John Deere Right to repair project

[JCGenesis]

Hi,

I'm new here so sorry if this isn't allowed.

I am currently studying in my final year at Bournemouth University. My final year project aims to explore the ways that farmers are impacted by repair restrictions and hopefully develop some kind of solution to this problem. To do this we need some questionnaire responses and I was hoping I could find some people willing to to complete the questionnaire here. I have left the link to the questionnaire below, any responses would be very appreciated, even if you do not own a John Deere responses are very useful.

Tractor Hacking for Right to Repair

docs.google.com

Thanks!

 

[rScotty]

Hi,

I'm new here so sorry if this isn't allowed.

I am currently studying in my final year at Bournemouth University. My final year project aims to explore the ways that farmers are impacted by repair restrictions and hopefully develop some kind of solution to this problem. To do this we need some questionnaire responses and I was hoping I could find some people willing to to complete the questionnaire here. I have left the link to the questionnaire below, any responses would be very appreciated, even if you do not own a John Deere responses are very useful.

Tractor Hacking for Right to Repair

docs.google.com

Thanks!

I have two JDs, but the repair problem goes beyond any particular brand. What I would like is a program so that my laptop can interface with the computer on my tractor. At least for full diagnostics, and also for some operating parameter modifications. Technically, this should be fairly simple.

For example. When the "black box" on my JD went bad a couple of years ago I was unable to test it to see if the problem was indeed a defective computer. JD has a software tool to test my onboard computer, but it is not available to me. When their tests showed it was indeed the computer that needed replacing, they had to come out to install the new one and also charged to configure it to my tractor.

John Deere's repair policy did not allow for the owner to do the repair work. Instead, their involvement turned a potential one hour job into a complicated one. Owner diagnosis was impossible without interface software, so the dealer was required. The work itself involved 4 small bolts, one electrical connector, and inputting the serial number of the tractor. Plus a trip by their mobile repair truck to our place. The work itself was simple, it took less than an hour. I was there the whole time.

JD's repair policy resulted in expanding the changing of this $1200 part into a series of visits costing over $3000 and taking up most of a week. They charged for their time; I wasted mine.

I will give them this: The tractor does work well. It is tremendously strong, comfortable, reliable, and with only very infrequent repairs needed. The price for this repair was too high, but not outrageously so. What I objected to was that they had made it impossible for me to do the very simple diagnosis and replacement. This job is little more complex than changing a fuse. Hiring their help should be an option, not a requirement.
thank you,
rScotty

 

[TheOldHokie]

I have two JDs, but the repair problem goes beyond any particular brand. What I would like is a program so that my laptop can interface with the computer on my tractor. At least for full diagnostics, and also for some operating parameter modifications. Technically, this should be fairly simple.

For example. When the "black box" on my JD went bad a couple of years ago I was unable to test it to see if the problem was indeed a defective computer. JD has a software tool to test my onboard computer, but it is not available to me. When their tests showed it was indeed the computer that needed replacing, they had to come out to install the new one and also charged to configure it to my tractor.

John Deere's repair policy did not allow for the owner to do the repair work. Instead, their involvement turned a potential one hour job into a complicated one. Owner diagnosis was impossible without interface software, so the dealer was required. The work itself involved 4 small bolts, one electrical connector, and inputting the serial number of the tractor. Plus a trip by their mobile repair truck to our place. The work itself was simple, it took less than an hour. I was there the whole time.

JD's repair policy resulted in expanding the changing of this $1200 part into a series of visits costing over $3000 and taking up most of a week. They charged for their time; I wasted mine.

I will give them this: The tractor does work well. It is tremendously strong, comfortable, reliable, and with only very infrequent repairs needed. The price for this repair was too high, but not outrageously so. What I objected to was that they had made it impossible for me to do the very simple diagnosis and replacement. This job is little more complex than changing a fuse. Hiring their help should be an option, not a requirement.
thank you,
rScotty

Welcome to the world of modern car ownership. Want to guess what that same repair would cost ion my wife's BMW?

