And this is why fishing is gonna suck this year
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Sitting here at 4:20am laughing like a fool trying not to wake the wife up. Thanks for that one skeets, great start to the day.Now Timmy I wish you wouldnt hold things in like this,,,one day your gona explode
Yes.. I am damn narrow minded about sharing my livestock with predators, when there are successful management practices available or in place before the tofu crowd came to power.Sitting here at 4:20am laughing like a fool trying not to wake the wife up. Thanks for that one skeets, great start to the day.
Unfortunately it has been too many years since Wildlife Biology classes, and it was said first class day, your biggest problem will be people running on emotion, not good science. This is the one nerve I have left and at this age it is mighty thin. BB... You know exactly what is what.
What really gets me pissed is when people tell me to just let it go there's nothing you can do about it. Well if we all stand together and become informed yes there is something we can do.
It's those consumed by progressivism that need a reality check but, as is the case with any fundamentalist religion, there is no room for rational discussion.
shootem604
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The farmers in my area do this with black bears... They get into the berry patches and won't leave, get "drunk" on corn and flatten acres, and are hell on bee hives, even with electric fences. They've done well in part due to the increased back country "users" who dump their garbage and attract more bears, or feed them, and poachers who leave massive amounts of useable meat, or strip roe from fish and leave the carcasses.
My first "job" I ever did with my tractor was haul out almost a dumpster worth of garbage from the bush across the road from me... We have 130ish provincial conservation officers for the whole province. Local office has 1 guy, is supposed to have 4, and could actually use a dozen, considering his area has a population of over a million people and an area the size of the Netherlands. We do have federal wildlife and fisheries too, but they tend not to venture as far out as I am.
Even from back in the 1960s, Wildlife Biology classes said too many people confuse and or don't understand the terms preservation and conservation.
Fact is there are management plans to fit both those words. But they don't necessarily mean no harvest of the resource as part of the plan.
Why do people demand the science be done, usually in the terms "you got to do something" but ignore the facts of the science when it comes time to implement a management plan ?
Answer.... Again... They usually don't have to live with the consequences of there decisions and demands.
Rant off.
Fact is there are management plans to fit both those words. But they don't necessarily mean no harvest of the resource as part of the plan.
Why do people demand the science be done, usually in the terms "you got to do something" but ignore the facts of the science when it comes time to implement a management plan ?
Answer.... Again... They usually don't have to live with the consequences of there decisions and demands.
Rant off.
Actually Tim, your rant reminded me of one (several actually) of my pet peeves...we have or at least had, a fine education system that would allow kids to learn some biology, math, physics, enough to make sense of the world we live in. Either folks avoid those subjects (too hard, or oo ick, or godknows what other excuse) or they haven't a clue as to how to apply that information. I got no use for people like that. I don't have too much use for people that can't forward think to what the consequences of a particular act are either. Your rant reminded me.
About 30 years ago I went to a meeting on the MSU campus where the public was invited to comment on a plan to introduce wolves back into the UP of Michigan. A whole room full of folks wanting to have wolves running free and wild, how wonderful! Virtually none of those people actually lived in the UP. But true or not the impression was that it had unlimited wilderness. None raised livestock (except me). Minnesota was already having problems with wolf predation on livestock, and management of the problem seemed unsuccessful.
When I raised the question of whether the DNR had a plan and a budget to manage wolf predation in the more suburban environment on the lower part of Michigan after they expanded their territories, I was told they wouldn't get here. Guess what there is a bridge, and the lakes freeze over some winters, and they have reached the upper part of lower Michigan.. I haven't followed the issue recently, but the wolves in the UP were supplementing their menu with sheep and backyard dogs. They're not stupid, why run around chasing deer when something tasty is penned up with a fence? Aside from my obvious bias, managing the coexistance of species with competing interests is anything but easy, but it sure would help if more people understood animal behavior and a little ecology. And maybe the practicality of limited manpower and budgets if humans are going to meddle in conservation.
About 30 years ago I went to a meeting on the MSU campus where the public was invited to comment on a plan to introduce wolves back into the UP of Michigan. A whole room full of folks wanting to have wolves running free and wild, how wonderful! Virtually none of those people actually lived in the UP. But true or not the impression was that it had unlimited wilderness. None raised livestock (except me). Minnesota was already having problems with wolf predation on livestock, and management of the problem seemed unsuccessful.
When I raised the question of whether the DNR had a plan and a budget to manage wolf predation in the more suburban environment on the lower part of Michigan after they expanded their territories, I was told they wouldn't get here. Guess what there is a bridge, and the lakes freeze over some winters, and they have reached the upper part of lower Michigan.. I haven't followed the issue recently, but the wolves in the UP were supplementing their menu with sheep and backyard dogs. They're not stupid, why run around chasing deer when something tasty is penned up with a fence? Aside from my obvious bias, managing the coexistance of species with competing interests is anything but easy, but it sure would help if more people understood animal behavior and a little ecology. And maybe the practicality of limited manpower and budgets if humans are going to meddle in conservation.
