Fried ECU

[GeoHorn]

That was kind SDT, Thx.

 

[RCW]

Difficult, expensive and not always possible.

I understand load dump rather well.

Few folks have even heard of it.

SDT

SDT - - - count me in as one of the group that's never heard of it....

I'm far from an expert with modern automotive technology.

I guess I'll stick to doing easy brake jobs, filling the windshield washer fluid, and tinkering with my 70 year old 'Moline.....

My son had a recurring electrical gremlin in a Nissan Rogue last year. The first thing the dealership did was replace ECM (under warranty). Surprised me that was the first response to the issue, and they did find a short in the harness while doing so.

Fordtech was coaching me, and the final answer was to trade the vehicle. Ford wasn't convinced the problem had been fixed either....

While not necessarily analogous, it reinforces how little I know about modern technology....

Thank you for the clear explanation of the load dump issue.

I have to ask: you have backgrounds in engineering, a Juris Doctor, and a couple other professional credentials...is there an MD in the "tool kit" as well?!?

Just poking fun....thank you again.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

re: My son had a recurring electrical gremlin in a Nissan Rogue last year. The first thing the dealership did was replace ECM (under warranty). Surprised me that was the first response to the issue, and they did find a short in the harness while doing so.

That doesn't surprise me, wife's 2019 Qashqui( baby Rogue) had 'interesting' gremlins....1) you could start car(ONLY has real keys), turn key to 'off',remove key, hang key up in kitchen and the car's STILL running ! Yes, you could even drive it too..... 2) factory remote start wouldn't shutoff car after 10 minutes(supposed to , all remotes do.) Over 2 1/2 MONTHS and several trips to dealer they FINALLY did what I TOLD them to do on day one....repair/replace wiring harness from ECU to remstart. ONCE they did that ,everything worked.
My homemade CANbus 'analyzer' KNEW what was causing the 'gremlins'....yet the factory trained experts, using factory equipment had no clue as to what was causing the problem.....
Unlike 'tech' in cars, etc. my systems have UNIQUE IDs for EVERY sensor, not the 'generic' nonsense. I can also tell WHERE a wire is broken,using 4 decade old 'technology'......

 

[RCW]

That doesn't surprise me, wife's 2019 Qashqui( baby Rogue) had 'interesting' gremlins....

Jay - - I remember you saying that in the OTT thread I had on that car.

This car was bought at auction by dealer friends of ours just for my son. They made $0 on the deal, and put a lot of effort into it.

Fordtech wondered if the car had an accident/damage history. I didn't seen any evidence of it, and I think CarFax was clean. But I think he was onto something, and it was best to cut our losses.....

 

[SDT]

SDT - - - count me in as one of the group that's never heard of it....

I'm far from an expert with modern automotive technology.

I guess I'll stick to doing easy brake jobs, filling the windshield washer fluid, and tinkering with my 70 year old 'Moline.....

My son had a recurring electrical gremlin in a Nissan Rogue last year. The first thing the dealership did was replace ECM (under warranty). Surprised me that was the first response to the issue, and they did find a short in the harness while doing so.

Fordtech was coaching me, and the final answer was to trade the vehicle. Ford wasn't convinced the problem had been fixed either....

While not necessarily analogous, it reinforces how little I know about modern technology....

Thank you for the clear explanation of the load dump issue.

I have to ask: you have backgrounds in engineering, a Juris Doctor, and a couple other professional credentials...is there an MD in the "tool kit" as well?!?

Just poking fun....thank you again.

Unfortunately, RCW, no MD.

Wish there was so that I could also practice medicine for myself.

SDT

 

[Mark_BX25D]

As I understand it, as the battery dies, the alternator output goes up. Apparently, there is no voltage or amperage (I'm not an electrician) limiter, hence the very high alternator output is what actually fried the ECU.

Voltage control is always part of the charging circuit. It has to be. We used to have external voltage regulators, but these days, most seem to be built in to the alternator, OR, the ECU controls it. The alternator output does not go up just because the battery dies.

Now, if you disconnect the battery while the engine is running, you could get a nasty spike. (That's why you should never do that.) And, while it's conceivable that this could harm an ECU, it's really not likely. They are just not all that fragile. They DO go bad, but it's a lot less common than most people think.

I have to wonder if someone did some welding on the tractor. That's a good way to fry electronics.