Dan

 

[Daren Todd]

I have two JDs, but the repair problem goes beyond any particular brand. What I would like is a program so that my laptop can interface with the computer on my tractor. At least for full diagnostics, and also for some operating parameter modifications. Technically, this should be fairly simple.

For example. When the "black box" on my JD went bad a couple of years ago I was unable to test it to see if the problem was indeed a defective computer. JD has a software tool to test my onboard computer, but it is not available to me. When their tests showed it was indeed the computer that needed replacing, they had to come out to install the new one and also charged to configure it to my tractor.

John Deere's repair policy did not allow for the owner to do the repair work. Instead, their involvement turned a potential one hour job into a complicated one. Owner diagnosis was impossible without interface software, so the dealer was required. The work itself involved 4 small bolts, one electrical connector, and inputting the serial number of the tractor. Plus a trip by their mobile repair truck to our place. The work itself was simple, it took less than an hour. I was there the whole time.

JD's repair policy resulted in expanding the changing of this $1200 part into a series of visits costing over $3000 and taking up most of a week. They charged for their time; I wasted mine.

I will give them this: The tractor does work well. It is tremendously strong, comfortable, reliable, and with only very infrequent repairs needed. The price for this repair was too high, but not outrageously so. What I objected to was that they had made it impossible for me to do the very simple diagnosis and replacement. This job is little more complex than changing a fuse. Hiring their help should be an option, not a requirement.
thank you,
rScotty

You can actually get jd's software. It's the annual $1800 licensing fee that gets you.

JD has a little diagnosing box that you can get. Plugs into the same port that the techs computer plugs into. Runs around $500.00 (10 years ago).

You can read codes, engine hours, real time oil pressure, temperature, and a few other things.

Part number is RE555553.

Not sure if the jumper harness comes with it or if you have to buy it separately. Probably separately. I checked the harness and couldn't find a part number.

I actually use that box more then the computer. If you got the code, you can Google it and get a pretty close idea where to look.

Supposedly this box will read engine codes for other makes and models if they have the same deutz connecter.

I keep meaning to meter out the plug on some of my Cummins and deutz engines to see if the connectors supply power, signal, etc to the same pins.

Boss might be a little upset if I burn up the box just hooking it to another connector

The really handy part about the computer though is the real time monitoring of the sensors. So you can do a cold read on the sensors if you have a temperature sensor that you think is wonky and compare readings across the board. If one is reading 30 degrees higher at room temperature, then you found your culprit.

 

[Dieseldonato]

You can actually get jd's software. It's the annual $1800 licensing fee that gets you.

JD has a little diagnosing box that you can get. Plugs into the same port that the techs computer plugs into. Runs around $500.00 (10 years ago).

You can read codes, engine hours, real time oil pressure, temperature, and a few other things.

Part number is RE555553.

Not sure if the jumper harness comes with it or if you have to buy it separately. Probably separately. I checked the harness and couldn't find a part number.

I actually use that box more then the computer. If you got the code, you can Google it and get a pretty close idea where to look.

Supposedly this box will read engine codes for other makes and models if they have the same deutz connecter.

I keep meaning to meter out the plug on some of my Cummins and deutz engines to see if the connectors supply power, signal, etc to the same pins.

Boss might be a little upset if I burn up the box just hooking it to another connector

The really handy part about the computer though is the real time monitoring of the sensors. So you can do a cold read on the sensors if you have a temperature sensor that you think is wonky and compare readings across the board. If one is reading 30 degrees higher at room temperature, then you found your culprit. View attachment 76996

That's just a panel view and not a real code scanner. John deere went full on cloud based years ago. It was quite a challenge when you were in areas that didn't have internet coverage.

