Parents ought to be ashamed of themselves

[Henro]

I too have been trying to figure out that crazy method for the last three days! LOL! I realized how they filled in the numbers within the squares but could no way figure out how the answer was arrived at along the border. Once you finally get it.....it is pretty neat. However, if you don't know your basic math (add, subtract, multiply, divide) tables how would you know what numbers to place and where. Without those basic skills, this method is useless.

I'd also wager that without the penmanship and neatness skills being taught today, that the average person couldn't draw that grid neat enough to fill in the blanks and have everything lined up to be able to come to the right solution. It would just be simpler and quicker to do it the "tried & true" ol' fashioned way, wouldn't it?



I use pencil/paper for math all the time. Especially when it's quicker than going to find a calculator. It's also nice to have a "paper trail of your calculations" to remember how you arrived at your final answer when you might not come back to that problem for some time. Example: I use a paper trail of the calculations for some of the different herbicides I spray which is especially handy when the same herbicide is used for different applications with different ratios, etc. If a variable has changed it's much easier to see where to make that change in all the calculations while using a calculator. The same applies to all kinds of other uses where math is involved as well.

I think there's a lot of us that still use cash daily. Very few businesses teach their cashiers how to properly count out change......and it's so easy. If a purchase total amounts to $6.79 and the cashier is handed a $20 bill. The $20 bill is laid on the till. The cashier tells the customer the purchase amount ($6.79) then while giving back the change while counting it out: $6.80 (one penny), $6.90, $7.00 (two dimes), $8, $9, $10 (three ones), and $20 (ten $ bill). The cashier does need to know how to count correctly though. And I always watch to see where the cashier puts my payment before he/she enters the sale and starts getting the change. Once in a while they'll make a mistake.

I too did not bother trying to figure out the logic used in the example displayed in the posts above.

However, anyone that would use a pencil and paper to calculate, using the methods we older guys were taught in school, something like 329.6 x 19.87, rather that just use a calculator, is losing a bit of time that might be better used for something else.

Frankly, even though an old dog, I don't think I could even do it. Division would be even harder for me. Probably impossible For me.

Simpler stuff I just just do in my head. For example, I would round the numbers in my example above, and quickly come up with 6600 as a close enough answer, without use of a calculator, or pencil. (actual number is 6549.152...thanks calculator!)

edit: thinking about it, if the cash register person just put in the amount a person gives him the change should be automatically calculated...unless the cash register is from the same era as many of us! LOL!

 

[twomany]

Yes, parents share the responsibility for the failing education system. Let's examine that.

In the 60's, schools were very structured, rules were set, and any transgression was met with swift justice by the teacher. The principal's intervention was reserved for extreme cases such as violence toward a teacher, expulsion, or suspension, and that nearly always included a paddling. Continued disobedience was generally met with treatment at the local sanitarium with a steel rod up the nose to correct the behavior. 'Promiscuous' girls were usually sterilized. "Delinquent" boys were usually pressed into service in the armed forces. Either way, poor behavior had a rather extreme cost. Poor behavior existed, disrespect occured, but there was a fear factor that certainly garnered respect of authority.

In the 70's, schools were still fairly structured, however, teachers were softened up a little, and a little more permissive with open discussion in the classroom. They were more 'woke' about the events of the time, and the possible impacts on kids who were wondering if Daddy was coming home from Vietnam. Laws were enacted to limit corporal punishment to only the most heinous offenses (using a pocket knife in a school fight, discharging a firearm in the parking lot). Lobotomies ceased. Military draft/conscription went away, ergo, no legal means of forcing young men into the military. Disobedience is on the rise, ergo, so is learning on the decline.

In the 80's, no lessons were really learned in the 70s, so more laws were enacted to try to completely eliminate corporal punishment (which ultimately succeeded). Teachers had to have parents' permission to correct children, and were losing control of the classrooms. This angered a lot of older teachers who felt their services were for naught, so they stopped teaching and used their tenure to ride the retirement gravy train. Education dumb-down begins because kids who aren't taught don't learn. It must be the school's fault.

In the 90's the parents who went to school in the 60's and 70's never wanted their kids paddled or even spoken to harshly in the schools. Again, mayhem ensues through lack of discipline, and school becomes a daycare center for kids that won't mind either their parents nor any other authority figure. More racial tension is fomented by the indoctrination of how bad Whitey is. Children of color choose not to cooperate nor learn from the instructors that were predominantly white (mostly because of the effects of economics and availability of funding for educating non-Caucasian teachers). So, the obvious solution is to stop teaching the white kids too. No child left behind. (Doesn't this also mean no child gets ahead?)

I sometimes wonder if the snow-ball effect of limiting the authority of teachers and the schools can be reversed to correct the real problem (lack of discipline) in our school systems. There are no real consequences for poor behavior nor not trying to learn, other than aging out (19 years old max in Alabama) of the public school system without any documentation (diploma) that they are willing to achieve anything. Even the GED has been dumbed down because the mathematics questions were deemed unfair and racist. That is perhaps the most mind boggling statement I've ever seen. I'm clueless how mathematics and logic can be racist, but apparently they are. Our public schools have to have interpreters for kids that can't speak the language that somehow arrived day-before-yesterday and have a 'right' to an education, but they can't prove they're not invaders or illegal immigrants.

