How to deal with liars

[Jchonline]

In fairness, jchonline seems to be reasonable so far. He's entitled to his view as much as I'm entitled to mine. Someone that expresses an opposite view shouldn't be totally trashed, especially on a nice forum about Kubota tractors. However, I have no problem with people strongly expressing emotion and opinion, especially when it relates to personal freedoms. And yes, if you become offended, you can always get off the thread. Censorship is never the answer.

Ill remind everyone who signed up for these forums as Henro did the other day.
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Evening folks,

Vic and I like to kid around a lot and not take things too seriously. We encourage off topic discussion here and lighthearted jokes and fun but this Off Topic forum is not one of those "anything goes" locations on the internet.

Please keep your postings:
* free of jokes or humor which are more than PG-13 in nature
* free of racial, political and religious commentary
* free of pictures of videos which are sexual in nature, depict nudity or show violence against other human beings or animals

We want OrangeTractorTalks to remain accessible and approachable to folks around the world. It should be a welcoming and warm community of individuals who share a common passion for the best orange machine out there. To achieve this, we need you to use your best judgement when posting in the Off Topic forum.

As always, thank you for visiting OrangeTractorTalks! We appreciate you stopping by to take a look.

Mr. K

Rules of Conduct and Etiquette

Evening folks, Vic and I like to kid around a lot and not take things too seriously. We encourage off topic discussion here and lighthearted jokes and fun but this Off Topic forum is not one of those "anything goes" locations on the internet. Please keep your postings: * free of jokes or humor...

www.orangetractortalks.com

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So its being censored by the admins already. If you dont agree then take it up with them.

 

[William1]

Fair warning if this becomes a COVID rant it will be reported to the admins. @troverman I have no issue with your post or the topic, but as of late these COVID discussions quickly get political and people get nasty with each other. If this heads that way I am reporting it. I also think your thread title is questionable. You maybe saying politicians are liars, but are you calling family, friends, and anyone that has different beliefs than you about COVID a liar? Please clarify.

As someone in the medical field I have the opposite issue as you. I have a niece that is legally old enough to get the vaccine, but her mother (a mechanical engineer) thinks there are some long term fertility risks. Im not getting into my thoughts on it, but needless to say she thinks she is correct.

What I do is just change the subject when she brings up COVID related stuff. We both know neither will budge on the stance. So I just talk about something else and she gets the hint. I do this with neighbors and other folks as well. Just change the subject.


Also Ford diesels rock! (see this is changing the subject)

Simply state :
"You are entitled to your own opinons. However, I am entitled to not have to listen to them.
I will respect you having different opinions from me, I'd appreciate it if you would respect me to not have to listen to your opinions"

 

[Deleted member 47704]

 

[Deleted member 47704]

Ill remind everyone who signed up for these forums as Henro did the other day.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evening folks,

Vic and I like to kid around a lot and not take things too seriously. We encourage off topic discussion here and lighthearted jokes and fun but this Off Topic forum is not one of those "anything goes" locations on the internet.

Please keep your postings:
* free of jokes or humor which are more than PG-13 in nature
* free of racial, political and religious commentary
* free of pictures of videos which are sexual in nature, depict nudity or show violence against other human beings or animals

We want OrangeTractorTalks to remain accessible and approachable to folks around the world. It should be a welcoming and warm community of individuals who share a common passion for the best orange machine out there. To achieve this, we need you to use your best judgement when posting in the Off Topic forum.

As always, thank you for visiting OrangeTractorTalks! We appreciate you stopping by to take a look.

Mr. K

Rules of Conduct and Etiquette

Evening folks, Vic and I like to kid around a lot and not take things too seriously. We encourage off topic discussion here and lighthearted jokes and fun but this Off Topic forum is not one of those "anything goes" locations on the internet. Please keep your postings: * free of jokes or humor...

www.orangetractortalks.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So its being censored by the admins already. If you dont agree then take it up with them.

No one likes a back seat moderator.

 

[jimh406]

This is bull. I am censoring myself as well. I dont get to have my points then silence yours.

This is not about the admins. They can delete or lock whatever they want for any reason. I think most of us are ok with that and know the rules.

