Dealer today....

[ccoon520]

So you know I'm not blowing smoke...lol

From Heavy Equipment magazine....

The scope of Stage V in Europe, however, will differ somewhat from all the regulations that came before it, says Payne. Previous regs exempted engines under 24 horsepower. Stage 5 will likely cover all engines regardless of horsepower. The rules for flex credits and transitional engines, which gave some manufacturers breathing room in the old regulations, would likely be restricted in a Stage V scenario, Payne says.

From this source published in October of 2018: http://www.servicetruckmagazine.com/features/tier-5-emissions-standards-not-expected-anytime-soon/

It will be quiet some time before we see any Tier 5 here. Remember that the current system was started in 1992 and took until like 2016(?) to get fully implemented.

With the current administration and the amount of push back/lobbying that manufacturers, large contractors, not to mention Railroads will do I highly doubt this gets put on the books and implemented in the next decade.

Also I don't disagree with the Tier 4 requirements entirely anyway. I don't like the need to put DPF in Trucks along with Diesel that is just another way to nickel and dime people but without the industry getting a push they will have no reason to improve on the emissions front, and instead just keep fighting on cramming the most horsepower into things as they can.

These pushes help us get more MPG saving us money (not including the cost of DPF which I already said I dislike), helps future generations by hopefully leaving this Earth cleaner than how we found it, and drives innovation to improve manufacturing processes. I think the biggest deal we all have is paying the bill for it and not being able to work on it ourselves.

The latter issue is the manufacturers wanting to force OEM repairs to increase their pocketbooks and blaming government entities for complex components that they don't trust us to mess with.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Implementation will depend entirely on how much of a push the 'greenies' want to make, just like EV's. Tier 4 took a while I agree but Tier 5 won't, at least I don't believe it will because the technology is already there to implement it. Not that it's 100% reliable, because it isn't but that isn't germane.

I think the bottom line in all this is to eliminate the 4 stroke diesel engine entirely and replace it the an'ET'....

Won't happen in my lifetime but it will happen at some point I suspect.

 

[ccoon520]

At the end of the day people don't like change but change happens. We no longer have carburetors that you can rejet in your garage on a saturday because mo powah but you have to spend the time with an OBDII writer to retune the fuel input. Instead we have cars that surpass 175K miles on the regular, and full sized trucks that get 20+ MPG. Now

We don't have the 426 hemi because of emissions standards and fuel shortages in the 70's but now have 392 that outputs more horsepower and gets better fuel economy.

And as far as Electric Vehicles go, if I could get a truck that can go 400 miles at full tow capacity (which Tesla's doesn't but it is an attempt) I'd be at my bank today. They don't have nearly the maintenance list that normal vehicles do, they cost less to "fill up" and I can top it off at my house. Plus you won't find a harder accelerating car for the money than a decent electric one because of how the motors work. The biggest issue I have with EVs is the range and time to charge, but maybe I am an outlier because I think being about to go 0-60 in sub 4 seconds in a vehicle that costs under 100k is cool.

Innovation is driven by necessity and sometimes regulations are that necessity. This country may have been wearing face masks like they do oversees if not for the emissions standards that are being pushed through.

TLDR: Don't worry so much about the DPF systems and tier crap. The equipment will get the work done you want it to. Follow the manual, work your equipment (because if I remember right the DPF burn off will allow you to operate the equipment and do the regen at the same time if you increase the RPMs and as long as you don't constantly hit cancel on running the regen) and warranty will cover the hiccups while the technology is being adopted.

 

[sheepfarmer]

At the end of the day people don't like change but change happens. We no longer have carburetors that you can rejet in your garage on a saturday because mo powah but you have to spend the time with an OBDII writer to retune the fuel input. Instead we have cars that surpass 175K miles on the regular, and full sized trucks that get 20+ MPG. Now

We don't have the 426 hemi because of emissions standards and fuel shortages in the 70's but now have 392 that outputs more horsepower and gets better fuel economy.

And as far as Electric Vehicles go, if I could get a truck that can go 400 miles at full tow capacity (which Tesla's doesn't but it is an attempt) I'd be at my bank today. They don't have nearly the maintenance list that normal vehicles do, they cost less to "fill up" and I can top it off at my house. Plus you won't find a harder accelerating car for the money than a decent electric one because of how the motors work. The biggest issue I have with EVs is the range and time to charge, but maybe I am an outlier because I think being about to go 0-60 in sub 4 seconds in a vehicle that costs under 100k is cool.

Innovation is driven by necessity and sometimes regulations are that necessity. This country may have been wearing face masks like they do oversees if not for the emissions standards that are being pushed through.