The programming of the ecm was also more then just the tractor serial number. The configuration files include but are limited to injector trim codes, fueling maps, power curves, emissions parameters ect. The equipment needs programming to even work.

Although I highly disagree with the practice it's been common place for some time now. They typically use epa regulations to stay out of trouble as nearly every thing is covered under tier 4 emissions, and because of that a certified technician is technically the only one that is certified to work on the system. Every time the tech logs into their computer it is recorded and deere/ epa can access these records ro see what has been done. It's mostly a liability thing.

 

[Daren Todd]

That's just a panel view and not a real code scanner. John deere went full on cloud based years ago. It was quite a challenge when you were in areas that didn't have internet coverage.

The programming of the ecm was also more then just the tractor serial number. The configuration files include but are limited to injector trim codes, fueling maps, power curves, emissions parameters ect. The equipment needs programming to even work.

Although I highly disagree with the practice it's been common place for some time now. They typically use epa regulations to stay out of trouble as nearly every thing is covered under tier 4 emissions, and because of that a certified technician is technically the only one that is certified to work on the system. Every time the tech logs into their computer it is recorded and deere/ epa can access these records ro see what has been done. It's mostly a liability thing.

I didn't say it was a scanner. I said you can use it to read codes. Which will get you in the ball park. Plus you can see what the engine temp, oil pressure and a few other odds and ends.

If you don't have the ability to find out what code it's throwing on a display on the unit. Then that little box is handy as the Dickens.

And 90% of the time it's just a sensor giving grief. Which the end user can fix. Since the code will self reset once the issue is fixed a sensor swap is all that's needed most of the time.

The exception is emission based where it requires a serial number, part number, ect.....

As far as deeres cloud based software. You can have access to it for a measly $1800 a year. Plus the class.

Even with it being cloud based, you still need a substantial file download on the computer, and periodic updates.

There is aftermarket software out there that is available if you want to pay for it. And it's pricy $$$$. Plus a yearly licensing fee as well. I've actually had a chance to compare the aftermarket software with Deere side by side in a classroom setting.

You can use it to replace an injector. Reprogram an ecm. Reset/ replace your DEF sensors, and will handle the particulate filter swap/ after market/ or hae been cleaned options. Plus real time monitoring of sensors.

There were two issues we discovered with the aftermarket software.

The first was the code definition for what we triggered. The definition on the aftermarket software was wrong and would have sent you looking down the wrong rabbit hole.

The second issue is that it doesnt communicate changes to the dealer network. So if you install a new injector on a tier 4 engine and then the ecm tanks out. Once the dealer flashes a new ECM it's gonna have the previous injector listed for x cylinder. Not the current one in there. which will cause you a decent sized migraine.

you and I are probably on the same page with this. Just approaching it from different ends of the book.

For basic repairs, you just need to know what the code is

One thing I didn't see as an option for the OP which I've done on multiple occasions. Get an ECM flashed and then sent to me, instead of having a tech come out and do it in the field.

 

[Dieseldonato]

I didn't say it was a scanner. I said you can use it to read codes. Which will get you in the ball park. Plus you can see what the engine temp, oil pressure and a few other odds and ends.

If you don't have the ability to find out what code it's throwing on a display on the unit. Then that little box is handy as the Dickens.

And 90% of the time it's just a sensor giving grief. Which the end user can fix. Since the code will self reset once the issue is fixed a sensor swap is all that's needed most of the time.

The exception is emission based where it requires a serial number, part number, ect.....

As far as deeres cloud based software. You can have access to it for a measly $1800 a year. Plus the class.

Even with it being cloud based, you still need a substantial file download on the computer, and periodic updates.

There is aftermarket software out there that is available if you want to pay for it. And it's pricy $$$$. Plus a yearly licensing fee as well. I've actually had a chance to compare the aftermarket software with Deere side by side in a classroom setting.

You can use it to replace an injector. Reprogram an ecm. Reset/ replace your DEF sensors, and will handle the particulate filter swap/ after market/ or hae been cleaned options. Plus real time monitoring of sensors.