 

[whitetiger]

If the battery was low/dead and a charger or booster cables were installed reverse polarity, damage to the ECU could be the end result.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

ECU 'should' be protected from reverse polarity.... that'd cost less than 5 cents to do.,given the quantity of ECUs that a mfr makes.

 

[Daren Todd]

Kubota requires dealers to retain ALL warranty replaced parts for 120 days. 6 months. And this is AFTER the claim is processed/paid--which can take months on it's own....

The downside to that is.....in the case where I worked, 6 months of warranty parts adds up QUICKLY, and it becomes a pile (a big pile) in one month, with no good place to put them. One place I worked had a neat shelf that spanned an entire wall of the shop (about 70 foot length) specifically made and labeled for warranty parts, by date and manufacturer (since we had 4 brands). It worked well as long as it was maintained. Every so often we'd go through and trash the parts that were out of date (over 120 days in kubota's case). BUT--it never fails, the day after the garbage truck runs, Kubota sends you an email requesting either photos or return of the warranty part that is out of date. So we resorted to keep them typically for about a year. Cleaning around Christmas. You talk about a pile of parts! Keep in mind we (or "I", more specifically) were doing around 190-220 labor hours per month. We stayed busy with warranty and customer-pay work. Too busy. My body paid the price too. You can do some math on that. I was being paid around $20/hr plus a bonus. Dealer was bringing in around $20,000/mo off of my work, paying me $4000 (gross). As for me? Nary a day went by that I didn't HURT, everywhere from head to toe. 20,000-22,000 steps/day (pedometer-prescribed). Work consumed me, totally. Get home from work, rest for hours. Not much energy left to cook dinner so I generally would eat frozen or prepared. Not good diet which made it worse. Sleep a few hours do it the next day. 5 or 6 days a week (2 saturdays a month) with a few hours off, 2 wk vacation and could not take more than 5 days at a time (so people wouldn't take all 2 weeks at once). No air conditioning in the shop, 105-120 in the shop daily poor electricical service such that when you plug in a couple fans, it trips the breaker. Last 8 months (Feb-Oct 2020) with poor heaters, which wasn't a big issue except for Feb/Mar/part of April)--it might have reached 60 if it ran all day and the doors STAYED down (rare). The concrete work was at best, poor...nothing level, standing dirt, rough concrete surface, cracked everywhere and a pair of streams that ran UNDER the foundation (right under both of the 9000 lb 2 post lifts). Keep in mind I take lots of pride in my work and I don't do poor work, period. I want 100% customer expectations to be met. I couldn't do that with the facility we had. Level a mower deck? LOL! It wears on you. After 3 decades, I went in on one saturday and said I've had enough, put my notice in and 2 weeks later left and haven't looked back.

side note, I was talking to a guy I used to work with and we had a pretty good conversation about time, life, and work. One thing he mentioned was that all we have (as humans) is time. We sell our time to our employers. If all we have is time and time is our life, then we are selling our life to our employers. Interesting thought, at least I thought so.

They've (kubota) gotten better but not by much. Now they're requesting digital photos of the unit, the serial number, engine number, AND the failure in question, then the part that caused the failure (causal part). I have know of other dealers who've used hybrid phototography which is wrong. IOW, they'd take pics of the unit, serial number, then take pics of someone else's failed part on a different machine or out of the warranty parts pile. This was done when I worked with Deere, although I heard of it at one of "our" (dealer chain) kubota dealers. I always lived by doing right, and not teasing a rattlesnake.

I'm sure they have good reasoning for doing things that they do but as a former tech, some things that they wanted were asinine. Like returning of a mowing deck to the warranty dept for inspection--even after pictures were clearly sent and the claim paid. They'd get the deck back (and no they don't always pay shipping/freight) and deem that it was customer abuse/neglect and at that point they debit our account the amount of the claim. Keep in mind, it was 11 months after the claim was processed and paid. It happened too often. Once is too often. But on the flip side I have experienced times when a repair was a cut-and-dried case of neglect, thus not warrantable, and we (I) would submit it as a pre-authorization for warranty coverage, knowing full well that they wouldn't pay for it. Days/weeks go by, customer's paid and picked his stuff up, and then warranty department authorized the repair under warranty (or sometimes as a goodwill). So then the issue there is having to get in touch with the customer who is probably not happy (they won't answer the phone) and (2) getting the accounting department at the dealer to cut a check for a few times thousands of dollars. Of course the customer if you could get in touch with them was ecstatic and immediately showed up for a check regardless of whether the dealer had the funds available or not. BTDT. After payroll was done at the little place I worked for, wasn't much left.

