Do gear driven 4701 burn up clutches?

[Rickklem]

I am looking to purchase a L4701 and I had made up my mind to get a gear driven (Shuttle Shift) with R1 tires. One of the dealers told me that he would not go with the gear drive if I'm going to use the loader or grapple. He said that he has had a lot of customers bring in their tractor and found that the clutches we're burnt up.

He said the problem is the clutch is to small or weak for this size loader and people are destroying them. He recommend me going with the HST if I planned on using the loader at all.
As for the tires, he said that he would go with R4's because the R1 doesn't work well with loaders because they are too narrow and tend to roll off the wheel if they are turned too tight while the bucket is loaded.
So, guess what model of L4701 he has on his lot today and what he doesn't. He has a HST with R4 and said it would be about 3 months to get me a gear given with R1's.

Is any of this true? Have you heard of any issues of burnt clutches on a gear drive due to using a loader?

He said he has one customer that did it in 4 weeks and it wasn't covered under warranty because it is considered wear item.

Help
Rick

 

[PapaJ]

While a HST is better suited for loader work involving digging and loading, it can be done with a Shuttle Shift. That being said, if most of your work will be implements, the Shuttle shift is better as you don't have to hold down a peddle the whole time you're using it. This is all theory. I do 50/50 loader vs. implement with an HST, and I have not issue operating the tractor for a couple hours straight. If I was a commercial operator guy, I'd probably go with a shuttle shift gear driven tractor. As far as the clutch specifically for the L4701, I'll let those guys chime in, as I have no idea.

 

[Rickklem]

While a HST is better suited for loader work involving digging and loading, it can be done with a Shuttle Shift. That being said, if most of your work will be implements, the Shuttle shift is better as you don't have to hold down a peddle the whole time you're using it. This is all theory. I do 50/50 loader vs. implement with an HST, and I have not issue operating the tractor for a couple hours straight. If I was a commercial operator guy, I'd probably go with a shuttle shift gear driven tractor. As far as the clutch specifically for the L4701, I'll let those guys chime in, as I have no idea.

That is in line with what I have read about both of them.


Now, I want to find out if what this dealer told me is correct or if he is just trying to sell me what he has on his lot because it is going to be a while before he gets what I want and might loose a sell to another dealer.

I also need to figure out what type transmission is actually offered in the L4701.
Documents show the HST and the Shuttle shift. But he told me that it is either the HST or the DT gear drive. He said if I went with the gear drive then I have to come to a complete stop press in the clutch change to reverse then back up.

So question, is the shuttle shift offered in L4701 and if so, do I have to push in the clutch when I come to a complete stop. As in if I move up to a pile of sand and advance forward to fill the bucket when I come to a stop will the tractor stall if I do not have the clutch pressed? If the answer is yes, then what is the great thing about being able to go from forward to reverse without clutching if I have to use the clutch when I stop, to go in reverse?

 

[SidecarFlip]

If it has a hydraulic shuttle you won't be using a clutch because a hydraulic shuttle don't have one (dry clutch) so burned up clutches don't happen. Don't know if that model can be bought with a hydraulic shuttle but if it can, I'd go with that and a gear transmission.

 

[wgator]

So question, is the shuttle shift offered in L4701 and if so, do I have to push in the clutch when I come to a complete stop. As in if I move up to a pile of sand and advance forward to fill the bucket when I come to a stop will the tractor stall if I do not have the clutch pressed? If the answer is yes, then what is the great thing about being able to go from forward to reverse without clutching if I have to use the clutch when I stop, to go in reverse?

The following is from the L4701 Operators manual (page 33):
Synchro-Shuttle Shift Lever
Shift the shuttle shift lever forward to obtain forward speeds and shift back to obtain reverse speeds. When changing the shuttle shift lever, depress the clutch pedal and stop the tractor before shifting.

IMPORTANT:
- The synchro-shuttle shift lever may be shifted while the tractor is moving slowly and the clutch is depressed, but sudden gear shifting may cause transmission damage.

You can download the operators manual BY CLICKING HERE

 

[Rickklem]

The following is from the L4701 Operators manual (page 33):
Synchro-Shuttle Shift Lever
Shift the shuttle shift lever forward to obtain forward speeds and shift back to obtain reverse speeds. When changing the shuttle shift lever, depress the clutch pedal and stop the tractor before shifting.

IMPORTANT:
- The synchro-shuttle shift lever may be shifted while the tractor is moving slowly and the clutch is depressed, but sudden gear shifting may cause transmission damage.

You can download the operators manual BY CLICKING HERE

First of all thank you for your response. Now I'm really confused. I have read @ several places including Kubotas site that the selling point of the shuttle shift is that you do not need to press the clutch to change from forward to reverse.

What am I missing?