This is about you making sure that they have a “problem” to deal with. As far as censoring yourself regarding your Covid points goes, we can see your points everywhere else that don’t allow all of the other points. So yes, this is censorship of the views you don’t agree with. It’s ok though. I’m here primarily for the tractor talk, so a Karen or two that prevents other discussions isn’t really a big deal for me.

 

[fried1765]

People that simply repeat talking points they hear from their favorite media are by default, liars, whether intentional or not. Perhaps it was a bad title to this post. I guess I was thinking of the obnoxious guy hating on the Ford truck in my example.

Here's a common one, sure to draw ire: "The vaccines have proven to be safe and effective."

Define safe and effective. Some people have actually died after taking the shot. Certainly the family of those people will not believe the shot is safe. Many have suffered side effects. A portion of those will not feel the shot is safe. Proponents will downplay and attempt to conceal these reactions to the shot. Opponents will make a big deal about these reactions and perhaps overreact. Finally, after not even a year on the market, it is hard to make the claim "safe." Nobody knows what long term health effects may be discovered down the road. Look up the interesting story of the "Radium Girls," about women during the WWI era in the US who used highly toxic, radioactive radium paint to paint the dials of watches and instruments so they would glow at night. Of course the women had no idea how bad the radium was, and most of the public had been told it was actually beneficial to health. It wasn't until some time had passed after their employment ended that the horrible health effects were felt, including loss of entire jaw bones, cancer, and death for many. Lastly, define "effective." We were initially told once we had the shot, we'd be immune and could not spread the virus...hence why it was critical for everyone to get it. Later, we learned that wasn't true...we could get it, and spread it. See the TX democrats who flew, unmasked, to DC to avoid forming a quorum so a bill couldn't pass. They were all vaccinated, but many became infected, as did some white house staffers. So then we were simply left with "it helps make sure you don't die if you get it." Well, that's great, but offers no reason why there should be any mandates. And now we learn that over a period of time, the vax loses efficacy...as much as 50% in 6 months. We've learned that the vaccinated, when infected, carry a higher viral load than the unvaccinated. So all these things certainly imply the vaccines are not as effective as we'd like.

And then there was Thalidomine!

Many here on TBN are to young to have even heard of it.
Developed in the 1950's in then West Germany, as a sedative (especially for pregnant women), and touted as a wonder drug!

Removed from the market in November of 1961.
After 2000 dead, and 10,000 birth defects!

 

[Jchonline]

And then there was Thalidomine!

Many here on TBN are to young to have even heard of it.
Developed in the 1950's in then West Germany, as a sedative (especially for pregnant women), and touted as a wonder drug!

Removed from the market in November of 1961.
After 2000 dead, and 10,000 birth defects!

Fried thalidomide is on the market in the US. It was re-introduced a number of years ago for certain types of cancer and has been very successful in treating them. It is much more tightly regulated by the FDA, but still used daily. In fact there is even a few additional similar agents (with the same negative effects on a fetus) on the market today. Thalidomide, lenalidomide, and pomalidomide are all used for Multiple Myeloma.

So I suppose we needed to destroy 10000 lives to save tens of thousands. Not saying I agree with the initial deaths (terrible indeed), but at least something good eventually happened with the drugs.

 

[Jchonline]

This is not about the admins. They can delete or lock whatever they want for any reason. I think most of us are ok with that and know the rules.

This is about you making sure that they have a “problem” to deal with. As far as censoring yourself regarding your Covid points goes, we can see your points everywhere else that don’t allow all of the other points. So yes, this is censorship of the views you don’t agree with. It’s ok though. I’m here primarily for the tractor talk, so a Karen or two that prevents other discussions isn’t really a big deal for me.

If someone posted about how stupid unvaccinated people were I would report it just the same, so you are incorrect Sir. Its about making sure we honor the original agreement when creating accounts on this forum. That agreement includes following the rules. Those rules include no political commentary. Can we get back to tractors please?

