The right to repair

Nicksacco

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This video is a bit old (2020), but I found it interesting and painful.
As a person who constantly repairs and restores machinery it hit close to home.
Since it does discuss repair - I placed it in this section.
So throw out your thoughts on repairs and evolving technologies.
When I first started programming computers in the early 70's, I didn't see this coming - HA! But the science fiction writers did!
Hmmm Does anyone know if the OBD devices for cars had this much trouble getting into customer's hands for automobiles - for eventual self diagnosis?

 
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TheOldHokie

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This video is a bit old (2020), but I found it interesting and painful.
As a person who constantly repairs and restores machinery it hit close to home.
Since it does discuss repair - I placed it in this section.
So throw out your thoughts on repairs and evolving technologies.
When I first started programming computers in the early 70's, I didn't see this coming - HA! But the science fiction writers did!
Hmmm Does anyone know if the OBD devices for cars had this much trouble getting into customer's hands for automobiles - for eventual self diagnosis?

Early on board diagnostics were proprietary implementations by OEMS with no standardization, interoperability, or documentation. The first standard (OBD1) came from emissions testing requirements set by the Califorina Air Resources Board (CARB). That was followed by a second standard (OBD2) issued by CARB which incorporated suggestiona made by SAE. A few years later that basic functionality became a federal requirement.

Much of the on board diagnostics used to program, diagnose. and repair modern vehicles is stil a proprietary secret and OEMs charge big bucks for the privilege of accessing it. It has turned into a product of its own controlled by the OEMs.

Dan
 

GreensvilleJay

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The infuriating problem with 'OBD' is that it doesn't say WHICH sensor has failed. More of a general 'it's something wrong somewhere kinda in this subsystem. Maybe the current generation of testers/OBD is better ??
What I did was take the POST for PCs and adapted it to my PICs. Even though the temperature sensors are 'one wire' based, the micro locates a bad sensor(along with serial number), remove from service. Also can still communicate with all the others even if the wire breaks.
 

TheOldHokie

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The OBD2 specification is the tip of the iceberg. OEM diagnostics are typically pinpoint specific.

BMW has released their factory and dealer software (binary and source) to the public. Even the scaled down 3rd party Android port I use is telling me exactly what sensor is periodically illuminating the Service Engine lamp on my 335i. Have a look and you will see what I mean. If you look at the code you may meed to brush up on your German.

Dan
 

lugbolt

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several points to make here. I am not defending the OEM, nor any government entity, just stating facts-and you can take it however you want.

First, understand that an ECU only knows voltage. That's all it knows. If you send 5v reference signal to a tps which is basically a glorified potentiometer, another wire sends a reduced variable voltage based on throttle position, back to the ecu. The ecu reads it and says "hey I'm at 1/4 throttle". All sensors are basically doing the same thing. A crank or cam sensor is a generator, the ecu reads the voltage and how that voltage is generated, then Sending a reading back to the ecu for the ecu to take the voltage and apply it. Therein lies a huge underestimation, or better term, misunderstanding. Just because you get a trouble code for a failed tps, doesn't necessarily mean the tps is dead; although the temptation is certainly there to just replace it with a new one. Oftentimes there are other reasons that the voltage that the ecu reads is high or low. Wiring! Grounds! Just to name two. You get the idea. How you test for those, is up to you. I do it one way y'all might do it another way.

What is the reason for efi? efi is electronic fuel injection. It can be gas or it can be diesel. It adjusts the injected fuel quantity and timing based on various sensors input to the ecu. The purpose is to provide a cleaner running engine, and the side effect of that is a smoother quieter running engine. That is why every single vehicle made nowadays is fuel injected, no more carburetors on anything but lawn mowers and some (few) outboard motors. It starts ice cold with no choke, no starting fluid, nothing. It starts hot. It idles good. And uses a little less fuel; assuming everything is working as designed and has not been 'modified'.

And therein lies huge issue(s). The systems as designed originally usually work mostly flawlessly. Consumers, however, have better ideas. They want more power. Simple. Don't we all? So aftermarket companies realized that consumers had wishes, and they made parts. These parts defeat the original purpose in order to make more power, and/or compensate for the elimination of certain features. But--in doing so, whether it be a simple power improvement, or compensation for the missing parts, now the engine emissions have changed. How? The original equipment as manufactured had to meet a certain emission standard, be it a noise emission, or chemical. When new, it met that. When modified, it doesn't. Usually.

