L3010 GST clutch drags when hot

[lwarranty]

Folks - 45 years in the industry tells me my disc is hanging on the input shaft OR I'm missing something obvious. Since I have no pilot bushing - my experience is telling me - Tractor starts cold, clutch has .75 inch free play at pedal before release bearing contacts clutch fingers, I can feel the pressure plate releasing about 2.5" of stroke with more to go if needed, no funny noises, everything works great. Start to mow or get the rig warm not hot just warm and come to a stop with the clutch and it creeps, if I hit the brake it will stop the tractor but depending on how warm it gets, the problem gets worse. Cold, I can push clutch in and engage PTO, warm I must shuttle into forward or reverse to stop input shaft from spinning, then engage PTO. Question is I've heard they can strip splines - is this the beginning symptoms? Could it be rust on the input shaft - the unit is garaged and although I put a lab scope in the bell housing, it looks clean, no oil leakage, dust, debris, etc - looks great. I am getting ready to pull starter and use lab scope if possible to get a look at the clutch splines. Any input would be appreciated - its useable but I'm afraid something may come apart and grenade my world... Thanks fellers!

UPDATE: 6/5/12

Remove starter and clutch linkage, retracted release bearing fully and gave a good look with lab scope, splines are clean, no oil or grease, all fingers on pressure plate equal distance from release bearing. Re-assembled and same issue, cold clutch releases fine, pto engages and stops when depressing clutch, no forward or reverse creeping. Get it warm just idling, depressing clutch does not fully release, pto spins when clutch is depressed and shuttle forward or reverse, machine creeps - anybody - idea's?

UPDATE 6/5/12

Talked to local Kubota dealer - as stated above I have over 45 years experience, so while remaining open minded, I pity some of the folks who must deal with these people. First I was told it was most likely in the GST system, I explained it had a single stage clutch that disengaged the PTO and main drive, how could anything pull the tractor and spin the PTO - IF the clutch was releasing. After going the third tech on the phone, he agreed it would seem the disc is not being released and or hanging on the splines - however he was unaware of any issue where splines were being stripped. I mentioned I had read information on the web, indicating issues and re-designed disc (not sure if stripping was the reason), still he was unaware of any TSB or issues.

I'll most likely wait till winter to tear is down but my thoughts are IF the disc could be in the early stages of stripping / rolling the splines, perhaps as the input shaft heats / expands the rolled edges of a failing spline may be hanging disc. I can think of no other reason the warming of an engine would cause a clutch to drag. I know many other issues could be at fault for a clutch not releasing all the way but from startup to moderate temps, it basically gets worse with each degree in temp.

I'll post my results as the saga unfolds but again the question remains - were the clutch disc's weak and redesigned and/or is it normal for shuttle shift with loader to rip them out over time? Anyone with similar results please chime in - to date I have talked with at least 10 kubota tech fellows and they have no idea's except "split'r down"...


UPDATE 6/25/12

Tore it down, splined wasted on clutch disc, the remaining components looked brand spankin new - replaced complete with "puck" style disc, seals, etc - I've attached image dunnow if you can see it, BUT for the record the clutch worked GREAT cold but hung as it heated up. Bottom line, clutch had 300 hours on it and it ate the spline, the fellow who had it before has put three clutches in it, I am the new operator so we shall see..

 

[lwarranty]

folks - 45 years in the industry tells me my disc is hanging on the input shaft or i'm missing something obvious. Since i have no pilot bushing - my experience is telling me - tractor starts cold, clutch has .75 inch free play at pedal before release bearing contacts clutch fingers, i can feel the pressure plate releasing about 2.5" of stroke with more to go if needed, no funny noises, everything works great. Start to mow or get the rig warm not hot just warm and come to a stop with the clutch and it creeps, if i hit the brake it will stop the tractor but depending on how warm it gets, the problem gets worse. Cold, i can push clutch in and engage pto, warm i must shuttle into forward or reverse to stop input shaft from spinning, then engage pto. Question is i've heard they can strip splines - is this the beginning symptoms? Could it be rust on the input shaft - the unit is garaged and although i put a lab scope in the bell housing, it looks clean, no oil leakage, dust, debris, etc - looks great. I am getting ready to pull starter and use lab scope if possible to get a look at the clutch splines. Any input would be appreciated - its useable but i'm afraid something may come apart and grenade my world... Thanks fellers!