 

[Steppenwolfe]

Imagine inviting some friends over to your place for a nice dinner and gathering, and you're all out on the deck. Some loudmouth who came with someone else notices your brand new Super Duty truck sitting in the driveway and promptly begins to "educate" you on why you made the worst possible choice in pickup trucks. He's a Chevy guy and has heard all the talking points about why your truck is no good. "It's not safe, its made from old beer cans." "Ford diesels are total junk, they have been since the 6.0 liter." "The only reason Ford sells the most is because almost all their sales are to fleets, because they are the cheapest."

Now imagine this type of discussion on something more serious, like Covid. Only the annoying guy nobody knows is the media and government. You know the reasons they give are not always accurate, and almost always are skewed to an agenda. You know they aren't being honest. So how do you deal with this situation?

Some of my "friends" think entirely opposite to me. They tell me they are "afraid" of me because I won't take the vaccine and never wear a mask unless I am absolutely forced. They believe completely in what they hear, and they only view specific media which tends to reinforce their views. Yet I still care about these people, and wish them the best. I understand their hostility comes from fear, which is a powerful motivator to ignore logic and science.

What are your thoughts on dealing with friends and family who think this way, or even the general public that we interact with?

I'm firmly in the camp of a free people that gets to make their own decisions. I believe in that old saying of "he who trades liberty for security will have neither." I believe relinquishing freedoms now means they are almost impossible to get back in the future.

Don't worry... you'll not have any friends after you get Covid and die; and you'll continue enjoying that liberty during the entirety of your dirt nap... Great choice !

 

[Deleted member 47704]

If someone posted about how stupid unvaccinated people were I would report it just the same, so you are incorrect Sir. Its about making sure we honor the original agreement when creating accounts on this forum. That agreement includes following the rules. Those rules include no political commentary. Can we get back to tractors please?

Its not up to you enforce it and you are continuing to derail the topic of this thread.Why don't you get back to tractors, leave the guys alone and stop talking about drugs.

 

[NHSleddog]

How to deal with liars. - Pointing it out doesn't always work - ROFLMAO.

Funny Story.

So I was helping out a couple that are new to the neighborhood a few months ago with some brush and a couple stumps in the yard.

They were in and out all day and she was setting up the yard. She had put out a nice flag about "No Room For Hate In This House" and another one about believing in science. Now these I find funny in a Bizzaroworld kind of way.

I was getting ready to leave she was thanking me for the help I said "no problem. So you are new in town?" She said yes they just moved up from NY (this is unfortunate news to a native).
So I said (derisively) crazy times huh, what did you think of that Trump guy?"

She went on a minute long tirade with the word hate in it at least a dozen times. So I look right at the "No Hate" sign she just put on her lawn and then right back at her and said "seems like there is plenty of room for hate in the house". All red faced she said that is different.

I said hey, just kidding, but really, do you think boys can be girls? She looked confused by the segway then said what does that have to do with anything? Then she started talking about binary something and scales, not sure how she finished, I was getting back on the tractor and she was fading fast.

I get back to the house and the wife gives me a big fat kiss for helping out and I told her the story and not to expect any invites to Karens parties. I got a punch to go with my kiss .

The Lying sign is still there.

 

[aaluck]

Please keep your postings:
* free of jokes or humor which are more than PG-13 in nature
* free of racial, political and religious commentary
* free of pictures of videos which are sexual in nature, depict nudity or show violence against other human beings or animals

Discussing the single biggest issue to face our great nation since 1918 does not violate any of this. Furthermore it needs to be discussed freely

 

[NCL4701]

Not sure what exactly the topic really is, however in response to the original question based on a strict denotative reading of the title of the thread, at least for me there are two distinct answers.

1) In a personal scenario, I separate myself from them. There is no foundation for a potentially healthy relationship without honesty so, even if they’re family, until they repent to reliable veracity, there is no relationship at all as I am past the stage of life where I willingly accept the burden of unhealthy relationships.

2) In a professional scenario, usually a local Assistant District Attorney is consulted on the charges appropriate for the specific scenario.

Either way, not much use for liars.

In the personal scenario, the next point is quite important. In the professional scenario, it is absolutely imperative.

There is a difference between liars and people who espouse falsehoods in good faith but are simply incorrect, regardless of how glaring, egregious, or apparently inexplicable their error may be.

