Hydraulic Top Cylinder / Float / Cylinder Lock Valve

[TheOldHokie]

Well, I read most of the tread and seems In hope I’d find an answer to my little dilemma….

I’ve got a Fit Rite top link and my valve has float a detent. It’s solid for the majority of my use, but it does bleed off over some time. My idea to stop this when I want it to remain at a specific point is to simply slap a 1/4 turn ball valve on one of the lines to the cylinder.

Assuming I match the valve to available pressure, is there anything I can screw up? Seems like it’s as safe as keeping the valve open when the cylinder is at full stroke. Can’t go anywhere…

Thoughts?

That will work fine for locking the cylinder. Heres a link to some ball valves rated for hydraulic pressures.

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Dan

 

[ejb11235]

Float does not cause/affect spool leakage. Some leakage through control valves seems to be normal unless you’re extremely lucky. Over time (with load on it) the length of the cylinder will change, without the control lever being moved.

It’s the check valves that stop leakage from moving through the lines to the cylinder. So the cylinder is effectively locked in place, until you move the control lever and the check valves open.

But check valves and float are mutually exclusive. You can have one or the other, but not both in the same valve section. OR neither. You decide what you want and pay more if you want check valves or float in a valve section.

Just be aware that without check valves your cylinders will likely change in length over time, sometimes at a noticeable rate.

I was just rereading the thread and came across this post. When I first read it a week ago, I got the part about the check valves and float being mutually exclusive. But I missed the part in blue. As I start learning about hydraulics, I noticed that I've tended to ignore the check valves in the diagrams and not think more about why they are there. This post gives me a reason to give that more thought. My new-found interest in check valves lead me to this excellent 25 minute video.

Seems to me that if one wanted float and check valve, you would use a pilot-operated check valve so you could turn the check valve off and on, correct?

 

[Henro]

Seems to me that if one wanted float and check valve, you would use a pilot-operated check valve so you could turn the check valve off and on, correct?

No expert, but I don't think so. Reason is, the pilot operated check valves are only opened when you are moving the cylinder in or out.

When you center the control valve, or put it in float mode, both pilot operated check valves close and the cylinder locks in place. So float in the control valve can not cause the cylinder to move, since it is locked in place by the check valves.

When I bought my control valves, which have pilot operated check valves built in, there was the option for float, or check valves, but not both. Same holds true if you had a pilot operated check valve block mounted on your cylinder. Float in the control valve would not function, since the check valves would prevent cylinder movement, even when the control valve was put in float mode.

Now IF you somehow had a method of opening the pilot operated check valves independent of the control valve, or IF you had a control valve that somehow was able to open the pilot operated check valves when you put it in float mode, what you are thinking is true. But I don't that something like that is commonly available...

 

[ejb11235]

No expert, but I don't think so. Reason is, the pilot operated check valves are only opened when you are moving the cylinder in or out.

When you center the control valve, or put it in float mode, both pilot operated check valves close and the cylinder locks in place. So float in the control valve can not cause the cylinder to move, since it is locked in place by the check valves.

When I bought my control valves, which have pilot operated check valves built in, there was the option for float, or check valves, but not both. Same holds true if you had a pilot operated check valve block mounted on your cylinder. Float in the control valve would not function, since the check valves would prevent cylinder movement, even when the control valve was put in float mode.

Now IF you somehow had a method of opening the pilot operated check valves independent of the control valve, or IF you had a control valve that somehow was able to open the pilot operated check valves when you put it in float mode, what you are thinking is true. But I don't that something like that is commonly available...

I wasn't clear ... I implied but did not state that my suggestion included adding an additional control valve that is used to enable and disable the pilot check valve. So we are on the same page, for the most part. Now of course the coolest thing would be if the main valve also controlled the check valve's pilot circuit, so that when you put "it" into float mode, it would automatically open the pilot valve.

Keep in mind that my thinking at this point is on a circuit where you're adding a pilot check valve, not where there is one already that's plumbed up to operate in a specific way. So more like, if you had a system that had float mode and you wanted to put in a check valve to eliminate sag, how would you do it.

 

[Henro]

I wasn't clear ... I implied but did not state that my suggestion included adding an additional control valve that is used to enable and disable the pilot check valve. So we are on the same page, for the most part. Now of course the coolest thing would be if the main valve also controlled the check valve's pilot circuit, so that when you put "it" into float mode, it would automatically open the pilot valve.

I kinda got that from your post. BUT how would one do that?

Maybe pilot operated check valve blocks are out there that include this functionality. If so, your thinking is right on...price for such an animal might be out of the ball park though. No clue really.

 

[ejb11235]

I kinda got that from your post. BUT how would one do that?

Maybe pilot operated check valve blocks are out there that include this functionality. If so, your thinking is right on...price for such an animal might be out of the ball park though. No clue really.

Hmmm, I think I see your point. The how is kind of a big deal isn't it?

Gear-shifting time ... I'll need to learn more about how an actual float-capable valve is set up and plumbed.

Do you have a link for the valve you used? I could take a look at some point how it's set up for float (not the check-valve version). This would be good for me to learn more about how this all works.

--eric

 

[Henro]

Hmmm, I think I see your point. The how is kind of a big deal isn't it?

Gear-shifting time ... I'll need to learn more about how an actual float-capable valve is set up and plumbed.

