He said…she said

[Henro]

I just read an article where an Air Force General was found guilty of something like sexual assault, because the woman said that he forced her into certain position and kissed her. This is a more or less a summary of what I think I read.

Anyway I think these kind of things are a real negative and I don’t support them. But I just wonder, if it’s a "he said she said thing,” how can anybody be found guilty of anything without extra proof?

I have two daughters so I am sympathetic. But I still don’t understand how things seem to go in the favor of one sex rather than the other when it is all what one person says vs the other. Only saying this from what I have been told. No personal experience.

Please help me to understand this because I can’t on my own.

Again, I have two daughters...so I am not against anything...just trying to understand the situation...actually I think the woman in question could be honest, but without proof, how can anything be concluded?

I guess in the end, I just do not want to be convicted of anything without concrete proof. So I am trying to understand the big picture. Even if this kind of situation will never apply to me personally. Yes, without question I am sure of that...

 

[Biker1mike]

www.military.com " The general also declined to testify in his own defense during days of court martial hearings this week that included testimony from the victim and the general's brother. "

Not he said she said. Since he refused to testify it is just she said. The general also refused a jury trial in favor of a single military judge.

The article in military.com has more information than the short national news flashes.

clipped by mike

 

[skeets]

Well being a union steward for more years than I care to remember. A female has you by the short hairs, she has a bad day and you say gee your hair is really nice did you just get it done,,, And bam you are introuble when she goes to te HR lady and says he was making remarks about my hair boohoo. And you are the one onthe carpet, and trust me it is one hell of a case to defend. Sometimes its just best to take the lumps and move forward.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Seems the Law ALWAYS favours the woman,REGARDLESS of who started 'it'..
Neighbours get into a VERBAL 'fight' NOT physical.., he's hauled away barefoot( in winter), in cuffs, off to copshop. She gets a PERMANENT restraining order , he can't get within 1000' of HIS house,that HE pays 100% of the bills( she's never worked). Been 2 1/2 YEARS since this happened.

So much for 'equal rights under the law'...

 

[Biker1mike]

...W she has a bad day and you say gee your hair is really nice did you just get it done,,, And bam you are introuble ...

Would you say the same thing to male co-worker ? If you wouldn't compliment a guy's haircut then the statement to the women is indeed based on sex.
It is a fine line and if in doubt think twice and keep your mouth shut.

Opposite case: A young women who always wore very short skirts wanted to join the area that I was the top tech for. She was a good fit for the job. I told her that she really should switch to jeans or dress pants to do this type of work. I got a fast lecture on this from her and then from HR. Third day on the job we had to sample a tank truck. I pointed to the ladder and said. 'you first, I'll follow with the tools." It took her all of a split second to realize why wearing a skirt may not have been a good choice. The next day she contacted HR to clear the record and bought the first round of beers after work.

 

[skeets]

I guess you do have a point unless the long hair guy got a hair cut. The point I was attempting to allude to was that as a male, anything you say or do no mater how innocent may be miss construed as a sexual remark or action, like holding open a door for a woman. And good on her for comming to the rash realization, short skirts and ladders are not a good combo

 

[Lil Foot]

I worked for a major aerospace concern before sexual harassment was a hot topic. There was a pretty, mid 20s something girl in another area across the plant who always dressed like a high-end hooker. Clothes, hair, makeup, and jewelry all to the max, everyday.
She was some kind of a parts expeditor. (parts delivery to various production lines)

She was asked to tone it down more than once, but nobody was really al that upset with her, except maybe the other women.

When sexual harassment became the trendy subject, she filed an internal complaint that "guys were looking at her and making comments".
Everyone in the plant had to take sensitivity training, many guys got termination warnings, and she was asked to tone it down again.

This infuriated her, so she filed a federal sexual harassment claim against the company for implying that she was not dressing correctly. (even though she was in obvious violation of the company dress code)
She won.

The company told everyone to not look at her, or speak to her in any capacity except work related matters.
This left her with virtually none of the attention she craved, so she filed another federal complaint claiming that she was being ostracized in retribution for filing the first complaint.
She won.

The company decided to give her a raise, promote her, give her her own office, make up a title for her, and give her a BS job that had no real purpose or duties.

After a couple years, she landed a sugar daddy & quit.

I always maintained a low profile around women at work, I liked my job and wanted to keep it.

 

[sheepfarmer]

I just read an article where an Air Force General was found guilty of something like sexual assault, because the woman said that he forced her into certain position and kissed her. This is a more or less a summary of what I think I read.

Anyway I think these kind of things are a real negative and I don’t support them. But I just wonder, if it’s a "he said she said thing,” how can anybody be found guilty of anything without extra proof?

I have two daughters so I am sympathetic. But I still don’t understand how things seem to go in the favor of one sex rather than the other when it is all what one person says vs the other. Only saying this from what I have been told. No personal experience.

Please help me to understand this because I can’t on my own.

Again, I have two daughters...so I am not against anything...just trying to understand the situation...actually I think the woman in question could be honest, but without proof, how can anything be concluded?

I guess in the end, I just do not want to be convicted of anything without concrete proof. So I am trying to understand the big picture. Even if this kind of situation will never apply to me personally. Yes, without question I am sure of that...

In most cases in the past the he said she said defense was applied, and the decisions came down to drop the complaint in favor of the males. In the university environment the male fraternity boys were protected, and the female students were told they must have done or said something to lead them on. That was the way it was. The university protected its reputation at all costs.