In regard to COVID response, politics, and a handful of other topics where entrenchments have been constructed and both sides seem to be too far apart to shake hands but close enough to lob mortar rounds at each other, I have long been glad to discuss and debate in person so long as it doesn’t devolve into mindless name calling. But, while acknowledging the possibility of its existence, anecdotally I can say with great confidence I have never seen a thread on social media of any ilk where someone was actually persuaded to the position opposite their initial position. Which is the precise reason I don’t choose to participate in threads about strongly divisive issues. Just isn’t productive.

 

[Deleted member 47704]

Discussing the single biggest issue to face our great nation since 1918 does not violate any of this. Furthermore it needs to be discussed freely

Problem is it turns political because people on either side of topic claim the other side is lying.

 

[Jchonline]

People that simply repeat talking points they hear from their favorite media are by default, liars, whether intentional or not. Perhaps it was a bad title to this post. I guess I was thinking of the obnoxious guy hating on the Ford truck in my example.

Here's a common one, sure to draw ire: "The vaccines have proven to be safe and effective."

Define safe and effective. Some people have actually died after taking the shot. Certainly the family of those people will not believe the shot is safe. Many have suffered side effects. A portion of those will not feel the shot is safe. Proponents will downplay and attempt to conceal these reactions to the shot. Opponents will make a big deal about these reactions and perhaps overreact. Finally, after not even a year on the market, it is hard to make the claim "safe." Nobody knows what long term health effects may be discovered down the road. Look up the interesting story of the "Radium Girls," about women during the WWI era in the US who used highly toxic, radioactive radium paint to paint the dials of watches and instruments so they would glow at night. Of course the women had no idea how bad the radium was, and most of the public had been told it was actually beneficial to health. It wasn't until some time had passed after their employment ended that the horrible health effects were felt, including loss of entire jaw bones, cancer, and death for many. Lastly, define "effective." We were initially told once we had the shot, we'd be immune and could not spread the virus...hence why it was critical for everyone to get it. Later, we learned that wasn't true...we could get it, and spread it. See the TX democrats who flew, unmasked, to DC to avoid forming a quorum so a bill couldn't pass. They were all vaccinated, but many became infected, as did some white house staffers. So then we were simply left with "it helps make sure you don't die if you get it." Well, that's great, but offers no reason why there should be any mandates. And now we learn that over a period of time, the vax loses efficacy...as much as 50% in 6 months. We've learned that the vaccinated, when infected, carry a higher viral load than the unvaccinated. So all these things certainly imply the vaccines are not as effective as we'd like.

Lots of good thoughts here Troverman.

First, there is no drug on the planet that is put into a Human body that doesn’t have a side effect in some percentage of the population. People have died from Tylenol, Advil, cough syrup, you name it. It doesn’t mean they are “unsafe” or “ineffective”. Dont take my word for it, look at the study done on acetaminophen last year yourself.

Acetaminophen Toxicity - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Safe is a quantitative threshold that medical experts have put in place to gauge use in the general population. We use this threshold for every drug that the FDA has approved in this country. We have for decades, the COVID vaccines are no different. There is nothing crazy going on there, the drug companies did the appropriate Phase 1, 2 trials to prove this to the FDA, as any other drug requires. I do understand they accelerated timeline concerns, but feel given the potential to bring the US healthcare system to its knees.

Medical science is an amazing field. Doctors and trained professionals are going to get it wrong some of the time. Let me ask this, who do you want telling you how to build a rocket to fly to Mars…a rocket scientist or a medical doctor? Of course it’s rhetorical, but the same goes for trusting medical professionals. They aren’t going to get it right 100% of the time, but it is going to be much better than getting medical advice from rocket scientist. If you don’t feel that way in general (some on this forum do not trust medical professionals) then I do understand. Practically though….having a non-medical professional try to debate the benefits/risks of a vaccine with someone that has read hundreds of primary, peer reviewed literature is not really practical. We have read many articles, see patients in the ICU/hospital on a weekly basis, are involved in their care directly/indirectly, and have been trained to interpret statistical analysis and study design. It doesn’t mean I am going to get it right 100% of the time,…its medicine. The reason we say medical “practice” is because with biology it may be just that…practice. We are learning all the time, we evolve, we get better.