So with that all in mind, if every Tom, Dick, and Harry that had an electronically controlled fuel injection 'equipment' (car/truck/tractor/mower/weed eater/etc) had access to the availability to change the fuel injection parameters, such that a 30hp tractor now can make 40hp with a simple stroke of a keyboard or click of the mouse, now you have the potential for a bunch of pieces of equipment to be modified outside of it's original parameters, affecting emissions. And reliability in a lot of cases. And with that, our government isn't too keen on that, nor is the original equipment manufacturer.

So that's why you are seeing the OEM's review this stuff, and that's also why they try to keep their software proprietary. Dealers need the software to make repairs, but most consumers don't need it-it's entirely possible to make changes that affect emissions, and if you don't know what you're doing, damage things beyond repair. If it's in warranty, that costs the manufacturer.

many think that kubota's efi stuff is just obd, and they'll have a code populated in their panel, and quickly google it. But keep in mind, that kubota's nomenclature is different than obd2 automotive stuff, and that's where confusion sets in. Trust me, been through it. Sometimes an automotive obd2 code has a certain meaning across the board, until you get to kubota and it may mean something similar but people find it from a youtube mechanic and automatically start fixing what the youtube tech said to, to find out that it wasn't the problem. Now you've spend hundreds or thousands of dollars and still have a problem. Or a worse problem. Of if you get real lucky, less of a problem.

oftentimes kubota (and other tractor manufacturers) will populate a trouble code and you can't clear it without the software and hardware. Pretty common in the trucking industry too. You can buy a code reader at the parts store for your car but it won't read all the codes, just some of them. And sometimes it won't even read it at all. They're very limited, and usually won't work with kubota or deere anyway.

Expense. Why's it cost so much to have a tractor worked on? Diagmaster (which I think is outdated now), kubota's software and hardware set, costs thousands and thousands of dollars. If you (a tech) use it 10 times a year and it's total cost is 10 grand, you have to justify $1,000 for each use just to pay for it. That doesn't include the 'license updates' that aren't free either. The actual numbers are examples only. The costs are high because they don't want consumers to use it. Also, the actual cost to dealers is high for a lot of reasons, one being that kubota doesn't really make it, they only supply it. In other words an outside company makes it, kubota gives them specs to make it to, so let's say Bosch makes it, they charge kubota $200 for it, then Kubota has to have programmers to license it, among many other things, and they're gonna have to pay the engineers to do their engineering...plus the workers at the warehouses, etc...now they have to put a price tag of $500 on it to break even, but they, like everyone else, is in the business to make money, so they're gonna put $750 on it and make $250 to cover other costs too (light bills, etc). You get the idea. And hopefully now you understand why things cost. It costs to make them, to send them, to stock them, and it even costs money to sell them. The more these costs increase, the more the consumer pays. Simple ain't it?
 
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TheOldHokie

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several points to make here. I am not defending the OEM, nor any government entity, just stating facts-and you can take it however you want.

First, understand that an ECU only knows voltage. That's all it knows. If you send 5v reference signal to a tps which is basically a glorified potentiometer, another wire sends a reduced variable voltage based on throttle position, back to the ecu. The ecu reads it and says "hey I'm at 1/4 throttle". All sensors are basically doing the same thing. A crank or cam sensor is a generator, the ecu reads the voltage and how that voltage is generated, then Sending a reading back to the ecu for the ecu to take the voltage and apply it. Therein lies a huge underestimation, or better term, misunderstanding. Just because you get a trouble code for a failed tps, doesn't necessarily mean the tps is dead; although the temptation is certainly there to just replace it with a new one. Oftentimes there are other reasons that the voltage that the ecu reads is high or low. Wiring! Grounds! Just to name two. You get the idea. How you test for those, is up to you. I do it one way y'all might do it another way.

What is the reason for efi? efi is electronic fuel injection. It can be gas or it can be diesel. It adjusts the injected fuel quantity and timing based on various sensors input to the ecu. The purpose is to provide a cleaner running engine, and the side effect of that is a smoother quieter running engine. That is why every single vehicle made nowadays is fuel injected, no more carburetors on anything but lawn mowers and some (few) outboard motors. It starts ice cold with no choke, no starting fluid, nothing. It starts hot. It idles good. And uses a little less fuel; assuming everything is working as designed and has not been 'modified'.

And therein lies huge issue(s). The systems as designed originally usually work mostly flawlessly. Consumers, however, have better ideas. They want more power. Simple. Don't we all? So aftermarket companies realized that consumers had wishes, and they made parts. These parts defeat the original purpose in order to make more power, and/or compensate for the elimination of certain features. But--in doing so, whether it be a simple power improvement, or compensation for the missing parts, now the engine emissions have changed. How? The original equipment as manufactured had to meet a certain emission standard, be it a noise emission, or chemical. When new, it met that. When modified, it doesn't. Usually.

