Messick's talk on 303 Oil - Three Minute Thursday

[Nicksacco]

Here's an interesting bit of info from Neil again.
Whodathought?

 

[TheOldHokie]

Here's an interesting bit of info from Neil again.
Whodathought?

Just about anybody who pays attention. The lawsuits have been ongoing for many years. JD303 is an ancient specification that even Deere abandoned long ago. Add to that the yellow bucket stuff is a really low end product made from leftovers and in some cases even line wash.

Do not confuse it with JD20C and JD20D which are current specifications similar to UDT and SUDT2.

Dan

 

[85Hokie]

Great video on all oils are NOT the same ............. and as I have said several times here, why buy the cheap stuff for your new 20+K tractor? (or for those that have those 100k tractors!)

And as Neil mentioned - Just because the manufacture of brand "X" says it works for brand "Y" - does not been bo-diddlie ..... them thar are just words!!!!

He also mentioned, engine oils are built are a common type of "engine" - not to say all diesels are the same - but the all diesel oils need to handle the by products of the burning of diesel. Where as hydraulic oils all do the same pushing and pulling on cylinders - those little pathways in the HST drives are NOT the same.

 

[GeoHorn]

This strikes me as a “which came first, the chicken or the egg?” situation.
Engines are designed to utilize the commonly available and distributed lubricating oils that the industry has settled-upon. Refiners know what to produce….Engine mfr’s know what to design-for.
Kubota (and others) often produce their engines for other purposes (i.e. marine, stationary, etc.)…. so they will all use an industry-standardized lubricating oil.

Hydraulic oils for hydraulic equipment using cylinders etc. are similar…and can use standardized fluids….but not in all cases for such things as HSTs.

Few HSTs are applicable to other purposes than the machine to which they are intended.
There are standards for hydraulic oils which HST mfr’s can design-to…. and there are mfr’s who have their own ideas for specialized designs …which do not accept the most-common hydraulic-oils …but which require specialized oils which the mfr’r specifies….some of which are “proprietary.”

Use something else at your own risk.

 

[TheOldHokie]

This strikes me as a “which came first, the chicken or the egg?” situation.
Engines are designed to utilize the commonly available and distributed lubricating oils that the industry has settled-upon. Refiners know what to produce….Engine mfr’s know what to design-for.
Kubota (and others) often produce their engines for other purposes (i.e. marine, stationary, etc.)…. so they will all use an industry-standardized lubricating oil.

Hydraulic oils for hydraulic equipment using cylinders etc. are similar…and can use standardized fluids….but not in all cases for such things as HSTs.

Few HSTs are applicable to other purposes than the machine to which they are intended.
There are standards for hydraulic oils which HST mfr’s can design-to…. and there are mfr’s who have their own ideas for specialized designs …which do not accept the most-common hydraulic-oils …but which require specialized oils which the mfr’r specifies….some of which are “proprietary.”

Use something else at your own risk.

These transmissions do not require specialized oils and OEMs including Kubota do not make such an extravagant claim.

Dan

 

[GeoHorn]

Are we on the same frequency today? Kubota makes several machines that specify “Super UDT2”.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Are we on the same frequency today? Kubota makes several machines that specify “Super UDT2”.

We are not on the same frequency at all.

Kubota promotes the use of Super UDT2 just like JD promotes Hygard and CNH promotes Ultraction. But nowhere have I seen any published requirement for the use of Super UDT2. Here are the exact words from the Kubota owners manual for my brand new L3901 - emphasis in bold is mine.

Transmission Oil:

KUBOTA Super UDT-2 For an enhanced ownership experience we highly recommend Super UDT-2 be used instead of standard hydraulic/transmission fluid.

Super UDT-2 is a proprietary KUBOTA formulation that provides superior performance and protection in all conditions

Reqular UDT is also permitted for this machine

I use Super UDT2 because I understand what it is and why Kubota believes it outperforms regular UDT. I have read the datasheets and Kubota's development reports and they confirm the claims. It is a high performance synthetic oil with properties that standard hydraulic/transmission fluid cannot match and I have no problem paying for the superior performance. Ultraction or Hygard would offer similar perfomance but at the same or higher cost

UDT is a different animal with lower performance very much in line with any number of competing oils but it is still acceptable for use according to Kubota. The difference when using UDT (or by inference a generic equivalent) seems to be my owner experience will be less "enhanced". In other words cold weather startup will be harder, operation will be noisier, wet brake/clutch chatter may increase, and I may see an increase in water contamination. But the transmission is still warranted just as if I used Super UDT2.