TLDR: Don't worry so much about the DPF systems and tier crap. The equipment will get the work done you want it to. Follow the manual, work your equipment (because if I remember right the DPF burn off will allow you to operate the equipment and do the regen at the same time if you increase the RPMs and as long as you don't constantly hit cancel on running the regen) and warranty will cover the hiccups while the technology is being adopted.

I was reading a report from a trucker that was trying out an electric semi. He had just enough charge to haul what he needed across LA in traffic and back, and really liked it, about 6 hours counting time to load if I remember right. So as people think up the workarounds for the charging problem, the EVs will have more utility.

I remember the LA smog from the 60s. Not nice. You couldn't even ride your horse in the suburbs without ruining their lungs.

 

[SidecarFlip]

The problem is, is where the juice is coming from and at what cost and if the existing grid will support the additional load.

EV people tend to discount all those factors because they are not convenient to their narrative.

My cousin has a Tesla and he loves it. Me, I think it's a nice car (I've driven it) but want one, no way. You are tethered to that charging cord. He has to plan his travels by where Supercharging stations are located at and it's not like filling up your vehicle at the pump, a Supercharging station 'fill up' takes at least 30 minutes and overnight if plugged in at home (or here) when he visits and I plug him into a 220 outlet.

Finally, until the technology ramps up to the point where battery life is consistent with real time scenario's. electric semi's will only be a curiosity. No way can you run over the road on a 6 hour duty cycle.

Hydrogen fuel cells are a much more viable alternative but the refueling has it's own set of issues. Might come about in the future but not in my lifetime or yours Sheepfarmer. For now we are shackled to the internal combustion engine, diesel or gasoline. Accept that and move on.

 

[ccoon520]

The problem is, is where the juice is coming from and at what cost and if the existing grid will support the additional load.

EV people tend to discount all those factors because they are not convenient to their narrative.

My cousin has a Tesla and he loves it. Me, I think it's a nice car (I've driven it) but want one, no way. You are tethered to that charging cord. He has to plan his travels by where Supercharging stations are located at and it's not like filling up your vehicle at the pump, a Supercharging station 'fill up' takes at least 30 minutes and overnight if plugged in at home (or here) when he visits and I plug him into a 220 outlet.

Finally, until the technology ramps up to the point where battery life is consistent with real time scenario's. electric semi's will only be a curiosity. No way can you run over the road on a 6 hour duty cycle.

Hydrogen fuel cells are a much more viable alternative but the refueling has it's own set of issues. Might come about in the future but not in my lifetime or yours Sheepfarmer. For now we are shackled to the internal combustion engine, diesel or gasoline. Accept that and move on.

Additional "Juice" can be produced. I am a strong advocate for Nuclear Energy but that scares a lot of people because they see movies and hear about Chernobyl and think that it will bring the apocalypse.

I agree the range is trash and recharge times are too long but remember 15 years ago when you were lucky to get 100 miles and the recharge time was 8 hours? Now you get more than double the mileage in 6.25% of that time.

The improvement in new technologies takes leaps and bounds as new processes and discoveries are made/invented. In 1901 flying from Omaha to Chicago is one jump would have been scoffed at but by 1944 Jet turbines were pushing aircraft to huge speeds and by 1969 we were landing on the moon.

In probably less than half your lifetime computers went from being the size of a room and costing hundreds of thousands to in your pocket connected to the rest of the world.

I wouldn't doubt what the US Industry can do in short order when they want to. Since Tesla wants to compete with the Big 3 they are pressed to make their stuff better if they want to stay alive.

 

[skeets]

You may well be right, I however will stick with the thump of a big block MOPAR or HD, over the whizz of an electric motor.
I can put a gas fire out, not so much with a battery fire,, been there done that and trust me it aint no picnic!

 

[beex]

the recharge problem can easily be solved by developing standardized battery packs, standard connectors, standard battery bays, swapped from the bottom of the car. You don’t own the battery. You pay for battery supplier, like at an exon station, to give you a battery charged with what ever KWhrs you want. what it runs out, stop at a station, swap out the pack in about 3 minutes.




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[ccoon520]

You may well be right, I however will stick with the thump of a big block MOPAR or HD, over the whizz of an electric motor.
I can put a gas fire out, not so much with a battery fire,, been there done that and trust me it aint no picnic!

Now don't get me wrong. I do love cars. I love all cars from hybrids like the 918 to electric like the model S to the monsters that dodge looks at and thinks 'I bet we can fit 800 hp in that' and promptly drops in a v8 with a whipple.

If I could I would own all those cars but the point that I am trying to get across is that times change and we shouldn't just go Bah Humbug because it is something new. Or because a friend of a friend of my second wife's third cousin once had a clogged DPF on their L3901 so this tier four stuff is garbage is just bad reasoning to say all tier 4 is crap.