I'm not pointing my finger at anyone in particular, just pointing out the fact that without rules, discipline, and performance standards, an education system cannot succeed. If that does not happen, then I'll give you three guesses what happens to future versions of the education system that is run by the people that the one before failed. Snowball's chance in hell of correcting this without a lot of conservative effort and planning. Lowering the standards because some cannot succeed is obviously not the answer.

They way I have it

Kids used to be seen and not heard

Then kids were listened to.

Now, kids are obeyed.

(N.B. Some kids are quite old.)

 

[NHSleddog]

I too did not bother trying to figure out the logic used in the example displayed in the posts above.

However, anyone that would use a pencil and paper to calculate, using the methods we older guys were taught in school, something like 329.6 x 19.87, rather that just use a calculator, is losing a bit of time that might be better used for something else.

Frankly, even though an old dog, I don't think I could even do it. Division would be even harder for me. Probably impossible For me.

Simpler stuff I just just do in my head. For example, I would round the numbers in my example above, and quickly come up with 6600 as a close enough answer, without use of a calculator, or pencil. (actual number is 6549.152...thanks calculator!)

edit: thinking about it, if the cash register person just put in the amount a person gives him the change should be automatically calculated...unless the cash register is from the same era as many of us! LOL!

Well we know math is a challenge for you Henro. There are actually many out in the world that look at both of those equations and just see the answer. No figuring at all, most double digit calculations I can see just sitting there, no paper or calculator needed.

But many many people do math on paper. If you ever get in to proto fabricating, you will use it all the time.

I still don't think that is an excuse not to teach US children how to count, "because they could find a calculator to use instead".

 

[sheepfarmer]

Well we know math is a challenge for you Henro. There are actually many out in the world that look at both of those equations and just see the answer. No figuring at all, most double digit calculations I can see just sitting there, no paper or calculator needed.

But many many people do math on paper. If you ever get in to proto fabricating, you will use it all the time.

I still don't think that is an excuse not to teach US children how to count, "because they could find a calculator to use instead".

So how come you (sleddog) didn't realize the matrix method required knowing the times table and how to add? It is in principle identical in logic to the old fashioned method, just written differently.

 

[Henro]

Well we know math is a challenge for you Henro. There are actually many out in the world that look at both of those equations and just see the answer. No figuring at all, most double digit calculations I can see just sitting there, no paper or calculator needed.

But many many people do math on paper. If you ever get in to proto fabricating, you will use it all the time.

I still don't think that is an excuse not to teach US children how to count, "because they could find a calculator to use instead".

Well you kind of miss the point. If you think people who do prototype calculations on anything but a napkin use a pencil to calculate or draw what they are working on, you likely should join us in the 21st century.

Not sure what equations you are referring to, but no doubt there are people that can do complex calculations in their heads without thinking about it. But they are few and far between. Perhaps you are one of them. What is 2396.2 x 312.94? Get your pencil, and I will do what nearly everyone else this century does, and grab my calculator. And use the time saved for other things. Unless, of course, you are one of the gifted, then I will lose and bow to you!

Point is, teaching mathematics IS important for kids. BUT using methods we are familiar and comfortable with may not be necessary. AND after it is all over, they will likely remember the basics of what they learned, but use the tools at hand today, to get the job done sooner and with less chance or error.

Just an old dog here willing to change with the times...

 

[Henro]

Well you kind of miss the point. If you think people who do prototype calculations on anything but a napkin use a pencil to calculate or draw what they are working on, you likely should join us in the 21st century.

Not sure what equations you are referring to, but no doubt there are people that can do complex calculations in their heads without thinking about it. But they are few and far between. Perhaps you are one of them. What is 2396.2 x 312.94? Get your pencil, and I will do what nearly everyone else this century does, and grab my calculator. And use the time saved for other things. Unless, of course, you are one of the gifted, then I will lose and bow to you!

Point is, teaching mathematics IS important for kids. BUT using methods we are familiar and comfortable with may not be necessary. AND after it is all over, they will likely remember the basics of what they learned, but use the tools at hand today, to get the job done sooner and with less chance or error.

Just an old dog here willing to change with the times...

Just another thought, what if that person who had trouble making change at the cash register had been old and gray haired, rather than young?

He would likely have learned basic math under the old system. Would you have just written him off as lacking ability, rather than lacking proper training? Or senile, as since he was taught by the old method... he must certainly by definition have been able to make proper change if he was not old/senile?

Or might it be he just lacked the aptitude to get the job done, probably like he did when he wasn't old and/or senile?

Almost sounds like this thread has a "kill the messenger" approach (math teaching method) rather than an "identify the possible issue" approach (person has no math ability). BUT that same person may have talents in other areas much superior to what we have ourselves...should we just think of him as stupid and move on?

 

[jimh406]

Almost sounds like this thread has a "kill the messenger" approach (math teaching method) rather than an "identify the possible issue" approach (person has no math ability).

No, it seems like some people like you want to make the thread be everything is fine … move along.

