temperature, caused sudden & immediate failures.
This heat affects the components, such as the shaft seals on the pump. Believe Kubota uses the same seals in the system despite using their synthetic lubricants. Why is this relative
I have read that high temps, even synthetics, thin excessively, additives breakdown, & may not recover upon cooling. The end result is the pump still circulates the fluid but a portion can bypass said seals and pump components. The oil viscosity (resistence to shear) of the fluid is what converts pressure into rotational torque. This component wear is not sudden & immediate as noted but does reduce the force exercted to the ground over time. Yes, everything wears over time, the subject of my posts is that this wear is excelerated by high transmission temps. (Pushing the tractor reasonable limits)

Again, never criticized the HST concept, I own two. All of this subsequent nonsense stems from my post that rotary mowing in hot weather, through heavy grasses &light brush, causes high transmission temps. I specifically suggested to select cooler portions of the day for mowing while abstaining from long mowing durations to reduce HST wear. I further noted that gear driven tractors fair better for this task.
From there the keyboard cowboys wish to make this a hill to die upon.
Some folks have the delusional belief that comments posted on these forums have some gospel like impact upon wold affairs. Except for Dave in Ontario, not sure any of the authors here are practicing engineers, employed in engineering divisions of a tractor manufacturing company or have articles/books published in applicable & recognized trade journals or the library of Congress.
There is helpful information to be had herein but few, very few of us, yes myself included, are credentialed "experts"

Let’s try this again very simply. HST transmissions have been the most common transmission in tractors less than 70hp for the past 3 decades. They are used in every weather condition, with most prolonged uses during summer doing field mowing. Yet HST failures from overheating or other causes are uncommon. This is a non issue for most buyers and owners. There are reasons to prefer gear vs HST, but durability isn’t an issue in the <70hp category.

 

[troverman]

Let’s try this again very simply. HST transmissions have been the most common transmission in tractors less than 70hp for the past 3 decades. They are used in every weather condition, with most prolonged uses during summer doing field mowing. Yet HST failures from overheating or other causes are uncommon. This is a non issue for most buyers and owners. There are reasons to prefer gear vs HST, but durability isn’t an issue in the <70hp category.

These days, lots of heavy construction equipment use HST transmissions too. This includes wheel loaders, excavators, and dozers. We're talking far more than 70HP and far more weight than almost any tractor.

Even large ag tractors are running CVT transmissions now and no longer gears and a shuttle. The notion that HST is not a good choice for these tractors is absurd. Now, that's not to say some machines might not have adequate cooling, but the topic is the HST transmission as a whole.

 

[majorwager]

Xś

Let’s try this again very simply. HST transmissions have been the most common transmission in tractors less than 70hp for the past 3 decades. They are used in every weather condition, with most prolonged uses during summer doing field mowing. Yet HST failures from overheating or other causes are uncommon. This is a non issue for most buyers and owners. There are reasons to prefer gear vs HST, but durability isn’t an issue in the <70hp category.

Add this footnote: these transmissions are not offered in the + 70 up range is because those tractors are often used in sustained haying & small Ag row crop operations WITH PTO, where excessive heat may result in consumer complaints. If this transmission with PTO, is so adaptable why has the Ag community resisted adoption

Yes, some large Ag, const. machines employ the hydro, w/o the PTO, also some combines example, but it is the combo w/ the PTO implement that creates the issue)

The examples noted by Troverman do not include a PTO option

Kubota & others are wise enough to draw the line @ the 7060, ( M6060 still built?)

I posted the example of the New Holland TV-140-145. It failed miserably (hydrostatic) even though the rotating operator station was quite appealing. Farmers refused to purchase when the issues circulated & NH was forced to mothball the tractor . I am quite familiar w/ the International hydro 70 & hydro 80 of the 1970's and these tractors were quite successful in haying operations. But the rigorous requirements on modern Ag, even on the hobby scale, dictate the HST WITH a PTO, impractical.
Owners of these toy compact tractors have self reported (tractor forums) limited annual use, many in the 100 hour range, wherein obvious issues do not often manifest themselves, Not all compact owners push their hydro to sustained. limits. For them the hydro is great, especially for loader tasks. The heat wear for those that do abuse is extended over a long term, & by then, folks chalk performance decline to age, & NOT how this wear may be accelerated by tractor use, or abuse if you prefer.

Troverman, The original POST is the subject of this discussion.
The issue has been expanded to all HST. I take some responsibility for that, BUT, Has no bearing upon my original post. The transmission (cooling capacity) of the compact HST tractor is simply limited by design. In many cases the GPM flow is = to reservoir capacity. The cooler (hp heat dissipation) is tiny. I am not an expert but read application charts effectively. Add the strain of a PTO implement, operating in hot weather, for sustained periods, rotary cutting dense growth, and the hydraulic cooling capacity is over taxed. READ my ORIGINAL Post. . Saying this till my tongue bleeds
For the last time, it is my experience & opinion. If yours differs, So be it. Readers draw their own conclusions. BUT you Are NOT the Arbitrator in Chief of content despite an egotistical presumption

FINALLY,
This thread could continue ad nauseam, but I have nothing more to add. By now, any viewer following has succumbed to extreme medical boredom & has moved on, a path I shall also follow.

 

[troverman]

Well, a combine with an HST trans is running a cutting head so I'm going to consider that the same as a PTO. Let's not pretend that only the PTO makes heat - heat sources can be from any use of the hydraulic fluid, including the front end loader (if equipped), power steering, 3-point lift, drive motors, etc. If a wheel loader repeatedly moving into a pile and lifting and dumping can function with HST, than anything can.