People just think that warranty is cut-and-dried and as you can see from just a few examples, it's complicated--but necessary. I advise most folks that if you have an issue, if it's an easy fix like tightening a bolt, just take care of it on your own if possible. If its something that is more involved, get the dealer and the manufacturer involved keeping in mind that they don't cover abuse, neglect, lack of maintenance, bouncing off of trees, rollovers, and transportation to and from the dealership. If you are on your Kommander Z251 and run it up a cedar tree trying to trim it and break the belt, chances are VERY good that you're gonna have a hard time getting coverage under the limited warranty, in those cases, fix it yourself or pay the dealer.

Ford has a major recall on their F550's with service bodies with crains, buckets, tow trucks (rollback or standard tow) and roll off dumpster bodies.

Frames cracking right behind the cab, so they need to do an inspection and install frame support brackets. My service truck was the first one the local dealer did. They had to sub out the bed removal and reinstall to the tune of $8,000. Ford corporate wanted to pay up to 20 tech hrs.

Anyway, they called when bthe back ordered parts and tools came in for the repair. They had the truck for 2 weeks. Gave me the truck back while they fought with Ford of reimbursement for the unexpected expenses.

Service manager called me Friday. Asked if there was anyway I could swing by with the truck. They thought they had everything g settled with Ford, then they demanded more pictures.

I swung by Monday when they opened so their shop foreman could take the truck back to get the photos they needed.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

'unexpected expenses'? Yeesh, did Ford figure it was just a frame and cab? NO crane,or rollback or ?? on it ???
8K to remove/install seems high as that'd be 80 hrs@ $100 per. That's 2 guys, full time for a week ??
Just curious as to what was on the truck frame ?

 

[CurtV]

Thanks to all so far. Really appreciate it. To address some of the questions:

• I believe there is a 6 year powertrain warrantee, but I also believe that "electronics" are excluded.
• I don't know what KTAC is, so I probably don't have it.
• No mods or abuse
• Local Kubota dealer diagnosed the problem and ordered the part for me. They asked Kubota for warrantee coverage, but were denied. They plan to file a "goodwill" request on my behalf. I'll let you know how that goes.
• Have not been in touch with Kubota corporate at any level as yet. Would like to learn the scope of the problem (how many, how long) before I contact them
• There is no more to the story. You have all that I have
• Yes, the attachment is for the ECU purchase
• MX5800

Again, do you know any other cases of this?

Thanks a million

Yes Henry, I am experiencing the exact scenario as you. I am in shock that a dead battery would cause a $2500 ECU to fry. On another forum the members and mechanics said this is not uncommon. I have bought two Kubota products and a large trailer. If Kubota does not respond fairly I will not buy anything else from them. I was planning another major purchase.

 

[CurtV]

Henry - The exact same thing is happening to me right now. The battery went bad, I went to a Kubota dealer and bought a new one. I hooked it up properly (no reversing of cables) and it cranked over fine. However, error code P0605 appeared. The forums and the mechanics said this is not uncommon. A dead battery causes the ECU to fail. I checked the fuses, had a Kubota tech run his diagnostic program, and even tried it again.
My question is why does the power train part of the warranty cover this part? You cannot start the tractor to engage the emissions if the engine will not start due to the computer that is part of the power train system (no ECU no power train start and function).
I have bought 2 Kubota machines and 1 large Orange trailer. I hope Kubota helps me. If not I am done with them. Maybe they will come through. I will let you know.

 

[Orange man hero]

Totally insane is a $2500 ECU.....May sell to prevent future cost of this.

 

[RBsingl]

Connecting a jump voltage source to a machine with a dead battery can create an extremely high voltage transient but at least in the automotive world they are pretty well protected against this type of event.

A healthy battery will clamp any spikes to a nominal amount more than the battery voltage because that spike is trying to charge the battery; it is high voltage but low current so it is easily tamed by a healthy battery. But a battery at end of life will have high internal resistance and even worse is a battery with an open cell which will offer no spike protection at all. These transients are typically generated at the moment of connecting and/or disconnecting the external power source.

A MOV (metal oxide varistor) across the nominal 12 volt bus offers some protection but is imperfect because the voltage where it changes state must be above any normal expected voltage (like when the alternator is commanded to rapid charge) and the clamping knee is going to be a bit over twice this rated voltage. A high power Zener diode offers better protection by hard clamping at a level close to the expected maximum voltage.

