Messick's talk on 303 Oil - Three Minute Thursday

[thirdroc17]

Gee imagine that, manufacturers recommending ONLY their oil, IE, more money for them, be used in their machines.

The oil may, or may not, be superior, but the main reason is profit for them.

 

[lugbolt]

I've preached on this a million times

the manuals recommend a certain fluid. IF your machine is still in warranty, and you have, say, a transmission problem, kubota (and deere) have been requesting fluid analyses. If for some reason the analysis says that a certain chemical that is present only in super udt2 or udt is not there, or in very low quantities, they can (and have) refused to repair the machine. The reasoning behind this is that when 303 or whatever fluid is used, kubota no longer has control of the lubrication, cooling, corrosion protection, seal formation, energy transfer, or cleaning properties and at that point it is not their problem. If the user had chosen super udt2, there would very likely be zero question. They'd know if the correct quantities of additives were in the fluid and at that point they're thinking "hey this guy spends a little more to take care of his stuff"....and they're much more likely to fix on their dime.

I've seen it happen. I've also seen it with fuel. Injector failure? Warranty? Fluid analysis is almost mandatory. Fail due to excessive moisture content or excessive dirt in sample? Repair is on the customer and injectors on common rail engines ain't cheap. Last I looked, about $900 each (3 or 4 of them)--plus a lot of times the rail pressure sensor is damaged, so you have to replace the rail assembly (only way to get the sensor....IIRC it's about $2100). All because the owner saved $20 on some aftermarket fuel filter that is of unknown quality. "But it came from the same factory"....might have, but mind you that factories often make a subpar product specifically made for box stores, parts stores, discount stores AND they also make a product (which is often better quality as specified) for the OEM's. Same factory.

I went through this with Yamaha. A company makes Yamaha filters for them so everybody thinks they're the same, when in fact, they're not. One's made of inferior materials and it goes to another place to be labeled with fancy colors and stuff, then sent out to discount places. Same for fluids, also went through that with Yamaha. Same place mixes up different chemicals, one specified by OEM (Yamaha in this case) and it bottled and labeled as Yamalube, and right out of the same door, another set of chemicals, which in this case didn't really play well with wet clutches, bottled and labeled with a pretty color and lots of marketing gimmicks that make you want to buy it, and then some dude gets it and sends it out for analysis and puts on his website that "it's fine" and cheaper than Yamalube. You never hear the whole story, though. The question is, was this dude a paid advertiser? Or is he brand loyal? Or????

Stick with OEM, you'll be fine every time.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Kubota UDT, Super UDT and Super UDT2 are three different products. I don't think Super UDT is sold anymore in the US, but appear to be available in Europe. Canada has Premium UDT just to add to the confusion.

https://www.kubotausa.com/parts/kubota-parts-products/lubricants says "Super UDT2" is "Fully interchangeable with standard UDT and Super UDT fluids".

I've preached on this a million times

the manuals recommend a certain fluid. IF your machine is still in warranty, and you have, say, a transmission problem, kubota (and deere) have been requesting fluid analyses. If for some reason the analysis says that a certain chemical that is present only in super udt2 or udt is not there, or in very low quantities, they can (and have) refused to repair the machine. The reasoning behind this is that when 303 or whatever fluid is used, kubota no longer has control of the lubrication, cooling, corrosion protection, seal formation, energy transfer, or cleaning properties and at that point it is not their problem. If the user had chosen super udt2, there would very likely be zero question. They'd know if the correct quantities of additives were in the fluid and at that point they're thinking "hey this guy spends a little more to take care of his stuff"....and they're much more likely to fix on their dime.

I've seen it happen. I've also seen it with fuel. Injector failure? Warranty? Fluid analysis is almost mandatory. Fail due to excessive moisture content or excessive dirt in sample? Repair is on the customer and injectors on common rail engines ain't cheap. Last I looked, about $900 each (3 or 4 of them)--plus a lot of times the rail pressure sensor is damaged, so you have to replace the rail assembly (only way to get the sensor....IIRC it's about $2100). All because the owner saved $20 on some aftermarket fuel filter that is of unknown quality. "But it came from the same factory"....might have, but mind you that factories often make a subpar product specifically made for box stores, parts stores, discount stores AND they also make a product (which is often better quality as specified) for the OEM's. Same factory.