There were two issues we discovered with the aftermarket software.

The first was the code definition for what we triggered. The definition on the aftermarket software was wrong and would have sent you looking down the wrong rabbit hole.

The second issue is that it doesnt communicate changes to the dealer network. So if you install a new injector on a tier 4 engine and then the ecm tanks out. Once the dealer flashes a new ECM it's gonna have the previous injector listed for x cylinder. Not the current one in there. which will cause you a decent sized migraine.

you and I are probably on the same page with this. Just approaching it from different ends of the book.

For basic repairs, you just need to know what the code is

One thing I didn't see as an option for the OP which I've done on multiple occasions. Get an ECM flashed and then sent to me, instead of having a tech come out and do it in the field.

Haven't ever played with the aftermarket tech for deere.
But yes I agree the panel view is better then nothing. Very frustrating either way to have your hands tied. Largly the reason the last company I worked for started getting away from deere. Too many issues and too much down time. Even me being trained, without the laptop I was little better then the next guy. Heck even cat let's touch view codes through the display screen.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

re:
So if you install a new injector on a tier 4 engine and then the ecm tanks out. Once the dealer flashes a new ECM it's gonna have the previous injector listed for x cylinder. Not the current one in there. which will cause you a decent sized migraine.


Hmm...are you saying that each injector has it's own 'calibration data' ? So, no 2 injectors are the same ?

 

[TheOldHokie]

re:
So if you install a new injector on a tier 4 engine and then the ecm tanks out. Once the dealer flashes a new ECM it's gonna have the previous injector listed for x cylinder. Not the current one in there. which will cause you a decent sized migraine.


Hmm...are you saying that each injector has it's own 'calibration data' ? So, no 2 injectors are the same ?

No two cylinders are the same and the injector is calibrated to match the cylinder. Reflash the ECM and that calibration is lost.

Dan

 

[Daren Todd]

Haven't ever played with the aftermarket tech for deere.
But yes I agree the panel view is better then nothing. Very frustrating either way to have your hands tied. Largly the reason the last company I worked for started getting away from deere. Too many issues and too much down time. Even me being trained, without the laptop I was little better then the next guy. Heck even cat let's touch view codes through the display screen.

We're actually going back to deere from the rumor I heard recently.

They switched our equipment to Cummins a few years back. That's been a nightmare on the service end of things.

More service calls over there chintzy cheap a$$ fuel primers. Injection pump keys, and most recently lack of available bolt on parts. One $70,000 unit has been down for three months due to no starters being available for it in the world. Starter had a blown armature and couldn't be rewound. Cummins couldn't give me an estimate for when it would be available. Wouldn't put me on a list either

Armature service has three on order for me and should be in sometime in april.

I deal mainly with engine driven water pumps. So no speed controls, transmission, shift issues, or the other stuff that you get with loaders, track hoes, or any other heavy equipment. Just engines.

So I want easy to work on and reliability. I got enough issues chasing after idiot hands doing foolish stuff

Each brand engine has their quirks and common issues.

I know this is a Kubota site, but Deere, Cat, and Doosan got it pretty well figured out on the engine side of things.

Honestly haven't messed with any Kubota tier 4 yet.

Interim tier 4, Deere had some learning curves. But final tier 4, they got the bugs worked out.

Deutz was a little rough once they switched from air cooled to water cooled tier 4. But they got it pretty well figured out as well. Only issue with Deutz is they are DEF sluts.

 

[Daren Todd]

re:
So if you install a new injector on a tier 4 engine and then the ecm tanks out. Once the dealer flashes a new ECM it's gonna have the previous injector listed for x cylinder. Not the current one in there. which will cause you a decent sized migraine.


