I was told by a Kubota employee today that Kubota is temporarily suspending production of M5 and M6 tractors until they can solve some emission issues involving the DEF tank and sensors in the SCR system. I can't confirm that he is correct, but my 2018 M5-111 has been in the shop for a month now with the issue that is part of the problem. I'll elaborate if anyone is interested.
Kubota M5 and M6 production
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North Idaho Wolfman
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There were some japanese engineers out here a few months ago going to different folks' places and looking at their tractors, how they're used, where they're stored, how much they're used, and a ton of other things. This is info I got from someone I know who owns an M5-111HDC-24 and an M5-091. I had not heard anything more about it at this point.
Just got my M5-111 back today after 4 weeks in the dealer's shop. They did $5600 worth of work on it under warranty. The problem starts when the display registers Diagnostic Trouble Code P-206A, which basically is saying your DEF is bad. (Reductant quality) It starts a 120 minute countdown timer until your power output will be cut to 50%. Problem is that draining and replacing your DEF doesn't fix the problem. I tried that first. Apparently the location of the DEF tank causes heat to build up in the DEF and destroys your sensors, header assy, and your DEF. Their "fix" is to install a insulation kit around the DEF tank. I'm not convinced that this problem won't re-occur after a couple hundred hours down the road. I only have 225 hours on the tractor now. If the fix was that simple, why are they suspending production of M5's and M6's? It's got me worried, for sure. Any thoughts?
$5600 for warranty repair.
Now imagine that after the 5 year emission warranty is up, you'd have had to eat that, and it would have been more than $5600.
This is one of many reasons that I think it's time for Kubota to think about a GAS tractor. The engines are already there just waiting to be used; at least for the smaller tractors. I am thinking a sub 40hp gas burning standard L series might sell pretty decent, possibly a 32hp B series gas as well since they already have a gas engine (ala ZG332/WG1005) which makes MORE torque and horsepower than the D1005 (diesel), with much quieter operation, less vibration (a LOT less) and less expensive. That's only one example....they have other engines available too and obviously the technology to make it happen. It's time, IMO. After all, UPS local delivery trucks are ALL gas burners now (at least in this area)--they are 6.0 GM engines. You'd think that if diesel was so awesome, they (UPS) would be running them, but the maintenance and repair costs involved make it cost prohibitive. The only downside to the gas UPS trucks is that I can't hear them pull up the driveway now.
Now imagine that after the 5 year emission warranty is up, you'd have had to eat that, and it would have been more than $5600.
This is one of many reasons that I think it's time for Kubota to think about a GAS tractor. The engines are already there just waiting to be used; at least for the smaller tractors. I am thinking a sub 40hp gas burning standard L series might sell pretty decent, possibly a 32hp B series gas as well since they already have a gas engine (ala ZG332/WG1005) which makes MORE torque and horsepower than the D1005 (diesel), with much quieter operation, less vibration (a LOT less) and less expensive. That's only one example....they have other engines available too and obviously the technology to make it happen. It's time, IMO. After all, UPS local delivery trucks are ALL gas burners now (at least in this area)--they are 6.0 GM engines. You'd think that if diesel was so awesome, they (UPS) would be running them, but the maintenance and repair costs involved make it cost prohibitive. The only downside to the gas UPS trucks is that I can't hear them pull up the driveway now.
I've been predicting the reappearance of gasoline powered tractors and other equipment for some time now. The HD PU market is already experiencing the resurgence of gasoline engines.
Thanks, feds.
SDT
Two years ago we bought a new Grasshopper zero turn. We went with a Kubota gas engine, not the diesel. It's a Kubota 29HP .
The dealer said he was selling a lot more gas powered machines then diesel. One reason was the 26 HP limit before the EPA demands had to be met. Others he mentioned were vibration and maintenance cost.
The dealer said he was selling a lot more gas powered machines then diesel. One reason was the 26 HP limit before the EPA demands had to be met. Others he mentioned were vibration and maintenance cost.
I'm in the same boat. I bought an M5-091 two and a half years ago. Within a year, I got the error code and took it in for a new DEF header. It was fine until last week, when I got the same error code. It's in the shop now getting a second new DEF header. The shop tells me that the header part number has changed, which means that at least Kubota has done some redesign work on it. Fingers crossed it holds up this time. If not, I expect I'll be doing a DEF delete as soon as the warranty runs out.
When the gas engine tractor returns sign me up. Until then I'll keep my B2620 and my antiques.
The government has killed diesel. All the school buses and ambulances here have replaced their whole fleets from diesel to gas engines.
Imagine how bad that is when you replace HUNDREDS of fleet vehicles all in one year.
The government has killed diesel. All the school buses and ambulances here have replaced their whole fleets from diesel to gas engines.
Imagine how bad that is when you replace HUNDREDS of fleet vehicles all in one year.
+2 on my pre tier 3 engines. I dislike the complexity and unreliability of T4 final engines in general. Not just Kubota either, it's all of them including the green ones.
Considering the power output and torque curves of modern emission compliant gas engines, I can see a swing toward gas tractors coming about just like the old days. Besides, gasoline is much less expensive though it should be the other way around.
The emissions police ruined the diesel that Rudolph Diesel designed to be an efficient, reliable engine.
Considering the power output and torque curves of modern emission compliant gas engines, I can see a swing toward gas tractors coming about just like the old days. Besides, gasoline is much less expensive though it should be the other way around.
The emissions police ruined the diesel that Rudolph Diesel designed to be an efficient, reliable engine.