 

[wgator]

The L4701 is a Synchro-Shuttle Shift not a hydraulic shuttle shift talked about in your screen shot attachment.
Here is a link to the kubota brochure from their website: CLICK HERE

 

[UpNorthMI]

First of all thank you for your response. Now I'm really confused. I have read @ several places including Kubotas site that the selling point of the shuttle shift is that you do not need to press the clutch to change from forward to reverse.

What am I missing?

I believe that the L4701 is a mechanical synchro shuttle transmission not hydraulic, maybe that explains the attached post above. I don't own one but understand that changing from forward to reverse requires use of the clutch as per the manual excerpt above.

You have not stated what your use is and why you want gears and R1 tires, it would be good to share for people to comment and help. Do you plan to buy 4WD or just 2WD? R4's have their place, what is your intended use?

With regard to your dealers comments about R1 tires I would just say his comment is not correct, you should not be turning fast or hard or tight with a full bucket. I run an L series and a MX series on R1 tires with loaders, they are the best solution for my use (mainly off road dirt use, general ag use, ground work etc.) If I have a full bucket I am being careful!

 

[SidecarFlip]

Been my experience that with dry clutches, the biggest reason for early failure is the operator don't know how to properly use one. IOW, stupid left foot.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

2 different shuttle systems!
Mechanical shuttle (synchro shuttle) (L4701) must use clutch, and should not be rolling.
Hydraulic shuttle (larger / higher end models) no clutch required, and can be shifted stopped or rolling in either direction.

 

[Rickklem]

I believe that the L4701 is a mechanical synchro shuttle transmission not hydraulic, maybe that explains the attached post above. I don't own one but understand that changing from forward to reverse requires use of the clutch as per the manual excerpt above.

You have not stated what your use is and why you want gears and R1 tires, it would be good to share for people to comment and help. Do you plan to buy 4WD or just 2WD? R4's have their place, what is your intended use?

With regard to your dealers comments about R1 tires I would just say his comment is not correct, you should not be turning fast or hard or tight with a full bucket. I run an L series and a MX series on R1 tires with loaders, they are the best solution for my use (mainly off road dirt use, general ag use, ground work etc.) If I have a full bucket I am being careful!

I would say 50/50 bush hog, grapple clean up work. And some box blade work on gravel drive way.

I currently own a 1950 Ferguson that I have had for 20 plus years so I understand about using a clutch. I want the gear drive because I don't want to give up HP to the HST system. But if the dealer is correct about failing clutches due to using a FEL, then I could get use to a HST.
I guess with my age creeping upward and my knees showing their age, I should think about an HST system.

As for the R4, I have people telling me that they do not have the traction that a R1 has. There are time when I do get in muddy places but not everyday.

Thanks again for input.
Rick

 

[PaulL]

R1 have more traction. For many people, R4 have enough traction. And they are more durable and better for loader work. So the question really is - how muddy and how often. With 4wd you're not really going to get stuck unless you're pulling a heavy implement in deep mud. I would have thought unless you're pulling ground engaging implements in mud (so a plow or something), you should be fine. A bush hog doesn't engage the ground so probably fine, a box blade is on gravel, so R4s are fine. The one that might matter is the grapple work - I can imagine pulling out logs or branches or driving into the ground a bit on slopes or in mud. Is that something you'd do enough that R4+4WD wouldn't be enough?

On giving up HP, a 4701 has plenty of HP. Sure, you give up a bit, but does it impact your use? Unless your bush hog is massive, a 4701 will spin it plenty fine, even in HST. You'll be limited by what it can lift on the 3ph more than the HP (in terms of bush hog size).

If it were me, I'd buy what you dealer has. His reasons are a bit self serving, but there's grains of truth in there, and I think what he's recommending is potentially a good solution for your use. And it's available now, who knows when another will be available.

 

[SidecarFlip]

R1 have more traction. For many people, R4 have enough traction. And they are more durable and better for loader work. So the question really is - how muddy and how often. With 4wd you're not really going to get stuck unless you're pulling a heavy implement in deep mud. I would have thought unless you're pulling ground engaging implements in mud (so a plow or something), you should be fine. A bush hog doesn't engage the ground so probably fine, a box blade is on gravel, so R4s are fine. The one that might matter is the grapple work - I can imagine pulling out logs or branches or driving into the ground a bit on slopes or in mud. Is that something you'd do enough that R4+4WD wouldn't be enough?

On giving up HP, a 4701 has plenty of HP. Sure, you give up a bit, but does it impact your use? Unless your bush hog is massive, a 4701 will spin it plenty fine, even in HST. You'll be limited by what it can lift on the 3ph more than the HP (in terms of bush hog size).

If it were me, I'd buy what you dealer has. His reasons are a bit self serving, but there's grains of truth in there, and I think what he's recommending is potentially a good solution for your use. And it's available now, who knows when another will be available.

It does? Could have fooled me. It has what it has for it's size and displacement but power wise I can use more sometimes with my M9's (83-90 pto). It's all relative on what you need to power (size of implement).