Hmm...are you saying that each injector has it's own 'calibration data' ? So, no 2 injectors are the same ?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Any injector off the shelf is pretty close. But in order for the engine to run correctly the ECM needs to know exactly how long to hold that injector open to achieve the same ratio on each cylinder. That's where the calibration come in.

It's how these tier 4 diesels meet the emissions requirements.

 

[Dieseldonato]

We're actually going back to deere from the rumor I heard recently.

They switched our equipment to Cummins a few years back. That's been a nightmare on the service end of things.

More service calls over there chintzy cheap a$$ fuel primers. Injection pump keys, and most recently lack of available bolt on parts. One $70,000 unit has been down for three months due to no starters being available for it in the world. Starter had a blown armature and couldn't be rewound. Cummins couldn't give me an estimate for when it would be available. Wouldn't put me on a list either

Armature service has three on order for me and should be in sometime in april.

I deal mainly with engine driven water pumps. So no speed controls, transmission, shift issues, or the other stuff that you get with loaders, track hoes, or any other heavy equipment. Just engines.

So I want easy to work on and reliability. I got enough issues chasing after idiot hands doing foolish stuff

Each brand engine has their quirks and common issues.

I know this is a Kubota site, but Deere, Cat, and Doosan got it pretty well figured out on the engine side of things.

Honestly haven't messed with any Kubota tier 4 yet.

Interim tier 4, Deere had some learning curves. But final tier 4, they got the bugs worked out.

Deutz was a little rough once they switched from air cooled to water cooled tier 4. But they got it pretty well figured out as well. Only issue with Deutz is they are DEF sluts.

Yeah I was Industrial diesel. Engines were my main thing, but had to work on any equipment that had an engine in it that we were dealers for. Volvo, Scania, Deere, Perkins, Isuzu, Kubota, yanmar and a few others. My main focus was Volvo, Scania, Isuzu, and yanmar. Had another tech that dealt with the others and an old farm tractor mechanic that was real good with the Perkins and older deere engines. Started in the stripins working in cats, and Cummins. You know same story as any other diesel mechanic on the road. It4 really was a pain, but most t4 final engines had the bugs worked out.

 

[Dieseldonato]

re:
So if you install a new injector on a tier 4 engine and then the ecm tanks out. Once the dealer flashes a new ECM it's gonna have the previous injector listed for x cylinder. Not the current one in there. which will cause you a decent sized migraine.


Hmm...are you saying that each injector has it's own 'calibration data' ? So, no 2 injectors are the same ?

Yes correct, most engines can "learn" how to fuel with that injector properly, but it take a long time and the process is basically to compensate for wear not really to learn a new injector that wasn't programed. Been like that long before tier 4 engines. It just got more serious with tier 4 engines and the tight emissions standards they had to meet.

 

[Nicksacco]

Hi JCGenesis,

Your timing is good. I had posted some discussions here and got very interesting answers from members.
kindly see:

Deere - Right to Repair - Class Action Lawsuit

Hi All- This video came up and I thought ya'll might be interested in seeing the actual lawsuit details. This fellow goes thru the entire document, so it's not exactly riveting, but still interesting.

www.orangetractortalks.com

Farmer Revolt? - Right to Repair & JD

Hi All- A while ago we discussed the right to repair question and there was great discussion. Last night I came across this video from Bloomberg on the topic and although I think the video is typical of the "magazine style" reporting, it did illustrate the ongoing and frustration and legal...

www.orangetractortalks.com

If you don't mind, tell us about yourself and what brought you to this topic. What sort of experience do you have with tractors and machinery that is being very computerized for example?

 

[GreensvilleJay]

re: No two cylinders are the same and the injector is calibrated to match the cylinder. Reflash the ECM and that calibration is lost.
and
That's exactly what I'm saying. Any injector off the shelf is pretty close. But in order for the engine to run correctly the ECM needs to know exactly how long to hold that injector open to achieve the same ratio on each cylinder. That's where the calibration come in.


so the ECM 'learns' the new injector,updates and then engine runs fine after a 'while', like a car's computer after you reset the OBDII Etest data?

