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[GeoHorn]

You explained why aviation oil, containing dispersants rather than detergents, is advantageous in an aircraft engine, because it doesn't result in metallic residues.

Do you know what the advantages (if any) are of detergents? Are they simply cheaper or do they have some performance advantage within the operational envelope of a non-aviation engine?

”Detergent” motor oil is a phrase applied to late-1950s/early 1960s automotive oils, and those terms have been loosely (erroneously) applied to aviation.

Engine oils are refined/packaged to be without additives of any kind….(so-called “mineral” oils)… which are typically used in older equipment because “detergent-additives” have a cleaning effect that can dislodge caked/solidified residues which remain in-situ on stationary engine components such as crankcase and sump walls, non-moving items and areas which do not directly require lubrication…. the majority of the insides of engines.
Pistons, bearings, bushings, gears, impellers, etc. make physical contact with other moving parts and naturally “clean” those areas they contact. “Detergents” can adversely affect sludge/residues in older engines by dissolving and re-distributing those contaminates and can actually contribute to damage when suddenly released into the lubrication-stream. That is why it is recommended not to introduce “detergent oils” into equipment which has long-operated on non-detergent oil.
An engine which is “New” or newly-rebuilt is often “broken in” on mineral oils because no anti-friction additives which can prolong or prevent “break-in” are present in “mineral” oil. (Synthetics are often also avoided for break-in, but not always, depending upon manufacturing tolerances.)
The advantages of a “detergent” oil in a non-aviation engine which has not been long-operated without detergent oil …is that the engine interior will remain cleaner as contaminants are kept in suspention until the pump can push them into/thru the filter to be captured. However, not all contaminants are solids…so filters don’t capture them. Those soluble contaminates are removed at the next oil-drain period.

Aircraft operating in lower atmospheric pressures (altitudes) can develop a detonation problem if metallic residues in the combustion chambers “glow” and cause pre-ignition, and any existing sludge might be freed by the use of detergents…. So aviation oils do not use them, instead relying upon “dispersants” which bring the contaminates to the filters for removal.

HOpe that helps.

 

[ejb11235]

”Detergent” motor oil is a phrase applied to late-1950s/early 1960s automotive oils, and those terms have been loosely (erroneously) applied to aviation.

Engine oils are refined/packaged to be without additives of any kind….(so-called “mineral” oils)… which are typically used in older equipment because “detergent-additives” have a cleaning effect that can dislodge caked/solidified residues which remain in-situ on stationary engine components such as crankcase and sump walls, non-moving items and areas which do not directly require lubrication…. the majority of the insides of engines.
Pistons, bearings, bushings, gears, impellers, etc. make physical contact with other moving parts and naturally “clean” those areas they contact. “Detergents” can adversely affect sludge/residues in older engines by dissolving and re-distributing those contaminates and can actually contribute to damage when suddenly released into the lubrication-stream. That is why it is recommended not to introduce “detergent oils” into equipment which has long-operated on non-detergent oil.
An engine which is “New” or newly-rebuilt is often “broken in” on mineral oils because no anti-friction additives which can prolong or prevent “break-in” are present in “mineral” oil. (Synthetics are often also avoided for break-in, but not always, depending upon manufacturing tolerances.)
The advantages of a “detergent” oil in a non-aviation engine which has not been long-operated without detergent oil …is that the engine interior will remain cleaner as contaminants are kept in suspention until the pump can push them into/thru the filter to be captured. However, not all contaminants are solids…so filters don’t capture them. Those soluble contaminates are removed at the next oil-drain period.

Aircraft operating in lower atmospheric pressures (altitudes) can develop a detonation problem if metallic residues in the combustion chambers “glow” and cause pre-ignition, and any existing sludge might be freed by the use of detergents…. So aviation oils do not use them, instead relying upon “dispersants” which bring the contaminates to the filters for removal.

HOpe that helps.