If you want to complain that you now have to put DEF fluid into your units and that is an added cost by all means that is a fair gripe. If you want to complain that you can't work on your own tractor anymore because of the electronics go ahead but remember that that is a call made by the Manufacturer on the Gov't. If you want to complain about environmental regs stomping all over your personal freedoms of burning tires in your driveway like a true American would just remember a little ways in the past when cities would have smog attacks, and more and more kids got asthma because of it.

Just because the easy way is the way is to not change doesn't mean that we should keep going that way.

We only have one life and one Earth as of 2020. We should do what we can to leave it a cleaner and better place than when we were brought into it. Even though it is hard and seems like we aren't making any meaningful progress we can at least move the needle.

 

[SidecarFlip]

the recharge problem can easily be solved by developing standardized battery packs, standard connectors, standard battery bays, swapped from the bottom of the car. You don’t own the battery. You pay for battery supplier, like at an exon station, to give you a battery charged with what ever KWhrs you want. what it runs out, stop at a station, swap out the pack in about 3 minutes.




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Yea, sort of like not owning a John Deere.....

 

[SidecarFlip]

You may well be right, I however will stick with the thump of a big block MOPAR or HD, over the whizz of an electric motor.
I can put a gas fire out, not so much with a battery fire,, been there done that and trust me it aint no picnic!

Take solace that it won't happen in our lifetimes anyway and once I'm planted or roasted, I won't give a hoot anymore and candidly, I don't really care now. I read all the EV phooey and think to myself..... Fine and continue on with my life.

...and, lets stay on topic which is what is going to happen with the tractors concerning the electronics and the emission mandates, not EV's Stick to topic or I'll lock the thread. I am the OP after all.

 

[SDT]

the recharge problem can easily be solved by developing standardized battery packs, standard connectors, standard battery bays, swapped from the bottom of the car. You don***8217;t own the battery. You pay for battery supplier, like at an exon station, to give you a battery charged with what ever KWhrs you want. what it runs out, stop at a station, swap out the pack in about 3 minutes.




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"[E]asily?" Are you serious?

Have you even considered the logistics and environmental issues associated with what you are advocating?

Not to mention the enormous costs....

SDT

 

[SidecarFlip]

"[E]asily?" Are you serious?

Have you even considered the logistics and environmental issues associated with what you are advocating?

Not to mention the enormous costs....

SDT

Of course not SDT. It's all 'plug and play' with the EV crowd.

 

[beex]

"[E]asily?" Are you serious?

Have you even considered the logistics and environmental issues associated with what you are advocating?

Not to mention the enormous costs....

SDT

yes , I am serious, this is being discussed in the industry.

What additional environmental impact does swappable batteries have over non swappalbe batteries?

In fact it will probably reduce the environmental impact. The charging problem needs to solved for EV to work. Fast Charge is not the answer, that wears out the battery, it’s not good, requiring more battery manufacturing, more cost to the consumer, more pollution.

Why is the logistics any worse than the logistics of having gas stations all over the place with a long complicated fuel supply, refinery... and delivery system? We freaking fight wars to protect that supply system. Talk about cost.

What’s the difference? That system didn’t exist in the stone age, it needed to get built, with lots of problems solved over time. The problems in that system are solved, so you didn’t live through it, it was done before you were born. Driving gas cars any further than your local neighborhood back in 1903 was more of a logistical problem than the EVs are today. Should that infrastructure not have been built because it was too hard?

The build out of the infrastructure to support swappable batteries is a lot easier than the build out of the fuel distribution infrastructure was back then that’s for sure.


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[SDT]

yes , I am serious, this is being discussed in the industry.

What additional environmental impact does swappable batteries have over non swappalbe batteries?

In fact it will probably reduce the environmental impact. The charging problem needs to solved for EV to work. Fast Charge is not the answer, that wears out the battery, it’s not good, requiring more battery manufacturing, more cost to the consumer, more pollution.

Why is the logistics any worse than the logistics of having gas stations all over the place with a long complicated fuel supply, refinery... and delivery system? We freaking fight wars to protect that supply system. Talk about cost.

What’s the difference? That system didn’t exist in the stone age, it needed to get built, with lots of problems solved over time. The problems in that system are solved, so you didn’t live through it, it was done before you were born. Driving gas cars any further than your local neighborhood back in 1903 was more of a logistical problem than the EVs are today. Should that infrastructure not have been built because it was too hard?

The build out of the infrastructure to support swappable batteries is a lot easier than the build out of the fuel distribution infrastructure was back then that’s for sure.


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The costs, environmental issues, and logistics of useable battery powered vehicles, swappable batteries or otherwise are enormous. I do not wish to pay such costs.

We already have gasoline stations.

If and when technology advances to the point that such changes can be made without government intervention, I have no objections so long as such is done exclusively by the private sector as was the development of the systems that currently provide perfectly acceptable automotive transportation using gasoline.