There has been a lot of miscommunication regarding the vaccine by the government. Didn’t help we had a change of regime during the pandemic. The CDC has done a poor job in my opinion. I dont have much confidence in them either. Social distancing was proven to be a joke, yet we spent BILLIONS of dollars across the US rearranging tables/workspace to accommodate 6 feet of spacing. Masking while beneficial if done properly (proper mask, proper face seal) has been a mixed bag and depends on the reliability/material of the person wearing it. Overall studies show masking has benefit to reducing airborne pathogen transmission. During a pandemic studies that isolate masking with no confounding variables are hard to design and monitor. Population health studies of this nature have never been tackled before, certainly not in the last 100 years. We are learning everyday. What we do know is the vaccine is safe and effective. Not because the CDC says so, but because the majority of the collective medical community in the world has studied it and published peer reviewed data to show it is.

With regards to the effectiveness of the vaccine, all I look at is burden on the healthcare system. As long as our ICU and critical infrastructure remains open for those non-COVID patients that need it, we are good. What we know is the vaccine keeps all but very old and immunocompromised out of the hospital. This is a very important metric. In Colorado at UC Health, 200 of 246 patients in the ICU were unvaccinated. Of the 46 that were vaccinated, almost all (98%) had comorbidities that made them susceptible to COVID, or were over 75. In Colorado we have around a 60% vaccination rate. A COVID patient is 4 times (in medicine this is huge, we often deal with 10% or 20%, not 400%) more likely to have very severe illness if unvaccinated. The data doesn’t lie or pick sides.

The last point of irony I will make is those folks that are ok with taking ivermectin, REGEN-COV, or other immunotherapies when they get COVID. While I would also consider these treatment options, they are far, far less studied than the vaccine. Why would anyone be ok with these drugs but not with of the most scrutinized vaccines in modern history is difficult for me to understand.

 

[Jchonline]

Discussing the single biggest issue to face our great nation since 1918 does not violate any of this. Furthermore it needs to be discussed freely

What? COVID is just a government conspiracy plot to exert control over the populous and remove our freedoms right?

 

[NCL4701]

Lots of good thoughts here Troverman.

First, there is no drug on the planet that is put into a Human body that doesn’t have a side effect in some percentage of the population. People have died from Tylenol, Advil, cough syrup, you name it. It doesn’t mean they are “unsafe” or “ineffective”. Dont take my word for it, look at the study done on acetaminophen last year yourself.

Acetaminophen Toxicity - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Safe is a quantitative threshold that medical experts have put in place to gauge use in the general population. We use this threshold for every drug that the FDA has approved in this country. We have for decades, the COVID vaccines are no different. There is nothing crazy going on there, the drug companies did the appropriate Phase 1, 2 trials to prove this to the FDA, as any other drug requires. I do understand they accelerated timeline concerns, but feel given the potential to bring the US healthcare system to its knees.

Medical science is an amazing field. Doctors and trained professionals are going to get it wrong some of the time. Let me ask this, who do you want telling you how to build a rocket to fly to Mars…a rocket scientist or a medical doctor? Of course it’s rhetorical, but the same goes for trusting medical professionals. They aren’t going to get it right 100% of the time, but it is going to be much better than getting medical advice from rocket scientist. If you don’t feel that way in general (some on this forum do not trust medical professionals) then I do understand. Practically though….having a non-medical professional try to debate the benefits/risks of a vaccine with someone that has read hundreds of primary, peer reviewed literature is not really practical. We have read many articles, see patients in the ICU/hospital on a weekly basis, are involved in their care directly/indirectly, and have been trained to interpret statistical analysis and study design. It doesn’t mean I am going to get it right 100% of the time,…its medicine. The reason we say medical “practice” is because with biology it may be just that…practice. We are learning all the time, we evolve, we get better.

