BX25D PTO Oil Pressure low!!!?

[JamRockBX25]

Can any one help! we purchased a 2014 BX25DLB in a USA auction in FL to help us in a small homestead farming project in Jamaica W.I. ...every thing is working fine with the tractor i.e. the loader, backhoe etc....only problem we seem to be having is that the ...PTO engages FINE! for 30+ mins when the HST is cold! ...But when the HST worms up after 30+ mins or so and the Hydrophilic oil temperature rises to around 55+ deg-C ... the PTO will no longer engage! ...can any suggest what could be the possible cause ??...the issue is puzzling both me and my mechanic assistant in pic...

 

[Dave_eng]

I will provide you with some reading material from the WSM dealing with the pto clutch.

Note the pto engagement is by hydraulic oil pressure fed from the power steering controller as it operates at much lower pressure than the overall hydraulic system Less than 200 psi

The design is a bit involved and even doing the pressure test, a special adapter i needed because you have to Tee into the line feeding the clutch pack.

It is possible that the operating pressure is too low as the oil heats up. It is also possible that the clutch plates are worn from being allowed to slip when low pressure occurs.

Dave
.

 

[JamRockBX25]

I will provide you with some reading material from the WSM dealing with the pto clutch.

Note the pto engagement is by hydraulic oil pressure fed from the power steering controller as it operates at much lower pressure than the overall hydraulic system Less than 200 psi

The design is a bit involved and even doing the pressure test, a special adapter i needed because you have to Tee into the line feeding the clutch pack.

It is possible that the operating pressure is too low as the oil heats up. It is also possible that the clutch plates are worn from being allowed to slip when low pressure occurs.

Dave
.

Dave_eng

Thank you for responding we actually have a WSM hence we have been studying it for a possible solution ...thanks for the note re how the pto gets its oil feed... we did not know this ....we did install a brand new hydraulic pump few days ago because the pump flow was under the WSM recommended flows for power steering controller input ... new hydraulic pump did fixed that issue as the flow is now at MF recommended rate ..Q. so how exactly do i ...Tee into the line feeding the clutch pack ? (a) at steering controller return line see pic Fig1 or (b) at PTO clutch valve see pic Fig2??

 

[Dave_eng]

Dave_eng

Thank you for responding we actually have a WSM hence we have been studying it for a possible solution ...thanks for the note re how the pto gets its oil feed... we did not know this ....we did install a brand new hydraulic pump few days ago because the pump flow was under the WSM recommended flows for power steering controller input ... new hydraulic pump did fixed that issue as the flow is now at MF recommended rate ..Q. so how exactly do i ...Tee into the line feeding the clutch pack ? (a) at steering controller return line see pic Fig1 or (b) at PTO clutch valve see pic Fig2??

Doing the test at the rear of the tractor seems simplier because no Tee fitting is required.

If that test is low then you need to go back and do the test with a Tee.

Dave

 

[JamRockBX25]

Doing the test at the rear of the tractor seems simplier because no Tee fitting is required.

If that test is low then you need to go back and do the test with a Tee.

Dave

noted ... we are aiming to test tomorrow ...we are setup to do the Tee fitting test in the steering controller return line...will share the result...

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

What fluid and filter is on / in it, 90% of the time issues like this are fluid / filter related!

 

[JamRockBX25]

What fluid and filter is on / in it, 90% of the time issues like this are fluid / filter related!

ok hydrophilic fluid in tractor currently only 2-3 weeks is OEM super UDT2 70000-40205 and the filter also new is Kubota-OEM-PART-HHK20-36990-CARTRIDGE

 

[JamRockBX25]

noted ... we are aiming to test tomorrow ...we are setup to do the Tee fitting test in the steering controller return line...will share the result...

Team... now completed steering controller return line test reading was @ 207 PSI with Oil temp@ 32+-C make sense as hydrophilic Pump is brand-new not the the PTO engages in approx 1+-sec now ... we kept tractor / PTO running while engage and disengaging the PTO over 3 X 10min intervals ... at second interval when the oil temperature got to 41+-C and 198 PSI the PTO engage time increased 2+-sec etc. at third interval Oil temp@ 55+-C and 195 PSI the PTO STOP engaging! any further temps failed! .....hence our rookie conclusion is that the current PTO Clutch pack is worn i.e. is in short we may need to install a new BX PTO Clutch Pack Kit etc. PN# xxx-xxxxx see image below ?... this based on a summery bases on all the info and knowledge shared as to the possible cause ... Guys please comments ?

 

[Dave_eng]

Can you please provide more details on the history of this tractor.

From the photos it looks to have had a comparatively easy life and yet you have had to replace the hydraulic pump and now it seems the pto clutch pack is worn out.

I am just trying to imagine what else might be happening other than the worn out clutch.

Was the tractor operated with a pto driven implement for a long time when it was apparent the pto clutch was slipping?

Dave

 

[PoTreeBoy]

When you say it engages when cold, do you have a load on it or do you just see the shaft turning? Could you hold a board against it CAREFULLY and see it it's really putting out any torque?
Edit Does this tractor have mid PTO? Are you checking both shafts? Sorry to be asking dumb questions but I'm hoping it's an easy solution.

 

[JamRockBX25]

Can you please provide more details on the history of this tractor.

From the photos it looks to have had a comparatively easy life and yet you have had to replace the hydraulic pump and now it seems the pto clutch pack is worn out.

I am just trying to imagine what else might be happening other than the worn out clutch.

Was the tractor operated with a pto driven implement for a long time when it was apparent the pto clutch was slipping?