Dan

 

[Mark_BX25D]

Kubota promotes the use of Super UDT2 just like JD promotes Hygard and CNH promotes Ultraction. But nowhere have I seen any published requirement for the use of Super UDT2.

Exactly. Anyone who thinks that anything other than Kubota-branded fluid will destroy your tractor, or even shorten its life, is a guzzler of orange Kool-Aid.

There is no mystery and there is no magic in this stuff. Run something that meets the specs and you are good to go.

My local TSC manager is a working farmer and has run TSC oil in all her Kubotas for more than a decade with zero problems.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Exactly. Anyone who thinks that anything other than Kubota-branded fluid will destroy your tractor, or even shorten its life, is a guzzler of orange Kool-Aid.

There is no mystery and there is no magic in this stuff. Run something that meets the specs and you are good to go.

My local TSC manager is a working farmer and has run TSC oil in all her Kubotas for more than a decade with zero problems.

Please don't mischaracterize what I said.

I do believe SUDT2 outperforms a conventional UTTO like TSC sells. The data are quite clear on that.

I also believe it will provide some marginal benefit to the service life of the machine. The data on that are harder to quantify and a decade is probably a little short of the time needed to demonstrate any difference,.

My (and probably Kubota's) reasoning here is the same as my preference for a synthetic engine oil. The laboratory testing of the lubricants demonstrate the difference in performance. We know that improved performance in those tests equates to longer service life but quantifying that service life improvement in well controlled field tests is a lot more difficult and expensive.

All that said you know you are getting a good quality oil with UDT/SUDT2. Generic UTTO's are a different matter. Some are quite good and some are piss poor. Very few can compare with SUDT2,. If you are going to use something other than a Kubota branded transmission oil you better know how to research the oil and understand the performance characteristics listed in the data sheets.

Unfortunately the industry has not seen fit to standardize testing and labeling of tractor oils in the same way they did with engine and gear oils. Part of that is because tractor transmissions and oils are a lot simpler and part of it is the blenders don't want to be burdened with the testing and licensing expense that comes with independent certifications. It also means the consumer has to be a lot more knowledgeable and do their homework.

Dan

 

[torch]

I would think it hard for Kubota to require SUDT-2 in all their machines when they don't sell SUDT-2 or an equivalent outside the US, but they sell the same machines worldwide. It wouldn't take much of a lawyer to tear giant holes in any claim that other oils will cause harm to Kubota equipment when Kubota themselves sell other oils for the same equipment in other markets.

 

[GeoHorn]

I agree that there may be other fluids that may operate just fine in most Kubota equipment…
But MY M4700 Kubota Owner’s Manual is pretty specific…Here’s two screen shots directly from the manual:

 

[TheOldHokie]

I would think it hard for Kubota to require SUDT-2 in all their machines...

So hard the don't even try. he community does it for them.

I agree that there may be other fluids that may operate just fine in most Kubota equipment…
But MY M4700 Kubota Owner’s Manual is pretty specific…Here’s two screen shots directly from the manual:
View attachment 70900 View attachment 70901

 

[GeoHorn]

So hard the don't even try. he community does it for them.

Dan, I didn’t do anything for them. Those screenshots are KUBOTAs instructions.

<edit >When I got ready to do the 600 hr service on my M4700DT I went to the local Kubota Dealer (Ewalds) and asked for supplies. They first sold me UDT despite the clear instructions to use Super UDT. I queried the parts and service mgr’s very clearly and they were FIRM…that UDT or a UDT-compatible they also sold …was what should go into my tractor.
I’m not a “KoolAid” drinker so I was fine with that ….until I read the manual and the WSM specific to my model… and took the generic stuff back to them…and they again did their best to convince me to use what they’d already sold me….they said they’d show me it was OK and call the Kubota regional office up in Dallas…. when they returned to the parts counter with their hat in their hand and sheepishly took back the generic stuff and handed me the Super UDT2 and even discounted it very sharply to apologize.
YMMV

 

[TheOldHokie]

I agree that there may be other fluids that may operate just fine in most Kubota equipment…
But MY M4700 Kubota Owner’s Manual is pretty specific…Here’s two screen shots directly from the manual:
View attachment 70900 View attachment 70901

Kubota promotes the use of Super UDT2 at every turn. Hardly surprising - it is their proprietary formulation and superior to almost everything else including their own UDT, The service section and lubricants table in my manual is exactly the same as yours but the notes section that follows the lubricants table is more specific. Is that bit missing from your manual? Does it not say UDT is also acceptable in the fuels and lubricants notes?