I went through this with Yamaha. A company makes Yamaha filters for them so everybody thinks they're the same, when in fact, they're not. One's made of inferior materials and it goes to another place to be labeled with fancy colors and stuff, then sent out to discount places. Same for fluids, also went through that with Yamaha. Same place mixes up different chemicals, one specified by OEM (Yamaha in this case) and it bottled and labeled as Yamalube, and right out of the same door, another set of chemicals, which in this case didn't really play well with wet clutches, bottled and labeled with a pretty color and lots of marketing gimmicks that make you want to buy it, and then some dude gets it and sends it out for analysis and puts on his website that "it's fine" and cheaper than Yamalube. You never hear the whole story, though. The question is, was this dude a paid advertiser? Or is he brand loyal? Or????

Stick with OEM, you'll be fine every time.

There was a time when Kubota was more honest about things..

Dan

 

[GeoHorn]

Dan, you wrote “So the KUBOTA dealership told you the same thing I am saying but you insisted they were wrong. My manual has this section in it - is it missing from yours?”

Not exactly…. The Kubota dealership handed out the same thing you were saying…but I had actually READ MY MANUAL….and frankly, was surprised it was so specific….so I pointed out to them the specified Super UDT….which they still did not wish to believe… I only insisted that they get THEIR parts-guy’ opinion** supported by Kubota regional….they called Dallas and they then admitted they were wrong. My manual does NOT have the section in it yours does. My manual does NOT merely “recommend”.….it actually INSTRUCTS to use “Super UDT”. When Super UDT was superceded by Super UDT2… Kubota regional specified UDT2 as the proper substitute for Super UDT.

** The Ewald Kubota parts guy is highly opinionated on such matters and on more than one occasion I have heard him suggest aftermarket snake-oils other than what is called-for by Kubota, Stihl, and other equipment they sell. Ewald Kubota also handles some ”off-brand/generic” products they obviously sell in lieu of OEM stuff….and I have no problem with that at all, except when the mfr’r is so specific as in my M4700 OM and WSM.

I am certain that Chevron, Exxon-Mobil, Shell, and others made some fine fluids of equal quality. And I do not even have a warranty-concern (my tractor is a 1996 year model.) And I would ordinarily be in complete agreement that any other major, high-quality hyd fluid intended for tractors should be fine… except for this particular model which makes no sense yet whose manual does not contain the alternative language. It was just easier for me to use what they specify and quit worrying about it.

If only a mil-spec or other standard were used in the specification so that lubricant-suppliers and owners could be confident in their choices.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Dan, you wrote “So the KUBOTA dealership told you the same thing I am saying but you insisted they were wrong. My manual has this section in it - is it missing from yours?”

Not exactly…. The Kubota dealership handed out the same thing you were saying…but I had actually READ MY MANUAL….and frankly, was surprised it was so specific….so I pointed out to them the specified Super UDT….which they still did not wish to believe… I only insisted that they get THEIR parts-guy’ opinion** supported by Kubota regional….they called Dallas and they then admitted they were wrong. My manual does NOT have the section in it yours does. My manual does NOT merely “recommend”.….it actually INSTRUCTS to use “Super UDT”. When Super UDT was superceded by Super UDT2… Kubota regional specified UDT2 as the proper substitute for Super UDT.

** The Ewald Kubota parts guy is highly opinionated on such matters and on more than one occasion I have heard him suggest aftermarket snake-oils other than what is called-for by Kubota, Stihl, and other equipment they sell. Ewald Kubota also handles some ”off-brand/generic” products they obviously sell in lieu of OEM stuff….and I have no problem with that at all, except when the mfr’r is so specific as in my M4700 OM and WSM.

I am certain that Chevron, Exxon-Mobil, Shell, and others made some fine fluids of equal quality. And I do not even have a warranty-concern (my tractor is a 1996 year model.) And I would ordinarily be in complete agreement that any other major, high-quality hyd fluid intended for tractors should be fine… except for this particular model which makes no sense yet whose manual does not contain the alternative language. It was just easier for me to use what they specify and quit worrying about it.

If only a mil-spec or other standard were used in the specification so that lubricant-suppliers and owners could be confident in their choices.

My reading of the M4700 manual is a little different than yours. From page 44 - Fuels and Lubricants:

"To insure proper operation of the hydraulic system and proper lubrication of the transmission it is important that a multi-grade transmission oil be used"

In other words the machine requires a UTTO.

We recommend the use of Kubota Super UDT fluid for optimum protection and performance"

The use of KUBOTA Super UDT tractor transmission fluid is recommended but not required.

Consult your local KUBOTA dealer for further details

You didn't believe them when they told you all you needed was a premium UTTO.

Do not mix different brands together

If using a UTTO other than SUDT do not mix different brands.