Sheepfarmer you are spot on! To city kids have read Bambi to many times and watched grizzly adams to many time to understand that life mean killing to stay alive be it for food or defence of ones own life. The world is a cruel mistress to say the least and predation is part of it. The problem is, they cant understand that.
They also think farming is putting around on a tractor, kids running and playing in the sun with lambs and puppies, cute little calves standing lovingly next to mom. These same people cant picture you out there in the snow cold freezing rain trying to get feed to the critters, and spending last years profit fixing a piece of equipment, and how much it costs everytime you lose one of those critters. They never see you digging a hole to bury it in the middle of the night, because there is just to much to do in the morning. They dont see the muddy fields, the crop loss due to deer and elk, and bison. They dont understand how much you have lost when bears destroy half a dozen bee hives or coyotes or wolves or feral dogs destroy your flock, or kill caves in the field!
OH ITS OK THATS WHAT THEY DO!
If thats the case then why the hell do the city kids call the cops and WLO when a deer eats off their 200 dollar shrub in front of the house???
Like so many here I have fought this battle with people that dont know a plow from a combine. The wife of a friend of mine was a real tree hugger, I mean so far left she was almost off the map. And it got to the point I gathered as many pictures of critters killed by predators as i could find. And after a brief interlude over coffee I showed her the pictures. SHe said I was being rude and that they were not real. I guess some people just cannot be told shown or enlightened.
Im done,,for now
They also think farming is putting around on a tractor, kids running and playing in the sun with lambs and puppies, cute little calves standing lovingly next to mom. These same people cant picture you out there in the snow cold freezing rain trying to get feed to the critters, and spending last years profit fixing a piece of equipment, and how much it costs everytime you lose one of those critters. They never see you digging a hole to bury it in the middle of the night, because there is just to much to do in the morning. They dont see the muddy fields, the crop loss due to deer and elk, and bison. They dont understand how much you have lost when bears destroy half a dozen bee hives or coyotes or wolves or feral dogs destroy your flock, or kill caves in the field!
OH ITS OK THATS WHAT THEY DO!
If thats the case then why the hell do the city kids call the cops and WLO when a deer eats off their 200 dollar shrub in front of the house???
Like so many here I have fought this battle with people that dont know a plow from a combine. The wife of a friend of mine was a real tree hugger, I mean so far left she was almost off the map. And it got to the point I gathered as many pictures of critters killed by predators as i could find. And after a brief interlude over coffee I showed her the pictures. SHe said I was being rude and that they were not real. I guess some people just cannot be told shown or enlightened.
Im done,,for now
Some people have an amazing ability to block out reality and sometimes I envy them. Nature can be very cruel especially when deer or any other species populations get out of control however people don't see it so it doesn't exist. Just glad I grew up when I did.
I think a lot of the bias/ignorance displayed by many folks is caused by the media. That's where the people Skeets describes get their opinion.
A recent example, a week ago a St. employee driving a snow plow/salt truck went off the road, the truck rolled and he was killed. The first report I saw, early in the morning, said the truck rolled and he was crushed by the truck. He was not wearing a seat belt. All report I was, even in the paper, never mentioned the lack of use of a seat belt.
So I find it difficult to understand a 3 year employee who is required to attend safety meetings weekly, gets in his truck and forgets what he's heard many times. So at about 35-40 MPH he goes off the 4 lane highway with no other traffic that morning, because of ice and snow, and dies.
Now, the issue isn't about seat belts. It's if the state requires them and wants drivers to use them would this be an opportunity to help the public understand the possible results of not using them?
A recent example, a week ago a St. employee driving a snow plow/salt truck went off the road, the truck rolled and he was killed. The first report I saw, early in the morning, said the truck rolled and he was crushed by the truck. He was not wearing a seat belt. All report I was, even in the paper, never mentioned the lack of use of a seat belt.
So I find it difficult to understand a 3 year employee who is required to attend safety meetings weekly, gets in his truck and forgets what he's heard many times. So at about 35-40 MPH he goes off the 4 lane highway with no other traffic that morning, because of ice and snow, and dies.
Now, the issue isn't about seat belts. It's if the state requires them and wants drivers to use them would this be an opportunity to help the public understand the possible results of not using them?
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Wow Tim, profound indeed like sheepfarmer said.
I have Bachelor's degrees in both Forestry and Biology..
While college was a long time ago, I recall entire forest ecosystems threatened in the name of preservation or conservation. I might get some of this wrong. Feel free to correct my errors.