There has been a lot of miscommunication regarding the vaccine by the government. Didn’t help we had a change of regime during the pandemic. The CDC has done a poor job in my opinion. I dont have much confidence in them either. Social distancing was proven to be a joke, yet we spent BILLIONS of dollars across the US rearranging tables/workspace to accommodate 6 feet of spacing. Masking while beneficial if done properly (proper mask, proper face seal) has been a mixed bag and depends on the reliability/material of the person wearing it. Overall studies show masking has benefit to reducing airborne pathogen transmission. During a pandemic studies that isolate masking with no confounding variables are hard to design and monitor. Population health studies of this nature have never been tackled before, certainly not in the last 100 years. We are learning everyday. What we do know is the vaccine is safe and effective. Not because the CDC says so, but because the majority of the collective medical community in the world has studied it and published peer reviewed data to show it is.

With regards to the effectiveness of the vaccine, all I look at is burden on the healthcare system. As long as our ICU and critical infrastructure remains open for those non-COVID patients that need it, we are good. What we know is the vaccine keeps all but very old and immunocompromised out of the hospital. This is a very important metric. In Colorado at UC Health, 200 of 246 patients in the ICU were unvaccinated. Of the 46 that were vaccinated, almost all (98%) had comorbidities that made them susceptible to COVID, or were over 75. In Colorado we have around a 60% vaccination rate. A COVID patient is 4 times (in medicine this is huge, we often deal with 10% or 20%, not 400%) more likely to have very severe illness if unvaccinated. The data doesn’t lie or pick sides.

The last point of irony I will make is those folks that are ok with taking ivermectin, COV-REGEN, or other immunotherapies when they get COVID. While I would also consider these treatment options, they are far, far less studied than the vaccine. Why would anyone be ok with these drugs but not with of the most scrutinized vaccines in modern history is difficult for me to understand.

From the standpoint of a non-medical person that is a pretty good summary of the good and bad of the medical response. Probably the most reasonable thing I’ve seen in a while from someone who sounds like they actually have a clue what they’re talking about and have some real expertise.

I would really like to simply trust medical experts. Some of what we are told is obviously self contradictory to the point that it’s pretty difficult to buy into regardless how impressive the CV of the person saying it may be.

For example, in the county where my main office is located, at the behest of local medical experts, our local government mandated we wear masks when inside any business, with an exception for restaurants and bars. So if I’m sitting in the office completely alone at 6:00 and I’m not wearing a mask, I’m committing a misdemeanor punishable by fines which increase with subsequent violations. The business can also be fined for first violation and shut down for repeat offenses. When I leave the office for breakfast or lunch, I can go to a restaurant and sit down inside shoulder to shoulder with strangers with no mask while everyone talks, coughs, etc. before they get their food, of course while they’re eating, and after they’re done eating. Then when I go back to the office where I’m in a room by myself with no one within 30’, I have to put the mask back on under penalty of law. After work I can go to a restaurant or bar and again hang out shoulder to shoulder for hours with strangers with no mask. Vaccine status has no impact on any of these rules.

I’m not a medical expert but based on what we’re told here, I don’t need a vaccine, I need to eat and drink continually. The only explanation is “follow the science” with no explanation of what exactly “the science” is that led to these laws. It’s like “science” is now God and the county commissioners are priests that tell us what “science” says but we can’t be allowed to know what the basis of that “science” is.

So as a non-expert what exactly am I supposed to believe from medical experts that decide I’m to wear a mask in a room by myself but can be unmasked in a room full of others even when not actually eating so long as someone in the room is eating? What am I supposed to believe from a medical expert who says that one mask is good but wearing two would be better, like the majority of the population could even breathe with two masks? What am I supposed to believe about masking and distancing in the stay at home order days when only essential workers were allowed out to work (which included me) subject to masking, distancing, etc. under threat of criminal prosecution (and although I never had to produce them, I did have to carry paperwork documenting that I had the right to be out on the road), but our Governor was out marching unmasked with protestors in large groups who were openly unmasked, not distancing, and the police were told to leave them alone? As a non-expert what am I supposed to believe when the experts tell us when vaccination levels reach some percentage we can go back to pre-COVID norms but when we hit those targets nothing changed at all? “Two months to flatten the curve” has turned into what looks more and more like a permanent situation.

As an admittedly non-expert what exactly am I to conclude to be a reasonable course of action based on these incongruent positions from both the government and the medical experts they allegedly rely upon?

