G5200 with front mount debris blower...losing rpm....too much for engine?

[73blazer]

SO I picked up a New Holland 708D debris blower for a very fair price. It is exactly the same as the F2535D debris blower for F-Series mowers. It has the quick attach mount and was already converted to electric nozzle rotation, and I have the quick mount front hitch for my G5200 which I run a G2003 blade and G2546 snow blower on it, no problems running these implements.

I figured this debris blower might be a bit much for this G5200 and my fear was confirmed when I hooked it up. It runs it, but what happens it is won't reach full RPM and blows alot of black smoke. Basically I engage PTO very slowly, then crank up the RPM's, about 2/3's of the way up, no more RPM's are to be had as you keep moving the throttle up and it just starts blowing smoke. It's spinning it decently, but when I disengage the PTO at full throttle it jumps up to full RPM. So under load it's lost RPM and blowing smoke. How many RPM does it lose, I dunno, but my guess is at least a couple hundred.

I knew it was a crapshoot when buying it, but if there's something I can do to make it work, i'd give it a go.
The guy I bought it from had it on a G1800 (16hp) and it didn't seem to lose RPM on that machine but I wasn't paying that much attention to that, i just wanted to see the blower work, supposedly that only 2 more hp engine than my 14hp G5200. The lowest HP F-series kubota put this blower on was a 20hp.

SO far I've thought of these options (in no particular order):

1. Turn up fuel bolt. Not sure if this will help, if it's already blowing smoke i would surmise this would just make it blow more smoke. Thoughts on this?
2. There is room to play with pulley sizes. On the blower, the PTO input is currently on a 6" dual v-belt pully. The upper driven pullys connected to the actual fan is 5.5" I could swap some pulley(s) to make it so it spins the fan disc a bit slower thought being reducing the net hp required. Pushing air goes up cubed as RPM goes up , so this could potentially help it quite a bit. I wouldn't get the full rated CFM from the blower, i dunnoo what it is but that blower will blow you over, so a little less is fine for my needs. Thoughts on best pully setups to reduce load on the engine?
3. Turbo the D600 motor. I find no "kits", but plenty of people have turbo'd their similar 3cyl kubota diesels with various turbo's out there.
4. Swap out the D600 motor for something a bit bigger in the series like 662 or 722?
5. Get a g1800 or g1900
6. Call it the old college try and sell the debris blower.
7. Run it as is? Not sure that not getting full rpm and rolling coal under heavy load for a good period of time is good for the longevity of the motor.

Obviously options 3,4,5 will cost a significant amount of $$$$ and not sure it's really worth it. A g1900 would nice but finding the male quick front hitch that goes on the machine is a royal pita, they are almost non-existent and those with them tend to hold on to them. The pulley thing seems like it might work, but I'd have to really do alot of math to dial it in to that engine and am unsure if it will really work or not.

Any suggestions on things I can do to make it work for this G5200 D600 engine?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

The smallest New Holland MC that that unit came on was a 22HP model, so your WAYYYYY OFF of that number.

Turning fuel up, turbo charging / super charging it, or resetting pulleys to turn it slower ain't going to cut it, there is no substitute for raw HP / Torque.

Putting a larger engine in the G might do it, but really In my humble opinion it's a huge waste of time and $$$.

Just buy a F unit and run it properly, and mow and blow a heck of alot faster than a G.

 

[RCW]

I agree with Wolfman's recommendations. Sounds like it's just more than your G wants to run.

Only thing I would add is to give the blower a good once-over/service just to make sure there isn't something binding up/running harder than it needs to.

But I'm guessing you've already covered that ground.

 

[73blazer]

I found an engineering manual that dsicusses HP RPM and CFM for sizing motors for various fans.
Basically it starts out by saying "Few technicians realize the large amount of increase in HP required for even small gains in CFM or increase in RPM. "

LIke I said, the relationship is cubic. The exact formula is this:

New HP=Existing HPx((new rpm/old rpm)^3)


Lets say Rated min. hp is 20hp for it's rated CFM (since kubota put it on a 20hp machine).
So, the output PTO is 3200.
Right now my drive pulley is 5.5 and driven pulley is 6. So that gives the fan disk at 3490rpm.