But this protection should be built into the system. It isn't common in the automotive world but sometimes ancillary items (like infotainment systems) aren't as well protected and they are damaged when "jump" starting when the vehicle battery is severely compromise.

Rodger

 

[Orange man hero]

Connecting a jump voltage source to a machine with a dead battery can create an extremely high voltage transient but at least in the automotive world they are pretty well protected against this type of event.

A healthy battery will clamp any spikes to a nominal amount more than the battery voltage because that spike is trying to charge the battery; it is high voltage but low current so it is easily tamed by a healthy battery. But a battery at end of life will have high internal resistance and even worse is a battery with an open cell which will offer no spike protection at all. These transients are typically generated at the moment of connecting and/or disconnecting the external power source.

A MOV (metal oxide varistor) across the nominal 12 volt bus offers some protection but is imperfect because the voltage where it changes state must be above any normal expected voltage (like when the alternator is commanded to rapid charge) and the clamping knee is going to be a bit over twice this rated voltage. A high power Zener diode offers better protection by hard clamping at a level close to the expected maximum voltage.

But this protection should be built into the system. It isn't common in the automotive world but sometimes ancillary items (like infotainment systems) aren't as well protected and they are damaged when "jump" starting when the vehicle battery is severely compromise.

Rodger

 

[Orange man hero]

GOOD INFO.....TNKssss

 

[GreensvilleJay]

So, the 64,000 $ question is HOW does Kubota install and connect the battery at the dealership ? What 'magic' do they perform to not fry the $2500 computer EVERY time they make a tractor or service one ?
hmmm ?????
There shouldn't be any 'sparks' when the battery is attached, with 'key off', no current can flow, therefore no 'sparks', no damage.

MOVs are just one part you can use to protect 'computers' from being 'zapped'. GDT (Gas Discharge Tubes ), sparkcaps, chokes, varistors, caps,etc. I used all of them and even with miles, yes MILES of copper wire attached to my computers, never lost one,even to nearby lightning strikes.

If the computer is fried by the installation of the battery, then it's a manufacturing design flaw/defect in the tractor.

 

[JoeR]

It might not be a voltage spike that's killing them. Weak batteries also allow there to be more AC ripple from the alternator. They all leak AC voltage. We did a bunch of testing on that in the mid 90s on cars/pickups when aftermarket engine controllers were first hitting the market. There were performance problems with some of them. Especially when it came to idle control. We had a signal generator that could make variable AC ripple at a 14V bias, so it was ideal for this type of checking. OEM processors had probably double the tolerance for ripple.
So it would be interesting to check the tractors that failed to see if they have a diode or rectifier problem that contributed to these failures. An alternator can still charge DC pretty well and have significant AC leakage. Probably even enough to be measured with a multimeter.
Of course all this is speculation, but that's what I'd want to check next.
I'm also wondering if the processors that smoked were connected to B+ with the key on. That might be something the engineers didn't design for, and be the source of these random pattern failures.
Joe

 

[Brad M]

For what it’s worth, the way a dead battery can fail some ECUs is………an ecu is a computer. Computers are meant to be off or on. Some ECUs are connected to constant power even when the engine isn’t running. As a battery goes dead, the voltage will get low enough to shut the ECU down. When it goes offline, the battery voltage will come up slightly and can wake the ECU again. Voltage drops and the ECU goes offline again and starts this cycle all over again. This constant on/off cycle of the ECU can eventually cause it to fail if it doesn’t have any protection built into it for this type of issue.

 

[bobdcoder]

For what it’s worth, the way a dead battery can fail some ECUs is………an ecu is a computer. Computers are meant to be off or on. Some ECUs are connected to constant power even when the engine isn’t running. As a battery goes dead, the voltage will get low enough to shut the ECU down. When it goes offline, the battery voltage will come up slightly and can wake the ECU again. Voltage drops and the ECU goes offline again and starts this cycle all over again. This constant on/off cycle of the ECU can eventually cause it to fail if it doesn’t have any protection built into it for this type of issue.

Firstly (I'm not trying to hijack the above or this topic)...
just cant keep my mouth and mind shut.

I am new here but found your question/comment very interesting and insightful. Hope you feel the same with my response!
Forgive my sarcasm, I joke too keep my BP lower.

I have a degree in IT "computer programming, some networking" and feel you brought up a valid point.

I concur: Yes an ECU is a computer! if I may break it down in a few points.... ECU -in-contrast- Computers (of all types).