People make mistakes. In an unexpected and developing situation the response will change as things develop. After a sufficient amount of incorrect information it results in loss of credibility whether it’s because the source is a liar or they’re simply incompetent or they’re opining authoritatively on a subject that no one (including them) truly understands. Regardless of the reasons, there are some quite credible authorities and agencies who have pissed away at least some of their credibility through this.

By the way I am vaccinated with the J&J and have been for quite a while. Haven’t had COVID. Know many that have, some very mild, two died, one long term damage.

I don’t expect any answer to any of that. Just kind of the flip side from a non-medical perspective. Between the government AND the medical community the messages have been a mess so not particularly surprising even those listening to the “experts” have a hard time believing whatever they happen to be saying today.

Edit: BTW, there seem to be a bunch of people that seem to think they’ve got all this figured out. I’m not one of them and the only person dumber than me on this subject would be anyone who took advice from me on it. I got the vaccine to be able to accompany my elderly father to medical appointments as it was (and still is) required for non-patient entry at most medical facilities here. If they’d injecting me with saline and gave me the damn card, would have been fine with me. So far it’s worked just swell. I’ve had a much better life than I’ve deserved and if I’m dead next week, I’ve got no right to be upset about any of it.

 

[D2Cat]

Lots of good thoughts here Troverman.

First, there is no drug on the planet that is put into a Human body that doesn’t have a side effect in some percentage of the population. People have died from Tylenol, Advil, cough syrup, you name it. It doesn’t mean they are “unsafe” or “ineffective”. Dont take my word for it, look at the study done on acetaminophen last year yourself.

Acetaminophen Toxicity - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Safe is a quantitative threshold that medical experts have put in place to gauge use in the general population. We use this threshold for every drug that the FDA has approved in this country. We have for decades, the COVID vaccines are no different. There is nothing crazy going on there, the drug companies did the appropriate Phase 1, 2 trials to prove this to the FDA, as any other drug requires. I do understand they accelerated timeline concerns, but feel given the potential to bring the US healthcare system to its knees.

Medical science is an amazing field. Doctors and trained professionals are going to get it wrong some of the time. Let me ask this, who do you want telling you how to build a rocket to fly to Mars…a rocket scientist or a medical doctor? Of course it’s rhetorical, but the same goes for trusting medical professionals. They aren’t going to get it right 100% of the time, but it is going to be much better than getting medical advice from rocket scientist. If you don’t feel that way in general (some on this forum do not trust medical professionals) then I do understand. Practically though….having a non-medical professional try to debate the benefits/risks of a vaccine with someone that has read hundreds of primary, peer reviewed literature is not really practical. We have read many articles, see patients in the ICU/hospital on a weekly basis, are involved in their care directly/indirectly, and have been trained to interpret statistical analysis and study design. It doesn’t mean I am going to get it right 100% of the time,…its medicine. The reason we say medical “practice” is because with biology it may be just that…practice. We are learning all the time, we evolve, we get better.

There has been a lot of miscommunication regarding the vaccine by the government. Didn’t help we had a change of regime during the pandemic. The CDC has done a poor job in my opinion. I dont have much confidence in them either. Social distancing was proven to be a joke, yet we spent BILLIONS of dollars across the US rearranging tables/workspace to accommodate 6 feet of spacing. Masking while beneficial if done properly (proper mask, proper face seal) has been a mixed bag and depends on the reliability/material of the person wearing it. Overall studies show masking has benefit to reducing airborne pathogen transmission. During a pandemic studies that isolate masking with no confounding variables are hard to design and monitor. Population health studies of this nature have never been tackled before, certainly not in the last 100 years. We are learning everyday. What we do know is the vaccine is safe and effective. Not because the CDC says so, but because the majority of the collective medical community in the world has studied it and published peer reviewed data to show it is.

With regards to the effectiveness of the vaccine, all I look at is burden on the healthcare system. As long as our ICU and critical infrastructure remains open for those non-COVID patients that need it, we are good. What we know is the vaccine keeps all but very old and immunocompromised out of the hospital. This is a very important metric. In Colorado at UC Health, 200 of 246 patients in the ICU were unvaccinated. Of the 46 that were vaccinated, almost all (98%) had comorbidities that made them susceptible to COVID, or were over 75. In Colorado we have around a 60% vaccination rate. A COVID patient is 4 times (in medicine this is huge, we often deal with 10% or 20%, not 400%) more likely to have very severe illness if unvaccinated. The data doesn’t lie or pick sides.