Curiously, when did the US fight "wars" to protect US gasoline supplies?

SDT

 

[beex]

The private sector is developing EV on their own, spending billions. It will be cheaper than gas cars in the long run. If you buy a F150 today, or in recent years, sorry, your paying for it. The ridiculous profit from that over priced product is being spent on EV development. Ford has dumped $5B in to argo. Yea, Yea, your probably going to say, they are being supported by tax breaks on EV cars. That’s peanuts compared to what the oil industry is getting, and has gotten over the years and what the private industry is investing regardless of tax support. Which is ending now. The oil industry got billions for decades. No comparison.

OMG, Every war in the mid-east is about oil, we are trying to stabilize to keep the economy and our way of life. Africa is a messed up or worse than the mid-east, but we don’t get involved because we don’t give a rat’s ass because they don’t have oil. The mid-east has always messed up and we didn’t give a rat’s ass until recent times. First the UK pre-WWI, up to WWII, BP oil. Now it’s our turn. Even though we don’t buy mid-east oil, and we now export, oil is a world market. They have a lot of control of the world market and our economy. If that wasn’t true, we wouldn’t give a rat’s ass and wouldn’t be there.


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[SidecarFlip]

The costs, environmental issues, and logistics of useable battery powered vehicles, swappable batteries or otherwise are enormous. I do not wish to pay such costs.

We already have gasoline stations.

If and when technology advances to the point that such changes can be made without government intervention, I have no objections so long as such is done exclusively by the private sector as was the development of the systems that currently provide perfectly acceptable automotive transportation using gasoline.

Curiously, when did the US fight "wars" to protect US gasoline supplies?

SDT

Curious as well. Must have missed that somewhere along the line

 

[ccoon520]

The costs, environmental issues, and logistics of useable battery powered vehicles, swappable batteries or otherwise are enormous. I do not wish to pay such costs.

We already have gasoline stations.

If and when technology advances to the point that such changes can be made without government intervention, I have no objections so long as such is done exclusively by the private sector as was the development of the systems that currently provide perfectly acceptable automotive transportation using gasoline.

Curiously, when did the US fight "wars" to protect US gasoline supplies?

SDT

Yes we do already have gasoline stations, so what these companies would do would be to offer gas stations to work as battery exchanges as well. it would be and add on to their current building, would not need underground tanks, pumps or the regulations that come with. They would need banks with independent fire resistant recharging cells for the batteries, but their main cost would then be electricity to recharge them and to replenish bad battery supplies. Which if spread out across thousands of people it would substantially reduce the cost of them especially since there would probably be more referb than recycle on them anyway.

And to answer your question about going to war over gasoline do you remember Desert Storm?

"One of the West's main concerns was the significant threat Iraq posed to Saudi Arabia. Following Kuwait's conquest, the Iraqi Army was within easy striking distance of Saudi oil fields. Control of these fields, along with Kuwaiti and Iraqi reserves, would have given Saddam control over the majority of the world's oil reserves." --https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War

 

[GeoHorn]

Curious as well. Must have missed that somewhere along the line

Are you guys KIDDING?

Go back to World War Two and learn about North Africa, Rumania/Ploesti, the German invasion of southern Russia and how we instigated relations with Saudi Arabia King Ibn Saud and the Shah of Iran.

...

 

[SDT]

The private sector is developing EV on their own, spending billions. It will be cheaper than gas cars in the long run. If you buy a F150 today, or in recent years, sorry, your paying for it. The ridiculous profit from that over priced product is being spent on EV development. Ford has dumped $5B in to argo. Yea, Yea, your probably going to say, they are being supported by tax breaks on EV cars. That***8217;s peanuts compared to what the oil industry is getting, and has gotten over the years and what the private industry is investing regardless of tax support. Which is ending now. The oil industry got billions for decades. No comparison.

OMG, Every war in the mid-east is about oil, we are trying to stabilize to keep the economy and our way of life. Africa is a messed up or worse than the mid-east, but we don***8217;t get involved because we don***8217;t give a rat***8217;s ass because they don***8217;t have oil. The mid-east has always messed up and we didn***8217;t give a rat***8217;s ass until recent times. First the UK pre-WWI, up to WWII, BP oil. Now it***8217;s our turn. Even though we don***8217;t buy mid-east oil, and we now export, oil is a world market. They have a lot of control of the world market and our economy. If that wasn***8217;t true, we wouldn***8217;t give a rat***8217;s ass and wouldn***8217;t be there.


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Once again, what "wars" did the US fight to protect US gasoline supplies?

You said it. I did not.

In reality, nearly all mid-east wars have been fought about ideology rather than oil, and this has been going on for thousands of years, long before oil had any economic value.

SDT