If I just swap the pulleys, new fan rpm is 2933, using the above formula, would only require a 11-12hp motor. with only a ~10% drop in CFM

I agree with you it's too big for the machine. But..looking at the math, it seems it's possible to reduce the hp required by pulley's
If it was a tiller or or snowblower yeah I'd just say it's too big. But since we're just dealing with air here, I can deal with 10% less CFM, or at least an amount of CFM that a 14hp diesel can move, which is still ALOT!

I think a little more research required, but I think I can dial this in for 14hp.

 

[73blazer]

Heres those formulas plugged into an excel. 20 hp line is the baseline as it is known (or guestimated based on available data)

HP	RPM	CFM
30.10	3500.00	4354.94
27.60	3400.00	4230.52
25.23	3300.00	4106.09
23.01	3200.00	3981.66
20.92	3100.00	3857.24
20.00	3054.00	3800.00
18.96	3000.00	3732.81
17.12	2900.00	3608.38
15.41	2800.00	3483.96
13.82	2700.00	3359.53
12.34	2600.00	3235.10
10.97	2500.00	3110.67
9.71	2400.00	2986.25
8.54	2300.00	2861.82
7.48	2200.00	2737.39
6.50	2100.00	2612.97
5.62	2000.00	2488.54
4.82	1900.00	2364.11
4.09	1800.00	2239.69
3.45	1700.00	2115.26
2.88	1600.00	1990.83

*EDIT* I adjusted the RPM because I realized the machine's PTO wasn't 1 to 1 off the engine. Engine is 3200rpm, drive pulley is 3.75 and driven is 4.25 (approx). So PTO RPM is 2800 rpm or so. So that's the new implements input drive rpm. With it's current pulley setup fan rpm is about 3054rpm.

According to this, I should be able to size some pulleys to get the fan disc down to 2700 rpm or so and presto, I have all the available CFM a 14hp motor can do for that impeller size/design.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

What we have here is:
Math world, compared to real world... Good luck getting them to match.

I'll bet in your calculations, you didn't add for drag of the bearings or universal joints, or air density or any other real world factors.

 

[73blazer]

What we have here is:
Math world, compared to real world... Good luck getting them to match.

I'll bet in you calculations, you didn't add for drag of the bearings or universal joints, or air density or any other real world factors.

No, but the original designers did, so if 20hp was the min required, that number should take all that into account, and was the baseline in my charts. Yes there are other variables like coefficient of efficiency of the fan etc. And numbers probably don't play out well on the far ends of the scale due to that, but if it's not that far off, which I don't think it really is..i think it might just work.

It appears the pulleys on the implement can simply be swapped upper for lower. That'll put the fan disk @ 2575 RPM which according to the math should require a 11-11.5hp motor to operate. That's free and fairly simple to try out. I'll give that a go when I get some time.

 

[dlundblad]

Just sell the debris blower and get a back pack leaf blower.

I have seen guys with Wheel Horses rig up a fan on the front thats just pulley driven. Im sure something like this is possible on the G... you just need a pulley 90 degrees from the PTO pulley. The fan setups ive seen have the pulley parallel with the length of the tractor as is the tractors powered pulley.

I would not turbo the D600 or so an engine swap etc. A G 18/1900 wont have much more power.. not for what youre planning anyways.

 

[73blazer]

I have a Stihl BR600 backpack blower. It works great. However, the yard is simply too big for it. 4 acres of wooded lawn if you let it go too long it's too much for the backpack blower. Basically have to do every other day walks during the fall, at 1.5hrs/ea. This is why I wanted a bigger blower. I wasn't gonna pay $3k for one, but a few hundred bucks...no problem . 14hp blower beats 3!!!

To be clear, I'm not trying to rig new pulleys to the thing. The blower is driven directly off the G5200's front PTO and fits into it's quick hitch. The blower already has two dual groove pulleys on it currently setup to gear up. I'm just gonna swap them to gear down, so input (PTO) can spin faster, and output (fan disk) spins slower, thus letting input RPM's up and requiring less HP to spin the fan disk. I think it's definitely worth trying to swap pulleys. No harm no foul there. I might be able to try that later this afternoon.

 

[dlundblad]

Is this a front or rear mount thing? Just curious what the quick hitch is.