The last point of irony I will make is those folks that are ok with taking ivermectin, REGEN-COV, or other immunotherapies when they get COVID. While I would also consider these treatment options, they are far, far less studied than the vaccine. Why would anyone be ok with these drugs but not with of the most scrutinized vaccines in modern history is difficult for me to understand.

You have the opinion that there was adequate testing before FDA approval. I'm sure you're aware of the length of time to get a new drug on the market. You can say the appropriate phase 1 and phase 2 trials were performed. Just so folks can see here's a link to drug approval by the FDA. It takes years to get it done correctly. You can shorten the process and declare it's great, but we won't know for a couple of years at the soonest. https://www.fda.gov/media/82381/download

Here's a link to show the process: Pre-clinical trials, clinical trials, Phase 1, phase2, phase 3, then Review. This does not happen in months. https://www.crbgroup.com/insights/pharmaceuticals/drug-approval-process

You also state ivermectin and other therapies are "far, far less studied than the vaccine". The vaccine is being studied as it's injected into people, not before it's usage. Those who receive the vaccine are taking the place of the animal studies normally required.

Here's a reputable doctor detailing the use of ivermectin and states it is "the most studied repurposed medication globally.

 

[lugbolt]

yeah the GF and I butt heads like this all the time. She thinks a mask is to be worn everwhere. Her daddy is a doctor and talks about medical stuff he saw often. Similarly, us mechanics talk about mechanical stuff we see on a daily basis.

So automatically, if your around a doctor all the time you will think that disease is gonna kill you dead immediately. If you are around a mechanic pretty often you will think that the stuff that he's working on is inferior because he works on them all the time.

That is exactly how I explained it to her and it was as if a light bulb went off. The other thing I told her is that you can't be afraid of everything and you can't believe everything you see/read/hear. An independent mind is a good mind; a dependent mind is easily biased.

So if you ask a GM tech what he did yesterday at work, he'll say he replaced a multi function tailgage, a power steering unit assembly, possibly an engine or two (you get the idea). Automatically, your thought (not knowing any better) is that GM trucks are junk--and I tend to think that way too. IF you turn on the TV and fauci, pelosi, Obiden, and the media in general is on there talking about how bad covid is, automatically your brain says hey maybe I should be taking precaution.

Having had it twice and survived twice, with my experience I can say Covid is real, however for most of us it is not a big deal. If you are immunocompromized, or have other respiratory issues, absolutely you'll need to take precautions. And no I am not vaccinated. PCP says it's not a huge issue for me, also said that it's entirely likely that I'm immune already. Of course, he knows what I do for a living (mechanic'n on Polaris and lawn mowers), and knowing the chemicals that I'm exposed to on a daily basis probably help my immunity. Some of you may be thinking "whaaaat?".....in other words, Rangers get used in cow pastures and horse fields, and wherever else....meaning there's poo and all kinds of bacteria an viruses all over them, which probably has some affect on my personal immunity. That's the way the doc talked about it and I just repeated it to where y'all can understand it.

Agree to disagree. If they can't respect your decision, they can find a way to stay away from you. I have friends like that too and they know I'm kind of set in my ways. I've had some of these friends for over 30 years. Told it to them the same way. You don't like it you don't have to come around. If they are friends, they'll understand. If they're just acquaintenances that show up or call when they need something, they're not gonna hang around much. No skin off my back.

 

[torch]

I'm firmly in the camp of a free people that gets to make their own decisions. I believe in that old saying of "he who trades liberty for security will have neither." I believe relinquishing freedoms now means they are almost impossible to get back in the future.

You are free to go unmasked if you so choose. And others are free to refuse service, or prohibit your entry if they so choose. You are free to decide not to get vaccinated if you so choose. And others are free to consider your unvaccinated self a pariah if they so choose. Don't complain about losing your freedoms just because someone else exercises theirs.