Dan

 

[GeoHorn]

Dan, I don’t know why your perspective is so locked into “universal is OK”…especially when I’m telling you I did EXACTLY what the manual instructs: Since I initially believed as you express… I CONSULTED my Kubota dealer… whose parts-guy was MIS-informed because he believed as you do (and as I once did also) that other fluids are permissible. The fact they use the word “recommend” Super UDT …. doesn’t mean they approve any OTHER fluid except Super UDT. Their earlier statement in that paragraph telling the importance of a multi-grade fluid does NOT make approval of a “universal” fluid…. it only points out that Super UDT actually IS a multi-grade fluid…. as recommended by Kubota.
What would you expect them to say…?? …. that the use of Super UDT is “required”…?? Kubota is not a regulatory-agency with enforcement-powers over private owners of machinery. They cannot “require” anything. They also ”recommend” the use of diesel fuel…but can they prevent an owner from using peanut oil if he wants to..?? Peanut oil/Biofuel burns in diesels just fine and if an owner wants to he can….just as you can use the Tractor Supply stuff if you want to.
The problem will be that if you use the UTTO and you go back to Kubota and complain because your machine took a dump and you try to blame their parts-materials for the failure of that stuff to do as well as the Super UDT then you are likely to be laughed out the door.

We’re arguing over a minor issue. I‘ve already agreed that other refiners likely make fluids just as good as Super UDT and that the average guy might use them without difficulty. But Kubota does not approve of it.
I’m only pointing out that for the guy like myself who will likely only make ONE SINGLE 600-hour service in a lifetime of ownership that it’s easy, simple, safe, and sensible to use what Kubota will APPROVE of and specified in the manual.

Kubota approves of any major brand motor oil that meets the industry-standards for diesel engines.…not requiring the use of “Kubota brand” motor oil. But NO industry hydraulic-fluid specification is standardized/published so that alternatives to Super UDT can be determined. Solution: use what is specified in the manual… Motor oil industry standards are specified in the manual….. hydraulic fluid is also specified: just not by an industry-standard.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Dan, I don’t know why your perspective is so locked into “universal is OK”…especially when I’m telling you I did EXACTLY what the manual instructs: Since I initially believed as you express… I CONSULTED my Kubota dealer… whose parts-guy was MIS-informed because he believed as you do (and as I once did also) that other fluids are permissible. The fact they use the word “recommend” Super UDT …. doesn’t mean they approve any OTHER fluid except Super UDT. Their earlier statement in that paragraph telling the importance of a multi-grade fluid does NOT make approval of a “universal” fluid…. it only points out that Super UDT actually IS a multi-grade fluid…. as recommended by Kubota.
What would you expect them to say…?? …. that the use of Super UDT is “required”…?? Kubota is not a regulatory-agency with enforcement-powers over private owners of machinery. They cannot “require” anything. They also ”recommend” the use of diesel fuel…but can they prevent an owner from using peanut oil if he wants to..?? Peanut oil/Biofuel burns in diesels just fine and if an owner wants to he can….just as you can use the Tractor Supply stuff if you want to.
The problem will be that if you use the UTTO and you go back to Kubota and complain because your machine took a dump and you try to blame their parts-materials for the failure of that stuff to do as well as the Super UDT then you are likely to be laughed out the door.

We’re arguing over a minor issue. I‘ve already agreed that other refiners likely make fluids just as good as Super UDT and that the average guy might use them without difficulty. But Kubota does not approve of it.
I’m only pointing out that for the guy like myself who will likely only make ONE SINGLE 600-hour service in a lifetime of ownership that it’s easy, simple, safe, and sensible to use what Kubota will APPROVE of and specified in the manual.

Kubota approves of any major brand motor oil that meets the industry-standards for diesel engines.…not requiring the use of “Kubota brand” motor oil. But NO industry hydraulic-fluid specification is standardized/published so that alternatives to Super UDT can be determined. Solution: use what is specified in the manual… Motor oil industry standards are specified in the manual….. hydraulic fluid is also specified: just not by an industry-standard.

I use SUDT2 in my tractor because its one of the best UTTOs on the market and its affordable. Is that not sufficient without inventing some mythical requirement.

There is no formal standard for UTTO but the industry has a defacto standard that works perfectly well in just about every tractor ever made. Big machines with friction sensitive power shift or CVT transmissions may be an exception. They need a carefully engineered friction modifier package tailored to the machine. CUTs with HSTs are not in that class.

Dan

 

[DustyRusty]

Why is Neil's 3-minute tape just slightly over 7 minutes long? I think we should start a class action suit against Messicks to recover the value of those extra minutes that he has wasted of our time!