Well if I have trouble with my MIC one (which I doubt I will) I have a bucket load of (I think) US made ones just not as easy to work with (no brackets or wire harnesses). But so far it's been going strong. And I got a whole box of them with harnesses. So they will be used for adding wiring for my tow behind sprayer, auxiliar lighting and so on.
Voltage drop to starter
- Thread starter Strodad
- Start date
Ehh NOT bingo but I am done. The solenoid actually performs a MECHANICAL function in the form of engaging the starter gear. A RELAY does NOT. It's simply a switch and could even be replaced with a solid state device
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
re: The solenoid actually performs a MECHANICAL function in the form of engaging the starter gear.
Not according to Ford Motor Company ( google 'ford starter solenoid' ) and a list of others....
maybe it's a tomatoe , tomato thing, depends on where in the world you live and what education you received...
Not according to Ford Motor Company ( google 'ford starter solenoid' ) and a list of others....
maybe it's a tomatoe , tomato thing, depends on where in the world you live and what education you received...
Solenoid -vs- Relay -- two names which are often interchangeable.
In most cases, they are both MECHANICAL in the sense that they use magnetism to move something.
It may be safe to say that a 'solenoid' always has a steel piston sliding inside an electric coil while a 'relay' does not use a piston inside the coil.
There is also a "Bendix Solenoid" which is mounted on a starter motor. A "Bendix Solenoid" does TWO things at the same time:
To make matters more confusing... there are also solid-state relays which can switch a circuit without any moving parts.
Heck: Even my icon in the upper-left (vacuum tube) is considered an electric switch.
In most cases, they are both MECHANICAL in the sense that they use magnetism to move something.
- A "relay" is most often a small electric switch.
- A "solenoid" is more often a heavy current switch. (like a 200Amp starter solenoid)
- A 'solenoid' can also open/close a valve or move a lever. (like the engine-shutoff solenoid on many diesel engines)
It may be safe to say that a 'solenoid' always has a steel piston sliding inside an electric coil while a 'relay' does not use a piston inside the coil.
There is also a "Bendix Solenoid" which is mounted on a starter motor. A "Bendix Solenoid" does TWO things at the same time:
- Engages the starter gear with the engine flywheel
- Completes a circuit to make the starter run.
To make matters more confusing... there are also solid-state relays which can switch a circuit without any moving parts.
Heck: Even my icon in the upper-left (vacuum tube) is considered an electric switch.
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
gets even worse as 'electrical' guys use 'contactors', which most folks consider to be a 'relay on steroids' as they usually handle LOTS of amps at high voltages.......
I've got 'latching relays' here, 12VDC, 30A that have a moving steel piston to actuate the electrical connection. So should be called a 'solenoid' but the mfr (P&B) call them relays.
I like vacuum tubes ! Last ones I used were 304TL.
Made my own SSR (Solid State Relays) 3 decades ago as none were 'self-indicating'. Still none being made today,shame really as you can't see inside to see if they ARE working unlike relays, solenoids or contators.....
I've got 'latching relays' here, 12VDC, 30A that have a moving steel piston to actuate the electrical connection. So should be called a 'solenoid' but the mfr (P&B) call them relays.
I like vacuum tubes ! Last ones I used were 304TL.
Made my own SSR (Solid State Relays) 3 decades ago as none were 'self-indicating'. Still none being made today,shame really as you can't see inside to see if they ARE working unlike relays, solenoids or contators.....
Bruce…are you certain it’s not a “valve”…???
”Contactor” is another British term for solenoid or electrical-relay. I believe “high” or “low” (as relates to voltage or amperage, etc) are relative/subjective terms only. Contactors (or relays/solenoids) may be either “high” or “Low” volts/amps…. simply used in locations remote from the primary control or switch.
(This pandemic thing has got us desperate for discussion…heh?
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GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
well, if you want a real head scratcher, ask yourseld WHY does Michelin put RFID tags into every tire they now make !!!
. is for when you write something and hit <post reply>….then see what you did…realize it is unkind/embarrassing/foolish/idiotic/snarky/UNprofound/embarrassing (did I already write that?) and wish you’d learn to be less like those you don’t like….
The internet is a dangerous place. By its’ anonymity It has led us to be unkind and/or aggressive to people we don’t even know.
I’m trying to be the person my dog thinks I am.
(and I truly appreciate ALL you guys)
The internet is a dangerous place. By its’ anonymity It has led us to be unkind and/or aggressive to people we don’t even know.
I’m trying to be the person my dog thinks I am.
(and I truly appreciate ALL you guys)
It seems so
However, I contend that vacuum tubes were used both as "valves" , "switches" and in several other ways.