Thanks. I read your posting and then two additional resources:

1) https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/how-does-detergents-and-dispersants-work-in-oil.18621/

2) https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/issues-with-oil/

The second one was especially helpful. Here's a particularly relevant snippet:

As most aircraft owners are aware, automotive oil isn’t appropriate for aircraft piston engines. Auto oil is designed for engines that are water-cooled and built to very tight tolerances. Air-cooled engines are constructed to looser tolerances and are specifically designed to burn oil. That means auto engines operate at much lower temperatures than do aircraft powerplants. Oils specifically intended for auto engines will break down in the high temperatures of aircraft engines. These oils leave metallic ash additives, which, when burned in a combustion chamber, leave deposits that could cause detonation.

It hadn't occurred to me that aircraft engines are air-cooled.

 

[NoJacketRequired]

I also don’t know which particular “contenental engine” you are discussing that was “built before screw on filters were invented”…. so we’re not being sufficiently specific to be accurate in our statements.

Try a C85-12F. Or ANY of the small Continentals that power so many of the pre- and post-war aviation boom airplanes. They are equipped with an oil screen, not an oil filter. My C85-12F no longer has an oil screen because it has to be removed as part of the process of installing a TAF-L oil filter adapter. That after-market adapter bridges across two oil ports in the crankcase which previously were covered by a plate which allowed oil to flow from one port to the other. The engine did not come from the factory with a screw-on oil filter nor any provision for one, hence the "modern" aftermarket oil filter adapter which I've installed on mine. Many Lycomings also came from the factory without an oil filter adapter. My Lycoming O-360-A1F6 came with a filter adapter (thankfully).

@fried1765 - if we were located in the same area I would happily take that case of oil off your hands. It keeps well if it's in plastic bottles.

@lugbolt - electric airplanes might be a great idea, until one actually wants to go somewhere in them. The aircraft available to purchase or build today with electric propulsion simply do not have sufficient endurance to be much more than training aircraft which don't go far from home base. That will change as time goes on, but as of today I'm not sure there is a single production aircraft which will haul two people and a couple of bags 100 miles while still meeting current requirements to have 30 minutes of reserve power at destination.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

gee, electric planes should be able to go anywhere, afterall they have a prop up front,can be used like a windmill to generate power, so they can stay up forever !

 

[fried1765]

Try a C85-12F. Or ANY of the small Continentals that power so many of the pre- and post-war aviation boom airplanes. They are equipped with an oil screen, not an oil filter. My C85-12F no longer has an oil screen because it has to be removed as part of the process of installing a TAF-L oil filter adapter. That after-market adapter bridges across two oil ports in the crankcase which previously were covered by a plate which allowed oil to flow from one port to the other. The engine did not come from the factory with a screw-on oil filter nor any provision for one, hence the "modern" aftermarket oil filter adapter which I've installed on mine. Many Lycomings also came from the factory without an oil filter adapter. My Lycoming O-360-A1F6 came with a filter adapter (thankfully).

@fried1765 - if we were located in the same area I would happily take that case of oil off your hands. It keeps well if it's in plastic bottles.

@lugbolt - electric airplanes might be a great idea, until one actually wants to go somewhere in them. The aircraft available to purchase or build today with electric propulsion simply do not have sufficient endurance to be much more than training aircraft which don't go far from home base. That will change as time goes on, but as of today I'm not sure there is a single production aircraft which will haul two people and a couple of bags 100 miles while still meeting current requirements to have 30 minutes of reserve power at destination.

The 20W-50 Phillips X/C oil is in plastic bottles.
I may take it to the local (3,000 ft.) airport, to see if anyone would like to buy it, as suggested here on OTT.

 

[GeoHorn]

Try a C85-12F. Or ANY of the small Continentals that power so many of the pre- and post-war aviation boom airplanes. They are equipped with an oil screen, not an oil filter. My C85-12F no longer has an oil screen because it has to be removed as part of the process of installing a TAF-L oil filter adapter. …….. My Lycoming O-360-A1F6 came with a filter adapter (thankfully).