 

[GeoHorn]

Ahh…. BOURNEMOUTH! Lovely village, famous for production during WW2 of the Hawker Hurricane fighter! (the one that actually shot down bombers and Stukas with considerably less recognition than the pretty Spitfire.) and flown by the American “Eagle Squadron” volunteers before the U.S. was willing to get into a hot-war.
I ferried a HS-125 from Texas to Bournemouth in 1985 and had my first taste of REAL ale in the local pub!…while at the aerodrome…what should land..but the “Battle of Britain” flight of three… a Lancaster, a Hurricane, and a Spit… and the pilot of the Lancaster turned out to be an old squadron-mate with my acting First Officer… and whereby we were allowed full access to climb around and through that wonderful aeroplane…. which is a fond memory indeed!

The “right to repair” issue is burgeoning across the entire spectrum of modern machinery. My Yamaha outboard requires a special ”APP” and laptop to read it’s condition and to program simple repairs. The difference between that and JD is that the Yamaha CD and adaptor-plug for a Windows Laptop is only $85 and revision service is a simple internet-available download without charge.
THAT is customer-service as it SHOULD be, IMO.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Real 'customer service' would NOT charge the customer for the app, cd or updates.

I never charged my remote energy control customers a penny for computer updates,upgraded equipment or service calls EXCEPT when forklifts 'magically' took my panels off the walls.

 

[Dieseldonato]

re: No two cylinders are the same and the injector is calibrated to match the cylinder. Reflash the ECM and that calibration is lost.
and
That's exactly what I'm saying. Any injector off the shelf is pretty close. But in order for the engine to run correctly the ECM needs to know exactly how long to hold that injector open to achieve the same ratio on each cylinder. That's where the calibration come in.


so the ECM 'learns' the new injector,updates and then engine runs fine after a 'while', like a car's computer after you reset the OBDII Etest data?

Your programming the base flow of the injector essentially. It will learn where it needs to be, but you can be out of emissions compliance for a while and never know it. It's not typically a detriment to the engine. We're not talking huge differences from injector to injector. The information doesn't clear out when you clear codes.

 

[GeoHorn]

Real 'customer service' would NOT charge the customer for the app, cd or updates.

I never charged my remote energy control customers a penny for computer updates,upgraded equipment or service calls EXCEPT when forklifts 'magically' took my panels off the walls.

I understand your point… But if you bought a 1952 Ford…and you wanted the equivalent of todays diagnostic/maintenance software… which was called the Workshop Manual… you did not get that Free …you had to purchase that. I don’t have a problem with paying a fair fee price for maintenance information that I might wish to have for my personal use.… and I don’t want it “built into” the purchase price of every vehicle Ford or Kubota makes …which they’d have to do if issued to each/every purchaser …even if they have no intention of ever using it.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

The official Ford Service Manual for my 1967 Mustang cost me $20 back in '76. It also covered Fairlanes, Cougars and 3 or 4 more. Manual was detailed enough for the kid(17 back then) to tear down and rebuild the C6 tranny he had.
I agree a 'fair' price is OK, Problem is what's 'fair' ? I made OBDII scanners for $20,2-3 decades ago, 1/2 that is the friggin plastic case and connector. When you make them by the 1,000s , chips get really,really cheap. Today, most places, you download a file, so no CD, floppy disc, cassette or paper tape to worry about. Heck ,I remember patching the Operating Systems for micros back in the '70s and '80s. Today, the OS will access MS or APPLE and autoupdate whether you want it to or not.
hmm, say you make the software, charge customers $1000 and have 1000 sales... that's 1 million bucks. It's very unlikely you paid 500K for the app to be created( 5 guys for a year @ 100K ??) HUGE profit margin, and I'm betting JD sells more than 1000 units.

BTW I'd rather have a '53 Ford...it'd be as old as me !