Update: 6/5/12

remove starter and clutch linkage, retracted release bearing fully and gave a good look with lab scope, splines are clean, no oil or grease, all fingers on pressure plate equal distance from release bearing. Re-assembled and same issue, cold clutch releases fine, pto engages and stops when depressing clutch, no forward or reverse creeping. Get it warm just idling, depressing clutch does not fully release, pto spins when clutch is depressed and shuttle forward or reverse, machine creeps - anybody - idea's?

Update 6/5/12

talked to local kubota dealer - as stated above i have over 45 years experience, so while remaining open minded, i pity some of the folks who must deal with these people. First i was told it was most likely in the gst system, i explained it had a single stage clutch that disengaged the pto and main drive, how could anything pull the tractor and spin the pto - if the clutch was releasing. After going the third tech on the phone, he agreed it would seem the disc is not being released and or hanging on the splines - however he was unaware of any issue where splines were being stripped. I mentioned i had read information on the web, indicating issues and re-designed disc (not sure if stripping was the reason), still he was unaware of any tsb or issues.

I'll most likely wait till winter to tear is down but my thoughts are if the disc could be in the early stages of stripping / rolling the splines, perhaps as the input shaft heats / expands the rolled edges of a failing spline may be hanging disc. I can think of no other reason the warming of an engine would cause a clutch to drag. I know many other issues could be at fault for a clutch not releasing all the way but from startup to moderate temps, it basically gets worse with each degree in temp.

I'll post my results as the saga unfolds but again the question remains - were the clutch disc's weak and redesigned and/or is it normal for shuttle shift with loader to rip them out over time? Anyone with similar results please chime in - to date i have talked with at least 10 kubota tech fellows and they have no idea's except "split'r down"...


Update 6/25/12

tore it down, splined wasted on clutch disc, the remaining components looked brand spankin new - replaced complete with "puck" style disc, seals, etc - i've attached image dunnow if you can see it, but for the record the clutch worked great cold but hung as it heated up. Bottom line, clutch had 300 hours on it and it ate the spline, the fellow who had it before has put three clutches in it, i am the new operator so we shall see..

repaired - see post

 

[Bluegill]

Glad ya got it fixed!

Wounder if the previous owner didn't know how to use a clutch, or just bad parts?

 

[Kytim]

WoW!! 75 hrs per clutch?? (300hrs/4 clutches= 75hrs each) The PO must not have known how to use a clutch or even if there was a pedal for it. ^^^OR^^^ something else is seriously wrong. not likely a faulty part issue because of the interval between them. If it was then the counter man, if a real Kubota dealer would know ( and we would have likely known or heard too if it was widespread issue). Hope you really inspected everything well and you have no further problems. Glad your back going. I think I would document everything just in case for later use, my memory is getting bad I'd never remember. I think I've gotta leak, anyone got a bottle of slime???

 

[lwarranty]

Glad ya got it fixed!

Wounder if the previous owner didn't know how to use a clutch, or just bad parts?

The spline / input shaft was lubed, clean, straight, no issues visible full length of spline.

My guess is PTO or close RPM while operating the FEL. I know some diesel engines are equipped with dual mass flywheels to take some of the "pulse" or "frequency" patterns from the crank as it gets propagated through the drive train, resulting in worn splines, input shafts and trans parts. However since the little rig didn't have one, I'll assume it was operator error. I'll guarantee a few things - this operator isn't gonna screw it up and if it does it again - it'll be on the auction block. Been at this too many years and other than pump timing and compression, I know of no other reason it would be reaming the splines...