Examples:
In analog computers, vacuum tubes are used as "valves" to precisely amplify voltages. This is how they could add 1volt + 1volt and end up with 2volts. These computers were notoriously inaccurate and had little use in the real world. (I played with analog computers as a kid)
In a binary computer, vacuum tubes are either ON or OFF. In this case, they were electronic "switches". Many hundreds of tubes made up logic circuits. The accuracy and speed of logic-processing was FAR faster than using relays to do the same thing.
When solid-state transistors arrived, the speed and accuracy went WAYYY up. However, analog devices are necessarily costly to be accurate. Even waving your hand near the circuit could upset the accuracy. (Yes, I worked on such things as an electronics technician)
Binary ON/OFF can be extremely accurate.. (you just need millions of them).... hence the advent of the microprocessor chip.
Well to everyone an update. The battery is fully charged but there is still a drain coming from somewhere. I still get an intermittent crank no crank from the key, but I can get it to start right away when I jump battery to the keyed wire to the starter solenoid. I also noted that when it is dark outside all of my dash indicator lights flash off and on, which makes me wonder if my original idea that the key switch is in fact sloppy on the inside.
I would like to know what everyone thinks.
I would like to know what everyone thinks.
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
easy test
disconnect ign sw connector. odds are real good the dashlights won't flash.
the crank/no crank indicates not enough power going to your relay that switches the OEM starter solenoid.
you've got a 30+ year old switch ,probably a zillion operationss on it,well past it's designed 'useful life'.
Two options, Replace or repair it.
replace. Hopefully the switch is still available ? Part number will help. From your original post keyswitch doesn't look 'weird', though a complete wiring diagram would help to see the actual fused loads on G1,G2 and ACC. A 'generic' ign sw might work.
repair. While most are 'use once,buy another'. It may be possible to open it up, clean, refurbish the contacts, reassemble. It can be a finicky job. Sometimes the grease in them flows down onto the contacts, reducing power through the contacts. Copper 'studs' wear grooves, reduces power through them,rivets holding the lugs to the studs loosen a bit, making for interrmitant connections.
disconnect ign sw connector. odds are real good the dashlights won't flash.
the crank/no crank indicates not enough power going to your relay that switches the OEM starter solenoid.
you've got a 30+ year old switch ,probably a zillion operationss on it,well past it's designed 'useful life'.
Two options, Replace or repair it.
replace. Hopefully the switch is still available ? Part number will help. From your original post keyswitch doesn't look 'weird', though a complete wiring diagram would help to see the actual fused loads on G1,G2 and ACC. A 'generic' ign sw might work.
repair. While most are 'use once,buy another'. It may be possible to open it up, clean, refurbish the contacts, reassemble. It can be a finicky job. Sometimes the grease in them flows down onto the contacts, reducing power through the contacts. Copper 'studs' wear grooves, reduces power through them,rivets holding the lugs to the studs loosen a bit, making for interrmitant connections.
When I had it out I noted the post going into the plastic in the back are all loose. It is $70 to $78 dollars for a replacement from Kubota. I think it is time. Also just a few minuets ago I was trying to start the tractor and I let off the key and it continued to crank over.
You are describing the EXACT problem I had with my 40 year old Kubota.
Please refer to my original post (#20) and follow the steps to isolate your problem.
I described both VOLTAGE DROP voltage measurements... and an alternate approach to fix your problem.
If you feel the ignition-switch is the problem, it is TRIVIAL to connect voltmeter across the keyswitch and measure the VOLTAGE DROP. (while cranking)
Remember: The expectation is 0.000v.... but anything below 0.050v is acceptable.
You're describing 2 different issues. Voltage "drop" and voltage "drain". Is your battery going dead? Or are you simply having issues with the machine not starting and lights not being steady. Referring to your second issue. (lights flashing). Take a look on Amazon for your ign switch. I bought one for mine that is identical to OEM in every way for 1/4 the price of OEM from dealer. It works just fine BTW (though it was not my original issue it turned out) as installing the helper relay fixed the issue. In your case a helper relay may not given your variable descriptions
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
re: When I had it out I noted the post going into the plastic in the back are all loose.
I let off the key and it continued to crank over.
Two SURE signs you NEED to replace/repair the switch !!!
I let off the key and it continued to crank over.
Two SURE signs you NEED to replace/repair the switch !!!
What is the " helper relay "? I have to pull off the two panels to get the switch out and verify the lugs on the back, and i found a source for a replacement with the same part numbers for $47. Since mine is sloppy and I have only one worn out key I am planning to replace it.