Gas engines have ethanol problems, are noisier and less power at the low end. New diesels have computer and sensor problems. I want neither in my tractor.
The kubota 3 cyl gas engines are MUCH quieter than the diesels, run way smoother, make more power in some cases too. Way more power. Ethanol in itself is not a problem if the systems are designed for it. It's the entire fuel blend that caused problems. Everything built in the last 10-12 years is mostly problem free with E10 oxygenated fuels. The issue lies when people neglect them. Let them sit. And that's what tractors do a lot of times. I'd just as soon go fire up the tractor once a week and circulate some fuel than have to fork out $10,000 when the DEF system fails. Or $6500 when I have to put new injunktors and supply pump in my little L3901 because diesel fuel you get from the pump is garbage, needs to be filtered and needs to be "dried out" (water). Since I own both gas and diesel vehicles I can tell yall first hand that diesel is kinda nice until it's time to work on it. My truck? I gotta put about $6000 into the engine (injectors/cups/fuel system repairs)....and the truck might sell for $6500 if it ran properly. Doesn't make any sense. And it's not a "new" diesel either (2003). But the gas powered truck still runs absolutely perfect and has more miles on it. And it starts easier idles better and gets the same fuel mileage, well within 1mpg.
When gas engines can produce twice the torque as horsepower like the diesel engines in my trucks and tractors I'll consider switching back to gas engines in everything. Until then I'll be deleting all the EPA mandated crap the day the warranties run out.
The dealer has spent $10,878.41 replacing my M5-111 Tier4 emissions parts. My tractor is had 4 DEF Headers, 2 DEF Injector Kits, and the tinfoil cover fix. I just got it out of the shop and the latest DEF header and injector under PSB-2020-142 Repairs A &B are supposed to be the final fix for my issues. Time will tell I guess.
See the chart below.
See the chart below.
I’m glad you got your tractor back, and hope the fix is a fix.
Kind of a shame to me how they worked hard to remove the efficiency and simplicity of diesel engines for the sake of reducing polutions. It seems there were other ways to make the engines burn cleaner. Maybe not as clean, but less than they would have been with no changes.
If you turbo or dual turbo a gasoline engine, it can have a lot of power even at low displacement. Look to the F150 Ecoboost for an example. TFL trucks did a towing test and surpisingly the small diesel didn’t beat the small gasoline engines even on MPG even at elevation.
After an experience with a DPF truck, I decided not to deal with a DPF in with a tractor. That’s one of the reasons why I have a L2501 instead of a tractor with more HP.
It seems like most of the last few innovations for diesels are really expensive when they fail. I also wouldn’t be surprised if gasoline doesn’t make a comeback in tractors.
Kind of a shame to me how they worked hard to remove the efficiency and simplicity of diesel engines for the sake of reducing polutions. It seems there were other ways to make the engines burn cleaner. Maybe not as clean, but less than they would have been with no changes.
If you turbo or dual turbo a gasoline engine, it can have a lot of power even at low displacement. Look to the F150 Ecoboost for an example. TFL trucks did a towing test and surpisingly the small diesel didn’t beat the small gasoline engines even on MPG even at elevation.
After an experience with a DPF truck, I decided not to deal with a DPF in with a tractor. That’s one of the reasons why I have a L2501 instead of a tractor with more HP.
It seems like most of the last few innovations for diesels are really expensive when they fail. I also wouldn’t be surprised if gasoline doesn’t make a comeback in tractors.
Personally I just want it to work properly. I prefer diesel because I can store it easier than gas and don't have to worry about it exploding if the top is left off. I have a 5x6 bailer and takes some torque to spin it so I am hoping they solved it.
When gas engines can produce twice the torque as horsepower like the diesel engines in my trucks and tractors I'll consider switching back to gas engines in everything. Until then I'll be deleting all the EPA mandated crap the day the warranties run out.
they already do. Look at Kubota's gas engines. They ARE diesel engines, but with different internals and different cyl head. Quieter, MUCH smoother, makes more torque than the diesel counterpart in some cases. IMO convert them to high pressure DI or EFI (either one, with EFI being cheaper/easier to make and maintain) with no turbo and they'll be a serious contender. Or throw a turbo on it and your torque and horsepower potentially doubles. That in itself is not possible with current diesels. You can't take a n/a kubota diesel and toss a turbo on it and double it's output. Most, with a turbo might make 2-20hp more depending on the size of the engine.
The 1/2 ton pickup market has taken notice of the diesel engine. They built a bunch of them but they can't sell them so now they're ditching production of them and focusing on electric and gasoline. The cost to buy/own/maintain/operate a 1/2 ton diesel vs the lack of power with them is what is hurting that market. Just as I have been saying for the years that people keep saying "I want a 1/2 ton diesel". Those same "buyers" get sticker shocked. Then the few that do buy don't keep them very long and go back to gas in many cases. Those little 3.0L diesels look good on paper but they are TURDS. Nissan uses a larger 5.0L diesel but it is also a slug in comparison to a 3.5 even the little 2.7 turbo engine. My neighbor has one and I drive it somewhat often. He's losing his eyesight so I drive him occasionally to/from his lake house. 5.0L cummins. Turd. MPG isn't stellar either. The epa destroyed the diesel engine and carb has even more stringent standards coming. I believe that if carb actually goes through with it, the us epa "usually" follows suit at the federal level, and if that happens the nail will be driven into the coffin. it's already started.