What does a computer Do? it Computes, Calculates, Processes Information (into a DIGITAL binary code form). machine code/electrical impulses ... or not/null!

• Information can be defined as data, a software and Firmware are comprised of data code (instructions) which is compiled into a binary form.
• A computer ...stores Data/Information and computes a binary code/form of 1 & 0 ( in a preset ISO designated order of bits called integers) thats it.
  • think of a power switch (pc or light switch! eg...labeled 1 or 0)
  • 1 = On (lights/power on)
  • 0 = Off (lights/power off)
• Both store data/info in the ROM/EPROM memory as many ecu's have no CDRW, hard-drive or diskettes (other types of storage capability). But make no mistake both store flashed data via software/firmware in the temp memory, EPROM and ROM.
• Both have temp memory
• CPUs
• maybe math co-processors
• much more exact or like similarities of electronics
• Just Designed differently for purpose on purpose of course!

The lack of a monitor screen and keyboard on a ECU is not what makes a computer! They are interfaces. A keyboard and mouse are input interfaces that allow interactivity with the computer. Even many monitors and other screens can allow you to interface with them. (Touch Screens like your cell phone)

But as too relate them, Even your tractor has such similar interfaces though they are more limited. Many newer models have 2 or more buttons you can press and cause an input based on which one you press/select. Pressing both and a key on sequence will bring up a select-able options menu item (1 at a time) on the control panel Display where your mileage/hours are displayed.

Where else can you find a display, your cell phone, a TV, radios. Oh! Your laptop, desktop pc, microwave, car radios, checkouts, etc... (my God! its a Matrix/I-Robot nightmare coming true!!!!)

Hummmmm? Seems we have more computers than we think or claim to own/know/consider.
Ever hear a car commercial bragging about an On Board Computer System?
Its just a more feature rich integration/bells and whistles. Its an extended version of the master ECU... or independant (so to speak)! But both still work together communicate easily. Java/Binary/machine Binary code.

My favorite language is Java, its in your tv, phones, stoves, microwaves, cars, radios, remotes, automated machines, Even NASA Space Shuttle, Mars/Moon rovers, Satellites, etc all use Java.
Java is open source meaning its free too everyone, but requires a paid subscription/license for commercial use. (Commercially selling software created in Java). More so it uses machine/PC language which is ... Guess what? converted Binary Code 1 & 0.

Yes! computer is best left on, it wears faster of off/on each day. that poor hard dive and cooling fan! (Even though you plug into your 120v wall AC socket... its all immediately converted and running on DC voltage anyway. just like your TV!)

But even if your house power goes out (eg...change the car/tractor battery) and the internal watch size battery on the PC board goes out as well; it will recover without a ER hospital visit for a new CPU or Motherboard.

Just replace a new watch battery and turn it back on when the power is restored. Back in business! No P0605, P0606 Fault codes.. It has all the system firmware flashed into the EPROM or ROM.

But its Hinky! Your tractor does the same with that spinning thingy, whats it called? a record player....ummm no. Oh! An alternator!!!!!! Ironically the alternator has internal circuits that convert the AC into DC current. Just like your PC and the 120 volts AC is converted into a measly 3.3v and 1.5 volts. But your $700 pc wont fry if the battery or power is removed even if it surges a little!

What else??? Oh! LASTLY!!!!! the Cell phone and the usb too wall charger.
I go cheap and buy the wally word wall charger and a compatible USB cord. Funny I just plug in the adapter in a house wall socket, attach the USB cord to the adapter and my cell pone. Guess what? The adapter and cord doesn't do crap but pass the 120 volts AC along. My little old cell phone ($120.00) takes that 120 volts AC (20 amps), converts it too DC current.

Then my 9 yr old out dated ($120.00) battery operated cell phone reduces the DC voltage down too >3.3 volts and charges my cell phone battery. I can even change the battery out with it on, if it goes bad or weakens. recharge the new one to full.... I can use my phone! even while its charging!

But the $55,000.00 (k) Kubota... got too be careful in changing the battery, best change it before it goes bad, (read the how to change a battery or watch a youtube video! (Ludricous). Just chunk the older (still good) battery in the trash or local politicians yard. "its getting old'! Dont want it to fry the (what $4000.00) ecu and shut you down for a month or more!

Better yet, best spend a day and load-up and drive 30 miles... let Kubota service pro charge you an extra $50! Let them deal with the highly snowflake sensitive task.