For now, it's happy and back together, took me about six hours at wide open throttle with the FEL being a major challenge. Funny - I have an auto repair shop, as soon as I start to work on my own stuff, the phone comes off the hook and the wreckers roll in, long day but good results.

 

[lwarranty]

WoW!! 75 hrs per clutch?? (300hrs/4 clutches= 75hrs each) The PO must not have known how to use a clutch or even if there was a pedal for it. ^^^OR^^^ something else is seriously wrong. not likely a faulty part issue because of the interval between them. If it was then the counter man, if a real Kubota dealer would know ( and we would have likely known or heard too if it was widespread issue). Hope you really inspected everything well and you have no further problems. Glad your back going. I think I would document everything just in case for later use, my memory is getting bad I'd never remember. I think I've gotta leak, anyone got a bottle of slime???

Not 4 clutches in 300 hours, the last clutch only had 300 hours on it with 1024 total on the unit... As for the counterman at Kubota - they frightened the heck out of me. As posted, I went through three service fellers before I finally got one who understood the GST setup and how it applied to my issue. The first two assured me I didn't understand how the GST operated and was most likely where the issue was, and while being as diplomatic as possible, I would ask, if it's a single stage clutch and I press it down, that should release the input shaft to include the PTO - finally, the third fellow on the phone agreed. Really - I deal with folks who get misdiagnosed vehicles on a weekly basis, sometimes with serious financial implications, but these Kubota folks were talking about 4k to 7k I mean REALLY - it's sad... I don't think they were intentionally trying to take me to the cleaners, but I don't expect them to play search and destroy using my wallet... For any Kubota tech's around here, forgive me for the negativity - however "tech" being the keyword!

 

[Kytim]

Well we have some great techs on here but, this is a busy time for them and there input is slim right now. I'd trust Service Dept Vic right to the end of my wallet if necessary. These guys really seem to have a firm grip on the intricacies of Kubota hardware. Since you have been in the repair business for a long time you know from personal experience not all "techs" are built alike!

Sometime, tell us a little about yourself and your business. It's pretty much like family around here.

 

[lwarranty]

Well we have some great techs on here but, this is a busy time for them and there input is slim right now. I'd trust Service Dept Vic right to the end of my wallet if necessary. These guys really seem to have a firm grip on the intricacies of Kubota hardware. Since you have been in the repair business for a long time you know from personal experience not all "techs" are built alike!

Sometime, tell us a little about yourself and your business. It's pretty much like family around here.

To be honest, I was terribly disappointed as I had gotten no response what-so-ever to my issue / post. However I knew in my heart where I needed to go next and posting here was an effort to identify any known "gotcha's" - however again to no avail. Perhaps I wasn't eloquent enough in description, but the point / question was - do they eat splines and sure enough - that's what I found! Now I'm not implying it's normal or bad engineering - I'm about 99% sure it's operator error.

As for me and my business, I started out at 9 years old working at my surrogate grandpa's Texaco station in Detroit in the early 60's and been at it ever since. I owned and operated my own shop from 1973 in Detroit (highway took the Texaco) and now in McDonald, TN. Started working on electronics / ecm's that and somehow migrated to 10 years as Technical Director for Scripps Howard / Knight-Ridder media companies but found myself back in the shop after 911 turned the airports into campgrounds. I am semi-retired now and basically take the jobs the others send down the road, highly specialized in computer control systems and electronics - the tougher the challenge, the better I like it. Found myself fixing some of the newer tractor electronics, bailers, etc - no more three wire engine systems, these new bad boys have control modules / pcm's / central control systems, square wave speed sensors and more. The manuals are the challenge for me, I have Alldata for vehicles but fixing the neighbors rigs, I i.e. have them get a service manual or do some web research. Don't know if that answers the question, but it sums it up and thanks for the family reference - I appreciate the hospitality?!?

 

[Bluegill]

Yep, I also lean toward previous owner operator era. Our 28 year old L3750 is still on it's original clutch.

Welcome to the Orange site. Hopefully it'll pick up more around here.