The same with faculty. I was in my lab with narrow aisles and the department chair grabbed me around the shoulders and said "You know what you can do if you want the space to put that new piece of equipment?" I laughed like he was making a joke and yanked myself free, and said "I'll do field biology first". My $200,000 piece of equipment sat on the loading dock for 6 months before he "found" a room I could use that was there all the time. Untenured, I went to see an attorney to find out what I could do to protect myself. Was told without proof, nothing. He said she said. I spent the next 5 years with a tape recorder in my lab coat pocket. He never touched me again, but there were plenty of consequences.

He tried to pick up a female grad student, and assaulted another untenured faculty member who wouldn't file a complaint because he served on the NIH study section that would be reviewing her grants for years to come. Finally he made the mistake of grabbing a secretary's breast while she was working. She filed a complaint with her union, but the university did nothing because it looked like he was moving to another school. And it could be their problem.

It isn't totally he said she said when more than one person is told about it immediately, or more than one person reports the problem. However if the assaulter has a lot of power, as above, 3 out of 4 infractions go unreported. Or if they are reported there are no consequences. Just review national political figures.

 

[Daren Todd]

I worked for a major aerospace concern before sexual harassment was a hot topic. There was a pretty, mid 20s something girl in another area across the plant who always dressed like a high-end hooker. Clothes, hair, makeup, and jewelry all to the max, everyday.
She was some kind of a parts expeditor. (parts delivery to various production lines)

She was asked to tone it down more than once, but nobody was really al that upset with her, except maybe the other women.

When sexual harassment became the trendy subject, she filed an internal complaint that "guys were looking at her and making comments".
Everyone in the plant had to take sensitivity training, many guys got termination warnings, and she was asked to tone it down again.

This infuriated her, so she filed a federal sexual harassment claim against the company for implying that she was not dressing correctly. (even though she was in obvious violation of the company dress code)
She won.

The company told everyone to not look at her, or speak to her in any capacity except work related matters.
This left her with virtually none of the attention she craved, so she filed another federal complaint claiming that she was being ostracized in retribution for filing the first complaint.
She won.

The company decided to give her a raise, promote her, give her her own office, make up a title for her, and give her a BS job that had no real purpose or duties.

After a couple years, she landed a sugar daddy & quit.

I always maintained a low profile around women at work, I liked my job and wanted to keep it.

I'm friendly and polite, but don't treat a women any different then a man.

They have to follow the "No jewelry" rule out in the shop. As well as the dress code. Supplied work uniform, steel toed boots, safety glasses, and gloves.

Long hair needs to be contained since there is spinning machinery, shafts ect.....

It boils down to safety and hazard assessment.

Conversations that aren't about work are limited to neutral topics such as family, food, entertainment, ect.....

 

[DustyRusty]

I worked for a major aerospace concern before sexual harassment was a hot topic. There was a pretty, mid 20s something girl in another area across the plant who always dressed like a high-end hooker. Clothes, hair, makeup, and jewelry all to the max, everyday.
She was some kind of a parts expeditor. (parts delivery to various production lines)

She was asked to tone it down more than once, but nobody was really al that upset with her, except maybe the other women.

When sexual harassment became the trendy subject, she filed an internal complaint that "guys were looking at her and making comments".
Everyone in the plant had to take sensitivity training, many guys got termination warnings, and she was asked to tone it down again.

This infuriated her, so she filed a federal sexual harassment claim against the company for implying that she was not dressing correctly. (even though she was in obvious violation of the company dress code)
She won.

The company told everyone to not look at her, or speak to her in any capacity except work related matters.
This left her with virtually none of the attention she craved, so she filed another federal complaint claiming that she was being ostracized in retribution for filing the first complaint.
She won.

The company decided to give her a raise, promote her, give her her own office, make up a title for her, and give her a BS job that had no real purpose or duties.

After a couple years, she landed a sugar daddy & quit.

I always maintained a low profile around women at work, I liked my job and wanted to keep it.

I resent you calling me a "sugar daddy"!!!

 

[Biker1mike]

I had the honor of being the eldest son of a widow in the 70's and saw a lot of harassment. A plumber did work at the house and I over heard him tell my mother that if she did not have enough money on hand they could work out another arrangement. She knew exactly what he meant. She told him that she would go get her purse and I quote, "where I keep my checkbook and a ladies 32."
After that we had several long talks about the road blocks and harassment she faced as a single woman trying to raise a family. She broke a lot of barriers along the way.
I think it made me a better man when it came to raising daughters and in the work place.

I believe the line between good friends and just co-workers tends to be flexible. The key is to know where the line is and never ever cross it.

 

[Magicman]

Not questioning guilt nor innocence, but wondering how a 'crime' that apparently happened after hours or off base was a military/court martial issue? I maybe could see it if he was wearing a uniform or on duty??

 

[Biker1mike]

Not questioning guilt nor innocence, but wondering how a 'crime' that apparently happened after hours or off base was a military/court martial issue? I maybe could see it if he was wearing a uniform or on duty??

As a soldier you may have a normal work day but you are Navy, Army, etc. 24/7/365.
You represent your uniform, service and country at all times.

 

[Magicman]

I served the Army from 1961-1966, but there is stuff that I have forgotten.

 

[Henro]

I see the conviction is going to cost that general $50K over the next five months from his wages...hope it was worth it if he was actually guilty!

The positive is that apparently there is no financial incentive for the person who filed the charges...so the incentive on their part might just be...well...not sure what to call it....my weakness, I am sure there is a correct term.

edit: I think the term might be justification.

 

[Dieseldonato]

I find it best to keep it professional with any woman at work. Save for a few I've know for a while. More then one has been fired over something said or a comment misconstrued. Makes me miss road work some days. We have a zero tolerance policy at work, so you'll be dismissed with prejudice. Always in the favor of the one reporting the abuse.