Either way … I’m sure lots of people on this thread are changing their opinions.

 

[TX Chris]

I didn't read the whole thread, just the first post. My contribution:

I was a cashier at Albertsons (grocery store) in the early 90's during high school. Back then, the vast majority paid with cash or check. I never used the register to tell the change, I just hit the cash button to open the drawer and counted out the change.

My manager reprimanded me after several customers complained that I gave them change without using the register because the customer had no idea if I was giving them the correct change or not. My till was NEVER off. But they forced me to use the register so the customer could trust me.

Fast forward to current times - has anyone else noticed that QT gas stations require all of their cashiers to learn how to count change back to a customer correctly?

 

[Henro]

Either way … I’m sure lots of people on this thread are changing their opinions.

Or developing an opinion! LOL

Never had an opinion on this subject until reading this thread...

Kind of reminds me of looking at my dad when I was young and thinking "Dad sure seems unbending in his thinking!" (And wondering if everybody gets like that when they get older)

 

[NHSleddog]

So how come you (sleddog) didn't realize the matrix method required knowing the times table and how to add? It is in principle identical in logic to the old fashioned method, just written differently.

Yes of coarse you need "finger math" to do it. Most kids have "finger math" down before they get to school. You should read up on it before defending it. They teach you how to break the numbers down if you can't handle the big numbers. They can actually "build up" to those equations shown above. It is rediculous and every establishment excuse so far has been rediculous as well. And this is just math.

 

[Old_Paint]

I’m not faulting either the students or the teacher when laws are enacted that control the teacher’s skill set. I learned basic math from a teacher who was certainly a gifted teacher as very few had trouble passing his course, but the complete content was presented and covered and tested for understanding. He was wonderful. Roger Fuller is/was probably one of the most influential people in my life. He put math down in hillbilly terms and made it fun. NO ONE felt like he was making fun of them. For instance, for addition of numbers with unlike signs, his instructions were “Take the littlun from the biggun and give it the sign of the biggun”. Subtraction? “Change the sign of the subtrahend (bottom number) and proceed as in addition.” He made math that so many think hard simple, simply because of the way he explained it. But teachers don’t have that latitude now. They get fired if they don’t follow the recipe. Parents are certainly responsible for the election of the people making those decisions.
And yes, I do 4 digit multiplication in my head all the time because of Roger Fuller. Mrs, Mildred Farrish said I was one of the most prepared students she ever had the opportunity to teach more advanced mathematics (algebra, geometry, A2, and trigonometry), again thanks to Roger Fuller. There were 45 seniors in our tiny graduation class. ONE took A2 and finished, and ONE took and finished Trig. I still had a full semester of math to take to finish my senior year, but no teacher qualified to teach me. Am I genius? NO!!!! I just learned from good instructors that cared and loved teaching, especially to students who wanted to learn. Gotta have the “want to” to learn. The rest comes easy when the desire is there.

 

[Newaterman]

Maybe it's different down south, but I just spent the last few months supervising a young grandson doing his schooling on-line as the classrooms were closed due to Covid.

The kids learned clocks and how to make change. They had electronic flash cards every day. They wrote stories or poems every day. There was geography, history, social studies, science, art and French. They also had computer programming class.

Every morning, the students rose to sing the national anthem before the principal recited a math problem and a trivia question and challenged the kids to be first to e-mail him their answers.

We used to pass paper notes, today's kids chit-chat behind the teachers' backs by using software such as Discord; the more things change, the more they stay the same.

There wasn't any race theory, but they did explain to the kids what the residential school system was when the unmarked graves surrounding some of the schools were discovered.

Gym class was the most challenging, but the kids were encouraged to do individual physical activities during the allotted time: ride a bike, go swimming, follow along with a dance video on you-tube.

Frankly, I don't know what the hell you people are grousing about. For the last 8 years, I have been a mentor for the local high school robotics program. The kids design, prototype, build, wire, program, test, troubleshoot, refine and compete their robots from scratch using CAD, lathes, mills, CNC routers, 3D printers, sewing machines, welders and plasma cutters.

A couple of years ago, we had a senior mining engineer come by to check out what his company sponsored and ended up tapping the students about 3D printing because they had more practical experience in rapid prototyping than he did.

They raise the funds, creating business plans and presenting them to potential sponsors. They create and present the web pages and the spreadsheets and the speeches. Then they mentor the Lego robotics programs in local elementary schools.

Not every kid can do every thing. But if you give them a fair shake, you might just be surprised at what they can do.

The angry old men staring at their own mortality of every generation always shits on the next one. They just always seem to forget who raised them.

I grew up in the yacht/marine industry and became captain of a 4000hp tugboat moving oil in New York at 27. We get plenty of new guys that lack a lot of hands on skills & common sense, but we also get just as many middle aged and older guys that can’t send a daily fuel report or order supplies because of the “gosh darn computer.” Things change, people have different skills sets depending on what they care up with.

so I’m with ya, I think we’re all gonna be ok.

I’ll end with it wasn’t millennials who watched their older brothers and friends die by the thousands in south east Asia, only to send their kids & grandkids to the desert for 20 nearly pointless years.