TTWT, EPA, and Tractor Purchase

[Nicksacco]

Many of you probably have seen Tim - he does a lot of vids on his channel and this one piqued my interest.
He discusses what manufacturers are doing to comply with the regulations concerning exhaust and the 25 hp diesel engines as they build their tractors.
I found the DOC (Diesel Oxidation Catalyst) interesting. But any way you slice it, the burden is always added cost and maintenance.
Curious to hear what ya'll have to say about this.

 

[mcfarmall]

An expensive tax to solve a problem that didn't exist.

 

[B737]

people make such a big deal over this stuff, they need to get over it.

DPF has been around nearly TWO decades. People act like it's something new. Just like how V6s went away in light of smaller forced induction engines. This is the landscape now, the alternative is to buy an old machine or sacrifice horsepower / weight. At some point you need the horsepower / size and there is no other option.

Working with a Tier 4 engine is not much different than any other. It does not impact work in any way. It is not an inconvenience.

Use the equipment properly per manufactures instructions, and the emissions (for the most part) are covered by manufacturers warranty and invisible to the operator. When it's not, there are options.

Tier 4 definitely would not sway me away from any machine. Just like advent of safety sensors, just one more thing to monitor / maintain.

On a political note. It's unfortunate how wrapped up the EU and USA are in this minutia, the consumer pays the price. One thing I noticed traveling to many places across the globe, is developing countries clearly do not care, live freely without restrictions and a lot less expenses. As a result, you can't see the end of the city block when you leave the hotel (China). Or have to wear an N95 mask to go outside because AQI is over 200 (India).

PS. I'm loving the double team videos lately of TTWT and KensBoltonHooks!

 

[jimh406]

The Mahindra solution has some of the same issues, but just doesn't have a DPF. There is no free lunch with respect to emissions solutions. If you can get by with a lower HP tractor, just drop down a bit in HP for no emissions issues. I would need a lot more HP to switch to an over 25HP tractor. Personally, I think I'd go all of the way to the MX with cab before having a DPF would be worth it to me.

Of course, the first years/attempts at DPFs were a fail on trucks from 2007+ on trucks, so I don't think you can count those times. So instead of two decades, we are really talking about just over one decade. You lose HP by having a DPF whenever you hit regen mode. The DPF is a terrible solution that wastes fuel. There are other ways to burn more cleanly besides using a DPF including producing cleaner diesel fuel.

As noted, other countries aren't playing by the same rules. We are pretending to make a difference while other countries are polluting the air at levels that the US never did or at least at the levels of 50 years ago. From a real solution standpoint, encouraging those countries to meet us half way would do far more than us using DPFs.

DPFs on compact tractors is insignificant to the worldwide pollution issue, but I guess, great if you are only interested in pretending to fix an issue.

 

[B737]

well said Jim

 

[58Ford]

You also can’t blame anyone for hesitation on adding any additional complexity as it usually involves increased operating expenses. You even admit - just one more thing to monitor/maintain. Warranty is great until it’s user error or the warranty has expired. That is obviously where the expenses kick in.

 

[BobInSD]

I also hear many more regen horror stories from foks in northern climates. What works at +80 in Alabama might not work as well at -20 in BF South Dakota.

 

[NCL4701]

If I was choosing between a Tier 4 and non-Tier 4, either of which would meet my needs, I would avoid Tier 4 only on the general principle of less complexity usually translates into less stuff to break. However, if a lower HP machine won’t meet your needs, it’s really not that big of a deal for it to run a regen now and then. Running an undersized tractor is a huge problem. (BTDT)

Mine ran a regen this past weekend. Yeah, I had to throttle up so it made more noise. Was working before, during, and after regen with no work stoppage or slow down. Once in a blue moon it hits at an inconvenient time, such as right when I’m shutting down or when I need to be engaging and disengaging the PTO (engaging a pushbutton PTO at WOT is a bad idea). As others have stated, it isn’t like it’s new technology that’s prone to unforeseen flaws. It’s just one more thing on an already complex machine.

I’d much rather have my 47hp tractor with Tier 4 DPF than a 25hp tractor without DPF.

 

[mcfarmall]

To further expand on the reliability issues surrounding diesel engine aftertreatment, the EPA has exempted any engine used in life safety applications including but not limited to standby generators, fire apparatus, stationary diesel fire pumps and military vehicles. Do you realize that every time an old smoky diesel engine fires up hundreds of grandparents die from lung cancer?‽? (Heavy sarcasm conclusion here).

 

[B737]

Actually, firetrucks have DPF and DEF. Emergency vehicles still need emissions. I only know this because I recently asked a friend who is a firefighter if all the trucks had DPF and DEF, they do. At least here.

Emergency Vehicles and the EPA

On June 8, 2012, the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) announced the granting of relief for fire trucks and ambulances.

www.fireapparatusmagazine.com

The biggest misconception with both the DFR and NPRM is that emergency vehicles will now be exempt from having to meet current emissions standards. This may be a result of a regulatory announcement that carried a misleading title.

 

[mcfarmall]

Actually, firetrucks have DPF and DEF. Emergency vehicles still need emissions. I only know this because I recently asked a friend who is a firefighter if all the trucks had DPF and DEF, they do. At least here.

Emergency Vehicles and the EPA

On June 8, 2012, the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) announced the granting of relief for fire trucks and ambulances.

www.fireapparatusmagazine.com

Thanks for the correction B737

 

[B737]

Thanks for the correction B737

All I know is if I had to pick between two fire trucks to stop my house from burning down, I pick the one without DPF!

 

[cthomas]

The GM vehicles I work on (ambulances and fire (supervisor or brush trucks) have all the emissions intact. What is different is the ECM's programming, which still have the DEF warning's but, will not reduce power/speed in case of failure. And no you can not just reprogram the average GM truck ECM with this programming. Also all military vehicles have this programming too as wouldn't it really suck to have someone shooting at you and speed limited to 4 MPH.

 

[jimh406]

I read on Ford-trucks a while a back about many Fords owned by the Federal govt that didn't have DPFs. The poster included pictures and was surprised that they didn't have DPFs. So, ymmv.

 

[NHSleddog]

All I know is if I had to pick between two fire trucks to stop my house from burning down, I pick the one without DPF!

What happened to the water pressure?

No worries, it's the dpf keeping the air clean (as the blaze blazes smoke in the background) we should be back to 100% in just a few minutes if the check engine light doesn't come on.