Dan

 

[GeoHorn]

Kubota promotes the use of Super UDT2 at every turn. Hardly surprising - it is their proprietary formulation and superior to almost everything else including their own UDT, The service section and lubricants table in my manual is exactly the same as yours but the notes section that follows the lubricants table is more specific. Is that bit missing from your manual? Does it not say UDT is also acceptable in the fuels and lubricants notes?

Dan

My manual does NOT allow UDT. It is specific…exactly as the screen shots show. (see my edited comments which were being posted as you replied.)

What is even more nuts….. my tractor is a gear-transmission! I would have thought it would operate on baby-butt-oil if I poured it in!

 

[TheOldHokie]

Dan, I didn’t do anything for them. Those screenshots are KUBOTAs instructions.

<edit >When I got ready to do the 600 hr service on my M4700DT I went to the local Kubota Dealer (Ewalds) and asked for supplies. They first sold me UDT despite the clear instructions to use Super UDT. I queried the parts and service mgr’s very clearly and they were FIRM…that UDT or a UDT-compatible they also sold …was what should go into my tractor.
I’m not a “KoolAid” drinker so I was fine with that ….until I read the manual and the WSM specific to my model… and took the generic stuff back to them…and they again did their best to convince me to use what they’d already sold me….they said they’d show me it was OK and call the Kubota regional office up in Dallas…. when they returned to the parts counter with their hat in their hand and sheepishly took back the generic stuff and handed me the Super UDT2 and even discounted it very sharply to apologize.
YMMV

So the KUBOTA dealership told you the same thing I am saying but you insisted they were wrong. My manual has this section in it - is it missing from yours?

Dan

 

[Hkb82]

Neil just had to get the oil debate going once again lol. Must be slow on content with equipment being so sparse. That 303 isn’t anything new.
I’ve always just stick to the manuals recommendations on oils. Not sure why someone would try and save a few bucks literally by using something else. I’m a pinch or if unavailable and you need an alternative I get that also
I’m always down to save money when I can but you got to pick and choose the right spots to save it. If your looking to save some cash you could sell and buy a new Holland. They love claiming lower cost of ownership on videos. I always get a chuckle out of it. How less maintenance could be a better thing for the tractor beats me. I guess it’s better on my wallet until I pop the motor outa warranty and wonder in my head was it me being cheap or unavoidable. I’m not saying running a different oil you’ll blow or cause any more damage then normal oem recommended. I’d just rather save a few bucks elsewhere and not have to think about it.

New Holland makes some nice tractors so please don’t shoot me I just think that claim sounds so dumb.

 

[ruger1980]

Kubota | Lubricant & Grease Maintenance Schedule

Browse our Oil and Grease Maintenance guide for equipment lubrication involving grease and oil for Kubota's products. Learn more with Kubota service support.

www.kubotausa.com

This is the most current table of lubricants for Kubota equipment. Operators manuals are notoriously out of date and one should always refer to the latest online recommendations.
Notice I stated recommendations as Kubota cannot mandate the use of a specific oil in their machines. They can only mandate it meet certain requirements. Even Kubota states "recommended".

 

[TheOldHokie]

Kubota | Lubricant & Grease Maintenance Schedule

Browse our Oil and Grease Maintenance guide for equipment lubrication involving grease and oil for Kubota's products. Learn more with Kubota service support.

www.kubotausa.com

This is the most current table of lubricants for Kubota equipment. Operators manuals are notoriously out of date and one should always refer to the latest inline recommendations.
Notice I stated recommendations as Kubota cannot mandate the use of a specific oil in their machines. They can only mandate it meet certain requirements. Even Kubota states "recommended".

I just wanted to highlight a very important sentence in that post.

Dan

 

[kreuss]

Kubota UDT, Super UDT and Super UDT2 are three different products. I don't think Super UDT is sold anymore in the US, but appear to be available in Europe. Canada has Premium UDT just to add to the confusion.

https://www.kubotausa.com/parts/kubota-parts-products/lubricants says "Super UDT2" is "Fully interchangeable with standard UDT and Super UDT fluids".