Can you post photos?

 

[73blazer]

It's a front mount hitch as per the title of the post. Factory option from kubota to mount a snowblower, blade or sweeper of which I have the first two. The male hitch part itself ( Kinda like a 2 inch receiver for a truck .....the part that attaches to the truck is custom, but the 2" receiver part is standard. In this case, the male quick hitch part is fairly standard across manufacturers. ) is somewhat std across many manufacturers. So other attachments with the female quick hitch from other manufacturers can fit on, like this debris blower, making them work properly is another story. My G5200 also has a cat 0 3pt. THis link has another pic with the snow blower on it.

So..I swapped the pulleys. ....i'd be the first to admit defeat. But..in this case. Swapping pulleys worked.....PERFECTLY! I can spin to full engine RPM, no more rolling coal!! According to my chart I'm probably on the low end now, but I can swap out one of the pulleys for a specific size to bring it into the 12-13hp required range.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg9nm1vG56Q&feature=youtu.be


Giddy up. Now all I have to do is wire a momentary switch for the chute rotator motor and I'll have one sweet blower!!!

 

[dlundblad]

It's a front mount hitch as per the title of the post. Factory option from kubota to mount a snowblower, blade or sweeper of which I have the first two. The male hitch part itself ( Kinda like a 2 inch receiver for a truck .....the part that attaches to the truck is custom, but the 2" receiver part is standard. In this case, the male quick hitch part is fairly standard across manufacturers. ) is somewhat std across many manufacturers. So other attachments with the female quick hitch from other manufacturers can fit on, like this debris blower, making them work properly is another story. My G5200 also has a cat 0 3pt. THis link has another pic with the snow blower on it.

So..I swapped the pulleys. ....i'd be the first to admit defeat. But..in this case. Swapping pulleys worked.....PERFECTLY! I can spin to full engine RPM, no more rolling coal!! According to my chart I'm probably on the low end now, but I can swap out one of the pulleys for a specific size to bring it into the 12-13hp required range.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg9nm1vG56Q&feature=youtu.be


Giddy up. Now all I have to do is wire a momentary switch for the chute rotator motor and I'll have one sweet blower!!!

Thanks for the clarification. Your profile says 3 point blower and you were referring to the mount as a quick hitch. Sounds like an interesting setup. I have a blade, but it is just a frame that attaches to the rear hitch and the mower deck lift arms. Your setup sounds much beefier.

Good on you for getting it going. Thats one clean looking G too. I sure wish I had a blower for mine.

We need a leaf action video now.

 

[73blazer]

Here's the hitch with no attachment.


And an idea of what the female part on the implement looks like. And the pulleys in this implement.

 

[200mph]

Maybe it looks like this!

 

[73blazer]

Maybe it looks like this!

Ha. I don't think thats OSHA approved.

 

[William1]

I'd certainly try the swapping pulleys. Nothing to loose but time and you already have some in on the device. If it works, you can then try to increase the pressure by messing with the nozzle, swapping CFM for pressure.

 

[DustyRusty]

It kind of sounds like an old air raid siren...

 

[200mph]

Ha. I don't think thats OSHA approved.

They had it on display at the local county fair. I though it was a joke, but they were offering it for sale.

 

[73blazer]

Finally wired up my dual relay's with flyback diodes to do the chute rotator.

Took her out for a spin finally today and not that it really needed itt..but I cleaned up the spring sticks and acorns and leaves and driveway dust. Works really well!!!!
When there is 4" of leaves on this yard and my two 400' driveways, this will be the ticket!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Kgme3wiUw

 

[bird dogger]

Finally wired up my dual relay's with flyback diodes to do the chute rotator.

Took her out for a spin finally today and not that it really needed itt..but I cleaned up the spring sticks and acorns and leaves and driveway dust. Works really well!!!!
When there is 4" of leaves on this yard and my two 400' driveways, this will be the ticket!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Kgme3wiUw

Nice jog on the retrofit!! Tractor powered leaf/debris blowers rule!! My old Agrimetal pto powered blower has been in use for over 20 years and it's always ready to go. Keep them well lubed and they'll last forever. And you are definitely right....they are the ticket!

Regards,
David