Do you have a link for the valve you used? I could take a look at some point how it's set up for float (not the check-valve version). This would be good for me to learn more about how this all works.

--eric

I don't have a link handy as it was done about 18 years ago. BUT I do know the control valves were made by Prince, and apparently still available, because Thisoldhokie mentioned them in a different thread a while back, after not being sure what I was referring to, and researching it.

If I find that thread I will link it here.

A float capable valve is plumbed the same as a normal valve, since the float function occurs inside the valve body. Same with a valve that has built in POC valves.

 

[ejb11235]

I don't have a link handy as it was done about 18 years ago. BUT I do know the control valves were made by Prince, and apparently still available, because Thisoldhokie mentioned them in a different thread a while back, after not being sure what I was referring to, and researching it.

If I find that thread I will link it here.

A float capable valve is plumbed the same as a normal valve, since the float function occurs inside the valve body. Same with a valve that has built in POC valves.

Ah. Yes, they are easy to find. Here's a link to a 1 Spool 8 GPM Prince MB11G5C1 DA Float Valve

I'll need to think about this later. If I come up with anything, I'll post it.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Well, I read most of the tread and seems In hope I’d find an answer to my little dilemma….

I’ve got a Fit Rite top link and my valve has float a detent. It’s solid for the majority of my use, but it does bleed off over some time. My idea to stop this when I want it to remain at a specific point is to simply slap a 1/4 turn ball valve on one of the lines to the cylinder.

Assuming I match the valve to available pressure, is there anything I can screw up? Seems like it’s as safe as keeping the valve open when the cylinder is at full stroke. Can’t go anywhere…

Thoughts?

Something like this.

 

[ejb11235]

Something like this.

Now, why would you want to have something clean and simple when I'm trying to come up with something complicated and expensive?

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Now, why would you want to have something clean and simple when I'm trying to come up with something complicated and expensive?

You can go electric if you feel the need to spend more $$$ and have the room.

 

[ejb11235]

You can go electric if you feel the need to spend more $$$ and have the room.

The actual question that led me to that video on youtube was ... "I wonder if there's an electrically operated check valve". I have to admit that I like the idea of electrically operated valves to reduce the amount of plumbing involved. What I don't know is their reliability compared to pure hydraulics.

 

[Chad D.]

The actual question that led me to that video on youtube was ... "I wonder if there's an electrically operated check valve". I have to admit that I like the idea of electrically operated valves to reduce the amount of plumbing involved. What I don't know is their reliability compared to pure hydraulics.

Seems that the 1/4 turn ball valve and the electrically actuated solenoid valve that Brian posted take the same amount of plumbing. One takes wiring and a switch, as well. I’m doing the manual valve route for the few times I care about the top link not budging a hair.

 

[ejb11235]

Seems that the 1/4 turn ball valve and the electrically actuated solenoid valve that Brian posted take the same amount of plumbing. One takes wiring and a switch, as well. I’m doing the manual valve route for the few times I care about the top link not budging a hair.

Oh yeah, as you should. This is more of a hypothetical discussion for me, whereas you have an actual problem to solve.

I'm starting to think about hydraulic top and tilt, especially around where hydraulics are going to go on my little BX23S. So I tend to ask myself if I can use electrics in the cockpit for a cleaner install there and keep the hydraulics closer to the cylinders and existing plumbing.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Oh yeah, as you should. This is more of a hypothetical discussion for me, whereas you have an actual problem to solve.

I'm starting to think about hydraulic top and tilt, especially around where hydraulics are going to go on my little BX23S. So I tend to ask myself if I can use electrics in the cockpit for a cleaner install there and keep the hydraulics closer to the cylinders and existing plumbing.

The problem with electric valves is you are not going to have any "real" feathering abilities or any float feature capabilities. Electric valves work, a lot of people go that route, but a good manual valve is superior for operator input as well as valve options IMO.

If you go with some Bucher brand valves, you can forget about the need for any of the DPOCV scenarios, you simply won't need them. Not a single known issue in over 12 years of selling them.

 

[ejb11235]

The problem with electric valves is you are not going to have any "real" feathering abilities or any float feature capabilities. Electric valves work, a lot of people go that route, but a good manual valve is superior for operator input as well as valve options IMO.

If you go with some Bucher brand valves, you can forget about the need for any of the DPOCV scenarios, you simply won't need them. Not a single known issue in over 12 years of selling them.

Good point about electric valves, although in the context of this thread I was thinking about on/off scenarios that don't require feathering. Beautiful cylinders, btw.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Good point about electric valves, although in the context of this thread I was thinking about on/off scenarios that don't require feathering. Beautiful cylinders, btw.

If you want to get the highest capability from your T&T set, good manual valves with the float feature are the only way to go on these tractors IMO.

 

[TheOldHokie]

If you go with some Bucher brand valves, you can forget about the need for any of the DPOCV scenarios, you simply won't need them. Not a single known issue in over 12 years of selling them.

And they are not expensive.

Dan

 

[Chanceywd]

And they are not expensive.

Dan

Is this one of those Bucher valves I bought from Summitt for my project? It has a B molded in there.

Bill

 

[MtnViewRanch]

No, it does not look like any Bucher valve I have seen.

What do your levers look like? That is sure sign. All of the Bucher levers are very similar looking no matter what size valve you have.