Dave

we don't know if it ever working OK...after we purchase the reactor @ internet auction... took a 4 day flight to USA to inspect, pay and make arrangements to ship unit to Jamaica... we just focused on core (a) did unit start, was the engine is in good condition (b) did the loader work (c) did the backhoe work (d) did the unit drive well (e) did power steering work... yes these all passed our test with 5 stars ...auction sales are more or less sold as seen ...hence we were good to go...

While sill on the ground made friends with a local Kubota dealer crystaltractorandequipment and purchased services items for 2 full services which was shipped the tractor to Jamaica ...unfortunate 2 cases of super UDT2 purchased got misplayed lost in transit ...so we ended-up resourcing OEM super UDT2 70000-40205 which was more cost effective and easier to ship to Jamaica

True answer re question, we never fully tested the PTO until a few weeks ago when our 48"medium duty flail mower arrived, befour that were caught up in the full major services, rebuild/overhaul i.e. HST fan replace , wheel spacers, Grapple , Third function valve , Skid Plate , fit new tiers etc.

Note: new hydraulic pump was NOT purchased to fix the PTO problem we did not even know a PTO problem existed at that time ...the core reason was the old hydraulic pump WSM recommended flow test values was low ... when new pump was fitted the unit became a totally different animal... so much that my litter daughter having originally named the tractor Scoopy renamed it "Scoop Monster"

so Dave you going with worn out clutch also ? i am now leaning to this based on every thing i now know! ... any any more expert comments ???

 

[JamRockBX25]

When you say it engages when cold, do you have a load on it or do you just see the shaft turning? Could you hold a board against it CAREFULLY and see it it's really putting out any torque?

Yes 48"medium duty flail mower

 

[PoTreeBoy]

I'm hoping Dave will reply. I don't see a port to measure the pressure actually being applied to the clutch, but before I split the tractor I'd pull the PTO control valve, clean it out, look in the port the best I could, maybe replace the orings and reassemble.
EDIT: re-reading I see that JamRock's manual has better info than I found. There are ports for both before and after the valve. JamRock, did you do the second test? If so, what were the pressures engaged and disengaged?

 

[Dave_eng]

I'm hoping Dave will reply. I don't see a port to measure the pressure actually being applied to the clutch, but before I split the tractor I'd pull the PTO control valve, clean it out, look in the port the best I could, maybe replace the orings and reassemble.
EDIT: re-reading I see that JamRock's manual has better info than I found. There are ports for both before and after the valve. JamRock, did you do the second test? If so, what were the pressures engaged and disengaged?

I am not clear if the second test at the pto clutch without a Tee was done.

The owner is very thorough in his descriptions but I am getting confused with other machines with hydraulic issues so it is more me........

Dave

 

[PoTreeBoy]

I am not clear if the second test at the pto clutch without a Tee was done.

The owner is very thorough in his descriptions but I am getting confused with other machines with hydraulic issues so it is more me........

Dave

Yes he is thorough. And has a WSM! But when I re-read the thread, it didn't seem like he did the test without the tee.

 

[Dave_eng]

Yes he is thorough. And has a WSM! But when I re-read the thread, it didn't seem like he did the test without the tee.

You are undoubtedly right.

Skipping a step in the procedure may send the owner off doing more work than necessary.

Dave

 

[JamRockBX25]

Yes he is thorough. And has a WSM! But when I re-read the thread, it didn't seem like he did the test without the tee.

Team,

we cant say how much i appreciate all the effort you all are providing to help us resolve the problem!!!

PoTreeBoy

Your observations re second test Fig2 below was from BX23 WSM!... we were informed from another source this test was possible on a BX25 ...... that said in our checks we were unable to locate that R1/8 port on our BX25, at said area in question to conduct the test! ...that is why no info re test was provided ... we should have informed you sorry guys! lesson learnt!

you hinted to "pulling PTO control valve" could not find this in BX25WSM ... were you referring to the PTO clutch valve (Fig3) below... we omitted this step as our thinking was that the pto could not engage and reach full speed & toque from cold, if any blockage was in existence here ... our reasoning when the oil is cool the pto will full engage every time ... only when the oil heats up! it will not re-engage ...hence our thinking this is not a blockage re oil passages etc. through the "PTO clutch valve" ...guys please keep us honest re our thoughts on this!

Dave_eng

Picked up from your response that in-fact the port may exist... if so can you provide us a pic of the area on the BX25 from which to locate the port so we can conduct the second test!

Team Note: re "tee test conducted " the oil pressure remained @ around 198-195+- PSI when the PTO fully engages from (cold oil 30-45c) that pressure continues to hold when the PTO fails to re-engage in (hot oil 50-60c) condition!

Thanks for all your continued efforts!

 

[PoTreeBoy]

The BX25 manual I downloaded from kubotabooks.com only shows the first test. That's the pressure upstream from the valve which looks good. Apparently it's not possible to check the downstream pressure actually applied to the clutch. That's why I would pull the valve, check, flush, and replace a couple of orings first. Sure looks easier than splitting the tractor.

 

[JamRockBX25]

The BX25 manual I downloaded from kubotabooks.com only shows the first test. That's the pressure upstream from the valve which looks good. Apparently it's not possible to check the downstream pressure actually applied to the clutch. That's why I would pull the valve, check, flush, and replace a couple of orings first. Sure looks easier than splitting the tractor.

ok understood ... we will "pull the valve, check, flush, and replace o rings" etc. asap. i agree "splitting the tractor" should be a last resort!

 

[lugbolt]

did you clean the screen?

in the bottom left of the transmission