 

[UpNorthMI]

I would say 50/50 bush hog, grapple clean up work. And some box blade work on gravel drive way.

I currently own a 1950 Ferguson that I have had for 20 plus years so I understand about using a clutch. I want the gear drive because I don't want to give up HP to the HST system. But if the dealer is correct about failing clutches due to using a FEL, then I could get use to a HST.
I guess with my age creeping upward and my knees showing their age, I should think about an HST system.

As for the R4, I have people telling me that they do not have the traction that a R1 has. There are time when I do get in muddy places but not everyday.

Thanks again for input.
Rick

It sounds like you are open to HST, personally I have 3 HST tractors and enjoy driving them all, I don't think power loss is an issue if you are buying a L4701. It also sounds like you really want R1 tires and based on your comments I agree with you that you should buy R1 tires.

With regard to tires your dealer can easily swap out the existing R4 for R1 tires, this should not be an issue, you will save money too as R1 cost less than the R4. Many dealers charge an up charge of $500-$750 to go from R1 to R4.

I would go back to your dealer and tell him that you really wanted the gear model but if he does the deal of a lifetime on the HST unit he has in stock you are prepared to buy it but he also needs to swap out the R4 for R1 tires. I think you will find a good price and a willing dealer.

Once you have a HST model I think you will really appreciate it. Best of luck making your mind up.

 

[Rickklem]

All great information. Since no one commented on the clutches, I assume there is no none problem with the clutch being under sized for the L4701. I searched the internet and I have not been able to find anyone complaining about the clutch failing because they were using a FEL as the dealer mentioned.

I do not doubt that the HST is a great option or that the R4 isn't a great tire. And to be honest, if he gets right with the price, I might go that route. If they are capable of doing what I need. But if I do go with the gear drive, I want to be sure that the clutch issue he mentioned is not a problem

Thanks again
Rick

 

[fruitcakesa]

I do almost exclusively FEL work with my M6040 hydraulic shuttle with R1's and while an HST would make such work "smoother", the gear drive system seems bulletproof.
I have also moved full bucketloads of material with the R1's, and while they squat a bit, I have never thrown a tire and this machine has a full yard bucket.
Just operate smart with care and there should be no tire issues

 

[BigG]

When I purchased my L2501 I choose the R4 tires. I did not know at the time the rims are not the same as the ag R1 tires. The R4 tires can only be mounted one way. The R1 tires come on a 2 piece rim that is fully adjustable which might make a difference if you need a wide or narrow tractor. You can also add wheel weights to the R1 rims. This makes for a much more stable tractor when doing FEL work.

 

[NCL4701]

I would say 50/50 bush hog, grapple clean up work. And some box blade work on gravel drive way.

I currently own a 1950 Ferguson that I have had for 20 plus years so I understand about using a clutch. I want the gear drive because I don't want to give up HP to the HST system. But if the dealer is correct about failing clutches due to using a FEL, then I could get use to a HST.
I guess with my age creeping upward and my knees showing their age, I should think about an HST system.

As for the R4, I have people telling me that they do not have the traction that a R1 has. There are time when I do get in muddy places but not everyday.

Thanks again for input.
Rick

Can’t speak directly to the clutch question as my L4701 is HST. You do lose some HP with the HST. Manual that came with mine shows 39.3 PTO for gear drive and 37.8 for HST; less than 2 HP. If that difference is a big deal you might consider a larger tractor. Most of what I do is loader work and even brush hogging I have a lot of forward/reverse so the HST is much better for my use. For occasional draft work or more open mowing it has a cruise control lever so you can set speed and take your foot off the treadle. This is the first tractor I’ve operated with R4’s. Traction forward is acceptable for me but not as good as R1’s. Traction in reverse is better than R1’s which is useless in some things but can be helpful in some situations with loader and grapple work. I do get into some deep mud at times. The 4wd with R4’s is still better than 2wd with R1’s in sloppy mud in my experience. Even with the R4 wheels they are width adjustable but you’ll probably need the dealer to do it if the tires are loaded. I’ve not had any problems with sufficient counterweight for the LA765 loader capacity with loaded R4’s and a 847lb boxscrape topped of with about 75lb of log chain. I don’t necessarily need the extra weight of the chains but they’re always on there anyway. The R4’s don’t tear up our trails near as bad as the R1’s on our older 2wd tractors even though the L4701 is heavier.

Only tractors I had significant hours on before this one were clutch and a stick. Never operated a shuttle. All that nice stuff said about HST said if I was going to put a plow or disc harrow behind it and run it 12 hours a day as my main use like I did when I was younger, I’d probably opt for gear drive, R1’s, (and hope I could afford something bigger than a L4701).

 

[Russell King]

Not sure if they are available on this model but there is a combination tire called an R14 that is out now.

I believe loader work is hard on any clutch because you are slipping the clutch frequently-as far as I can tell from watching the way most operators attack a pile of dirt. I don’t have experience with any loader personally.