As I wrote previously, you/we are not being sufficiently specific to be making such wide-ranging comments. It’s not entirely clear WHICH engine you are discussing when you make statements because you apparently own/operate at least TWO DIFFERENT engines from different mfr’s.

You also wrote:

My Lycoming is a 50 hour oil and filter cycle... The Continental doesn't have a recommended cycle because it was built before screw-on oil filters were invented! After adding a filter adapter to that engine I've opted to follow the same 50 hour oil and filter cycle as the Lycoming-powered airplane. A camshaft or crankshaft for this engine is "unobtainium" so changing oil is cheap prevention.

And speaking of changing oil, just received updated pricing on my engine oil of choice. Case price has gone from $98 to $148. Ouch.

The non-spin-on Continental certainly DID have a recommended cycle of 25 hours. And your decision to alter that to what is recommended by your Lycoming is an interesting choice considering that Lycoming has no legal obligation to support Contenental engines. I’d have thought it more supportable to have followed Continentals‘ advice on such converted engines…even if it were the same change-period.
Another resource might be Shell Oil (especially since you may actually use Shell oil in your airplane… AeroShell being the most popular oil in piston aviation.) Rick Roper of Ram Aircraft Engines in the Aero Shell article states “oil and filter every 25 hours”. Why? Because it makes no difference if the oil is filtered or NOT…. It still contains the sulfuric and nitric acids that filters do not remove and which previous 25 hour oil changes were predicated upon. https://www.shell.com/business-cust...-column/aeroshell-answer-column-with-ram.html

I own two Contenental engines converted to spin-on oil filters and remain with the only legal guidance provided by Continental for those engines: 25-hour oil and filter changes. You are certainly within your rights to do as you wish with your own engines. Your passengers and lawyers for people on the ground may rely upon the original engine mf’rs and the oil suppliers’ recommendations. (I’m not skeered of lawyers tho’)

Addt’l interesting read: https://www.aviationconsumer.com/uncategorized/aircraft-engine-oil-changes-how-often/

 

[GeoHorn]

Thanks. I read your posting and then two additional resources:
….
It hadn't occurred to me that aircraft engines are air-cooled.

Yes, the vast majority are air-cooled … but that’s not an absolute. WW2 fighters such as the P51, Messerschmitt BF-109, and some others were liquid cooled. One problem with liquid cooled aero engines is that water boils at lower temperatures at lower atmospheric pressure (high altitudes) therefore loses capability to remove heat at higher altitudes. There are solutions to address that but they add undesirable weight and complexity.

 

[jyoutz]

View attachment 82065

we are getting what we were promised

Why is the US producing crude oil at record levels this year and planning to set new records next year? Could it be that oil companies make business decisions based on business, not political rhetoric? Read the report.

STEO

 

[GeoHorn]

Why is the US producing crude oil at record levels this year and planning to set new records next year? Could it be that oil companies make business decisions based on business, not political rhetoric? Read the report.

STEO

WHAAA..?? You mean… Biden is NOT the reason…??

 

[fried1765]

WHAAA..?? You mean… Biden is NOT the reason…??

Oh..... he most certainly is!
Check history!
Gas prices in January 2020 were around $2.00/gal.

 

[Ridelght]

Oh..... he most certainly is!
Check history!
Gas prices in January 2020 were around $2.00/gal.

WHAAA..?? You mean… Biden is NOT the reason…??

You guys stated, "business reasons" So if you are in Oil and you're told the current administration wants to end you how much new investing are you going to do? I guess running the USA is like riding a bike. Our president can't do either very well.

Gas prices rose as soon as Biden took office. Putin was a good scape goat.