The New Jersey Pine Barrens is the first to come to mind. Jack Pine is the dominant species. Jack Pine is encouraged to seed by regular, periodic small fires. Fire releases nitrogen in the duff layer on the floor, and also heat-treats the jack pine cones to open. The vigorous, mature trees are not damaged by the fires. Stressed or non-performing trees are killed. Natural selection. Fire is not deemed acceptable by most people in the interest of protecting property. 35 years ago, the Barrens were considered at-risk.
Of course similar situations exist in the west, where similar forest types actually benefit from regular, small fires. However long lapses between fires build fuel-stores, and encourage much stronger, lethal burns for both the forest, property, and people.
The large western fires have been tragic for people, property, and the ecosystems. They are not beneficial for anything. Being the father of a California resident, believe me I pay attention to them.
Fire is an extreme example. Fire was a common, acceptable management tool at one time in silviculture and agriculture.
Some of the species re-introductions still baffle me, especially in rural, but populated (i.e., agricultural) areas. Wolves are the most common hot-button species, because of the predation issues mentioned before.
Mother Nature brought us many Bald Eagles, coyotes and black bears in the last 40 years. Some dairy farmers don't allow cows to freshen in the pasture anymore due to the coyotes and bears. Why should people introduce another predatory species that can impact the existing agricultural industry? They used to exist...I get that. But why for any other reason except we want to?
My point is well-intended human intervention in the interest of preservation sometimes puts conservation at risk. Conversely, human efforts at conservation often put preservation at risk...
This was last year just down the road at a friend’s dairy. Look behind “the girls.” Was just behind the barn and house. Northern coyotes do run large, given the cold winters. Many folks think they’re wolves, but they’re not.
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Daren Todd
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Len, just because they have safety meetings doesn't mean they will follow the topics of the meetings
We have a zero tolerance policy at work for seat belts. Get caught operating a piece of equipment or driving a company vehicle without a seat belt, it's an immediate termination. We still have employees that won't wear a seat belt. I'm waiting for them to get stopped and ticketed. That will result in an automatic termination from corporate.
I've been fighting with the employees about doing the forklift pre use inspections. I finally got ticked off and grabbed the keys for the forklift at the end of the day. Put the keys in the inspection book. New rule, if you grab the keys at the beginning of the shift, you better have the inspection done That inspection is mandatory by osha.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
We have a zero tolerance policy at work for seat belts. Get caught operating a piece of equipment or driving a company vehicle without a seat belt, it's an immediate termination. We still have employees that won't wear a seat belt. I'm waiting for them to get stopped and ticketed. That will result in an automatic termination from corporate.
I've been fighting with the employees about doing the forklift pre use inspections. I finally got ticked off and grabbed the keys for the forklift at the end of the day. Put the keys in the inspection book. New rule, if you grab the keys at the beginning of the shift, you better have the inspection done
That inspection is mandatory by osha.Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
RCW..... Yes.. What has been said...
Of all the cubic meters of wood that has been harvested in the province there is so much arboreal forest virtually untouched it is a headline waiting to happen.
I don't know forestry, but the last 2 summers the area around my Mother in Law has had major fires. That has led to the destruction of the grass roots holding the soil, and the run off, erosion, and flooding that follows. Her place is safe from that, but roads, bridges, town etc suffer.
With no graze, undulant wildlife leave, and the predators turn to live stock and pets. The town near the MIL has had a lot of pets missing and she has had to keep close watch on there and neighbors horses and small livestock.
We have worked hard to keep our and MIL place cleaned up so even if fire comes through it won't be total destruction... Hopefully...
The latte and tofu groups that protest hunting, logging, or most any kind of resource management don't have to live with the consequences. Unless there once a summer luxury resort is threatened or damaged. Then it is the old "why didn't someone do something" shocked look and question.
Of all the cubic meters of wood that has been harvested in the province there is so much arboreal forest virtually untouched it is a headline waiting to happen.
I don't know forestry, but the last 2 summers the area around my Mother in Law has had major fires. That has led to the destruction of the grass roots holding the soil, and the run off, erosion, and flooding that follows. Her place is safe from that, but roads, bridges, town etc suffer.
With no graze, undulant wildlife leave, and the predators turn to live stock and pets. The town near the MIL has had a lot of pets missing and she has had to keep close watch on there and neighbors horses and small livestock.
We have worked hard to keep our and MIL place cleaned up so even if fire comes through it won't be total destruction... Hopefully...
The latte and tofu groups that protest hunting, logging, or most any kind of resource management don't have to live with the consequences. Unless there once a summer luxury resort is threatened or damaged. Then it is the old "why didn't someone do something" shocked look and question.