So with that all in mind, if every Tom, Dick, and Harry that had an electronically controlled fuel injection 'equipment' (car/truck/tractor/mower/weed eater/etc) had access to the availability to change the fuel injection parameters, such that a 30hp tractor now can make 40hp with a simple stroke of a keyboard or click of the mouse, now you have the potential for a bunch of pieces of equipment to be modified outside of it's original parameters, affecting emissions. And reliability in a lot of cases. And with that, our government isn't too keen on that, nor is the original equipment manufacturer.

So that's why you are seeing the OEM's review this stuff, and that's also why they try to keep their software proprietary. Dealers need the software to make repairs, but most consumers don't need it-it's entirely possible to make changes that affect emissions, and if you don't know what you're doing, damage things beyond repair. If it's in warranty, that costs the manufacturer.

many think that kubota's efi stuff is just obd, and they'll have a code populated in their panel, and quickly google it. But keep in mind, that kubota's nomenclature is different than obd2 automotive stuff, and that's where confusion sets in. Trust me, been through it. Sometimes an automotive obd2 code has a certain meaning across the board, until you get to kubota and it may mean something similar but people find it from a youtube mechanic and automatically start fixing what the youtube tech said to, to find out that it wasn't the problem. Now you've spend hundreds or thousands of dollars and still have a problem. Or a worse problem. Of if you get real lucky, less of a problem.

oftentimes kubota (and other tractor manufacturers) will populate a trouble code and you can't clear it without the software and hardware. Pretty common in the trucking industry too. You can buy a code reader at the parts store for your car but it won't read all the codes, just some of them. And sometimes it won't even read it at all. They're very limited, and usually won't work with kubota or deere anyway.

Expense. Why's it cost so much to have a tractor worked on? Diagmaster (which I think is outdated now), kubota's software and hardware set, costs thousands and thousands of dollars. If you (a tech) use it 10 times a year and it's total cost is 10 grand, you have to justify $1,000 for each use just to pay for it. That doesn't include the 'license updates' that aren't free either. The actual numbers are examples only. The costs are high because they don't want consumers to use it. Also, the actual cost to dealers is high for a lot of reasons, one being that kubota doesn't really make it, they only supply it. In other words an outside company makes it, kubota gives them specs to make it to, so let's say Bosch makes it, they charge kubota $200 for it, then Kubota has to have programmers to license it, among many other things, and they're gonna have to pay the engineers to do their engineering...plus the workers at the warehouses, etc...now they have to put a price tag of $500 on it to break even, but they, like everyone else, is in the business to make money, so they're gonna put $750 on it and make $250 to cover other costs too (light bills, etc). You get the idea. And hopefully now you understand why things cost. It costs to make them, to send them, to stock them, and it even costs money to sell them. The more these costs increase, the more the consumer pays. Simple ain't it?
I hate to keep coning back to BMW but they are the poster child for owners in this debate. Their software has been in the public domain for over a decade with none of the problems you speculate about. When a customer changes a fuel map the change is digitally signed. You can back the map out but you can't recreate the OEM's digital signature on it and your warranty goes up in smoke. You cant steal a car and flash a new VIN but the software won't allow that operation. But you can program a new battery, change the headlight pattern, purge the ABS system, etc, etc, ietc.

The OEMs don't want to give up their monopoly on repairs because it makes them a lot of money. They developed the software and they have already invested that money. Its gone. Bundle the diagnostics with the purchase price as a reasonably priced option and they can recoup that expense but at the cost of loosing their monopoly on repairs, The only way that will happen is by governmental regulation and the OEM s will fight tooth and nail to prevent it.

Dan
 
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Magicman

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Even though my "working for the man" career was geared around electronics, at 78 years old my life is simple and I want to go out in a simple way.

A couple of years ago when I developed a need for a second tractor (one with a FEL) my priority was one without a 'common rail' which would require a 'computer' so I settled on a 2005 era M4900. I quickly found out that old tractors retain their value and require a bit of searching.

EDIT: I will have to admit that I used a MacBook Air to find it. ;)

When I needed a new chainsaw, I did not want the newer chip controlled units that require a laptop to program, so I opted for a Stihl MS362, without the C-M.

Try as I may, I suspect that my Keurig coffee maker has a chip. :rolleyes:
 
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SDT

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I hate to keep coning back to BMW but they are the poster child for owners in this debate. Their software has been in the public domain for over a decade with none of the problems you speculate about. When a customer changes a fuel map the change is digitally signed. You can back the map out but you can't recreate the OEM's digital signature on it and your warranty goes up in smoke. You cant steal a car and flash a new VIN but the software won't allow that operation. But you can program a new battery, change the headlight pattern, purge the ABS system, etc, etc, ietc.