 

[Dieseldonato]

A year or so ago, when Kubota was offering $10 off per pail of SUDT I picked up 3 and all relevant filters.
The bill still came to over $500. I wonder what it would cost now? Thankfully I have yet to reach my next fluid/filter change interval so am ready for that and will likely be another couple/three years till I need to buy again

Last 5 gallon bucket I bought was $137.00 the 5 gallon bucket I bought a few weeks before that was just over $100.00....
You guys do know kubota doesn't make their own filters? There are many good filter companies that are "after market" that also manufacture for oem's. Fleet guard, Donaldson, Baldwin, wix............

 

[Dieseldonato]

Recently picked up two pails of SUDT2 and the right side (less expensive) hydro filter. With tax, didn't get enough change from $300 to stop for ice cream on the way home. Since Messicks made their move, they are now about 8 minutes away instead of 5

Good thing I had the left (more expensive, with magnet) filter in stock from a sale Messicks ran earlier in the year. Had a gift certificate and wanted to make the most of it when the sale was on so the filter was bought as a spare.

Pretty sure we live pretty close lol, love the new messicks location. Not any closet but not really any farther away. Much easier to get in and out of.

 

[Dieseldonato]

anything for a plane, tractor or jeep. cost more just because they are a plane, a tractor, or a jeep lol

Add cummins, powerstroke, duramax to that list.... and any thing boat related.

 

[Ridelght]

Last 5 gallon bucket I bought was $137.00 the 5 gallon bucket I bought a few weeks before that was just over $100.00....
You guys do know kubota doesn't make their own filters? There are many good filter companies that are "after market" that also manufacture for oem's. Fleet guard, Donaldson, Baldwin, wix............

Wix makes a lot of filters for other companies as well. At least in automotive. Outside branding is a difference.
Lots of youtube videos on this subject for automotive. There are not as many filter factories as there are filter brands. Not sure on Kubota but id think they dont have a filter factory either.

 

[Dieseldonato]

Wix makes a lot of filters for other companies as well. At least in automotive. Outside branding is a difference.
Lots of youtube videos on this subject for automotive. There are not as many filter factories as there are filter brands. Not sure on Kubota but id think they dont have a filter factory either.

I'm actually pretty sure kubota does the same thing most every manufacturer does, bid out for who gets to make filters.

 

[fried1765]

I'm actually pretty sure kubota does the same thing most every manufacturer does, bid out for who gets to make filters.

I always wonder if filters (and other things) made for retailer bids, may sometimes be cheapened just a bit, because the actual manufacturer name is not attached.
Example: Walmart

 

[Dieseldonato]

I always wonder if the filters (and other things) made for bids, may be cheapened just a bit, because the actual manufacturer name is not attached.

I'm sure there are specifications that must be met as requirements with the bid process. Kubota or anyone else isn't going to take a lot of bad engines/transmissions from faulty filters very well, if the lowest bidder cheaps out to save a penny. (Spculation on my point)

 

[fried1765]

I'm sure there are specifications that must be met as requirements with the bid process. Kubota or anyone else isn't going to take a lot of bad engines/transmissions from faulty filters very well, if the lowest bidder cheaps out to save a penny. (Spculation on my point)

Many years ago my dad worked in a curtain factory that made some products for Sears.
The for bid products they made for Sears looked the same as their own brand, but were made from lesser quality material.
Specifically, Kubota may not force their filter companies to "cheap out" on their Kubota branded filters, but nationwide, over a huge line of everyday products, I am sure this is still going on.

 

[Ridelght]

Many years ago my dad worked in a curtain factory that made some products for Sears.
The for bid products they made for Sears looked the same as their own brand, but were made from lesser quality material.
Specifically, Kubota may not force their filter companies to "cheap out" on their Kubota branded filters, but nationwide, over a huge line of everyday products, I am sure this is still going on.

I worked for a major food manufacturer in the 80;s. The packaging was changed to private label, but contents were the same.
I've been told Valvoline makes Kubota's Oils and Baldwin makes the filters for them. don't know for sure but it sounds right.