The OEMs don't want to give up their monopoly on repairs because it makes them a lot of money. They developed the software and they have already invested that money. Its gone. Bundle the diagnostics with the purchase price as a reasonably priced option and they can recoup that expense but at the cost of loosing their monopoly on repairs, The only way that will happen is by governmental regulation and the OEM s will fight tooth and nail to prevent it.

Dan
Dealers make lots of money on service and repairs.

OEMs make little and provide parts, etc., mostly because they must.

SDT
 
D

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I hate to keep coning back to BMW but they are the poster child for owners in this debate. Their software has been in the public domain for over a decade with none of the problems you speculate about. When a customer changes a fuel map the change is digitally signed. You can back the map out but you can't recreate the OEM's digital signature on it and your warranty goes up in smoke. You cant steal a car and flash a new VIN but the software won't allow that operation. But you can program a new battery, change the headlight pattern, purge the ABS system, etc, etc, ietc.

The OEMs don't want to give up their monopoly on repairs because it makes them a lot of money. They developed the software and they have already invested that money. Its gone. Bundle the diagnostics with the purchase price as a reasonably priced option and they can recoup that expense but at the cost of loosing their monopoly on repairs, The only way that will happen is by governmental regulation and the OEM s will fight tooth and nail to prevent it.

Dan
I owned an electronics company that used PLCs in our products. When in development of an updated unit we found out one of our competitors was going to try to copy our design.We sanded the numbers off the chip (to make them curious) and added code that erased the chip if they tried to read it.They never were able to copy it.
Good thing the auto makers don't do this.
 

TheOldHokie

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Dealers make lots of money on service and repairs.

OEMs make little and provide parts, etc., mostly because they must.

SDT
Thats not what the dealers say but it does not change the argument. The OEM and their dealer agents are working together to suppress owner repairs and force them into using Kubota franchised service. It should be outlawed.

Dan
 
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D

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Thats not what the dealers say but it does not change the argument. The OEM and their dealer agents are working together to suppress owner repairs and force them into using Kubota franchised service. It should be outlawed.

Dan
That should test the anti trust laws.
 

TheOldHokie

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I owned an electronics company that used PLCs in our products. When in development of an updated unit we found out one of our competitors was going to try to copy our design.We sanded the numbers off the chip (to make them curious) and added code that erased the chip if they tried to read it.They never were able to copy it.
Good thing the auto makers don't do this.
But Apple does.

Dan
 

SDT

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Thats not what the dealers say but it does not change the argument. The OEM and their dealer agents are working together to suppress owner repairs and force them into using Kubota franchised service. It should be outlawed.

Dan
Argument aside, automotive manufacturers intentionally chose to avoid sales and service issues in the 20s for multiple reasons.

Not familiar with BMWs arrangement but most (all but Tesla?) OEMs maintain franchise agreements with dealers for sales and service and make little or nothing from service work done by these dealers.

I've never heard a dealer claim that OEMs make lots of money from dealer service work warranty or otherwise.

SDT
 
D

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But Apple does.

Dan
I can understand why they do. I've done open source projects and regretted every step of the way.But there is a huge difference between allowing some one to fix their own tractor and giving away the farm on software.
Allowing you to tune your car is different than stop software piracy.
 
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TheOldHokie

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I can understand why they do. I've done open source projects and regretted every step of the way.But there is a huge difference between allowing some one to fix their own tractor and giving away the farm on software.
Allowing you to tube your car is different that stop software piracy.
I think we are in full agreement especially as regards open source 🙄

Dan
 

DaveFromMi

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We used to benchmark competitors vehicles for HVAC, cooling and engine performance. Until recently, we could get CAN bus data from the OEMs "public" table. The government used some of this data to monitor emissions. They used a Consult computer. We used a canalyzer module connected to a data logger.
Now some OEMs, starting with Ford have done away with the public table. We tried to get into a newer Ford vehicle ECU and it resulted in several areas of the vehicle going into limp home mode, including no meter function. Have to say that Ford has pretty smart IT programmers. They didn't want other OEMs snooping around.
 

TheOldHokie

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More than half the internet runs on open source software. What's the problem? R u using chrome, or edge browsers?
I am using Chrome and I prefer it over Edge. I have also been coding network applications since before the internet as most people know it existed. If you are a developer forced to code against open source libraries you will find a large percentage of it is bug laden and unsupported junk.

Dan
 
D

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More than half the internet runs on open source software. What's the problem? R u using chrome, or edge browsers?
That explains why half the internet is slow and doesn't work.
 
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