Oil Issue

[SidecarFlip]

Actually, it does but the crankshaft pulley bolt is better.

 

[armylifer]

Actually, it does but the crankshaft pulley bolt is better.

What he said. In that case you would use a socket wrench to turn over the engine. Just be sure that you don't have the injectors on the engine or you could potentially wind up starting the engine and get hurt real bad.

 

[200mph]

JMO,

Have you determined the level of damage yet?

 

[JMO]

Guys, thanks for the reply and all of the info and suggestions. I had the start of the flu when I started to change the oil and since then I have been laid up at the house since then. I hope to get out there next week and get back to the post with all of you on the issue.

I am pushing 68 this year and sorry to say I seem to do more stupid things as I get older. I have done many oil changes in my life time and never done anything as stupid as this. I wish I could blame it on me under the weather, but the buck as to stop with me and no one else.

Again thanks for all of the info and I am hoping that the removal of the glow plugs and cleaning will do the trick as the tractor only has 515 hours.

 

[D2Cat]

JMO, hope you get to feeling better, and soon. Quit beating yourself up. Read post number 16 again. We've all been there, some just won't willingly admit it!!

 

[sheepfarmer]

JMO as you can see from my questions, many people learn from these threads, so I will appreciate hearing how all this turns out, and how you solve the problem. Feel better soon.

 

[JMO]

OK, guys out of the house and up on my land today and started to get to the glow plugs. Little surprised to see all the stuff in the way. Wondering if I should take off the intake manifold or remove the fuel tank and brackets to get to the glow plugs. I would rather not take the intake manifold off as I am thinking that there would be less chance of messing something else up if I stuck to removing only items that do not affect the operation of the tractor.

Also, do I need to remove the injectors and try clean or remove any of the oil that may have gotten to where it's not supposed to?

 

[Bulldog]

In college - my roommate......we were changing his oil in his camaro.....everything was fine until I asked the 3rd time....."you got the plug back in?" - YES I do ........as the first quart was poured .....and traveled to the parking lot.....the second quart was still pouring.....

sharp as a bowling ball!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who did something like this.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Do I need to remove the injectors and try clean or remove any of the oil that may have gotten to where it's not supposed to?

If you remove the glow plugs and turn it by hand first then with the starter, that will purge any oil amount that's in the cylinders, the residual will burn off in seconds on startup, if it didn't damage anything.

 

[GeoHorn]

If your lucky rabbits foot was in your pocket the engine died while running due to being starved of air (being given a load of oil) and hopefully died quickly without bending/breaking anything.
Cranking it with a starter is a really bad idea even when you think you've rotated it by hand a few revolutions. Cranking an intact engine will never purge all the oil out of those cylinders...there will always remain a considerable amount inside them. Starting an engine with that much in them will run the risk of a bent conn-rod or holed piston or both.
The bad news is that you probably should pull the head off the engine to evacuate all the oil and also to inspect the pistons/cyls. After the head is off you can rotate it by hand to measure piston travel in each of those Five cylinders to make sure you haven't bent a rod. Only after that would I attempt to rotate it with the starter and observe movement.

If all is OK after that, I'd put the head back on and fire 'er up.

That's a low time M4700DT... similar to mine (which is a '96 year model and has less than 500 hrs on it. They are some of the best utility models Kubota ever produced.) I'm only an hour's drive north of you on Hwy 281.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

If your lucky rabbits foot was in your pocket the engine died while running due to being starved of air (being given a load of oil) and hopefully died quickly without bending/breaking anything.
Cranking it with a starter is a really bad idea even when you think you've rotated it by hand a few revolutions. Cranking an intact engine will never purge all the oil out of those cylinders...there will always remain a considerable amount inside them. Starting an engine with that much in them will run the risk of a bent conn-rod or holed piston or both.
The bad news is that you probably should pull the head off the engine to evacuate all the oil and also to inspect the pistons/cyls. After the head is off you can rotate it by hand to measure piston travel in each of those Five cylinders to make sure you haven't bent a rod. Only after that would I attempt to rotate it with the starter and observe movement.

If all is OK after that, I'd put the head back on and fire 'er up.

That's a low time M4700DT... similar to mine (which is a '96 year model and has less than 500 hrs on it. They are some of the best utility models Kubota ever produced.) I'm only an hour's drive north of you on Hwy 281.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Have you ever worked on one of these engines?

When the piston goes to top dead center there is about the room of a couple sheets of paper, not much oil could or would be left in there.

So if it will turn by hand with the glow plugs out and then turn with the starter with the glow plugs out, there ain't going to be enough oil left in there to matter!

 

[armylifer]

I have to agree with NIW. My experience is the same that NIW states. There really should not be any reason to go through the trouble and expense of removing the engine head to clear out any oil that may be in the cylinders.

 

[GeoHorn]

This piston has a depressed center which will hold several tablespoons of oil which may still produce a hydraulic-lock is my fear. Pulling the head of this engine is not that difficult (altho' Ill' admit I've not pulled mine off...I have the identical tractor). It looks like pulling the hood off is easy and leaving a FEL on it's stand is easy and pulling the fuel system plumbing and cooling system is about all there is to prepare for it. By pulling the head he can visually confirm if any damage has been done to the upper cyls/pistons...something that should be confirmed before another start-attempt...IMO.
5 or 6 hours labor and $100 worth of parts versus an $8K engine on such a low-time tractor seems like what I'd do is all.... just tryin' to be helpful...

Not a Kubota, but I had to do this to a used Ford I was gifted when it had a knockin' sound. Pulled the head and confirmed a damaged piston and rod. (Blown head gasket had likely let coolant into the cylinder and hydro-locked it...the owner didn't feel like working on it so gave it to me.) Left the block in-situ and dropped the sump, pulled (pushed actually) the rod/piston out and installed new ones. Ran that tractor 15 years before giving it away when I bought my Kubota. It's workin' for it's new owner now.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

This piston has a depressed center which will hold several tablespoons of oil which may still produce a hydraulic-lock is my fear. Pulling the head of this engine is not that difficult (altho' Ill' admit I've not pulled mine off...I have the identical tractor). It looks like pulling the hood off is easy and leaving a FEL on it's stand is easy and pulling the fuel system plumbing and cooling system is about all there is to prepare for it. By pulling the head he can visually confirm if any damage has been done to the upper cyls/pistons...something that should be confirmed before another start-attempt...IMO.

I get your point, and yes there is indentation in the cylinder, but those indentations will have the valves take up their space when the piston goes to top dead center.
Remember these are very high compression engines, 540psi on this model, not like a gas engine, so not much air space is left when the piston is at TDC.

I don't disagree with disassembling to check for damage, but a much cheaper test is a compression test, which after purging any excess oil out can be done, then if that test shows low compression, he's better off just pulling the entire engine for a rebuild because the damage will most likely be in the lower end components.

 

[GeoHorn]

Wolfman, I apologize...it appears I was editing my post during your reply.
I see your point in light of the desire to hope it's an easy-peasy fix. However I'm just thinking that his engine was running when it shut down, likely due to the over-servicing of oil. What has my attention is the fact he tried to turn the engine over with the starter unsuccessfully and that would be really rough on a hydraulically locked engine. If the piston or rod were damaged either by the shutdown or the start attempt then a couple things come to mind with regard to a compression test:

A compression test is not a valid test to determine a lock-damaged piston or bent rod. Low compression might be indicated if displacement is reduced...but compression will also be affected/increased by any oil left in that piston cavity and which seals rings … the comparison between cyls would likely be variable...so the reading would be inconclusive. A compression reading does not accommodate indication for a bent rod, while a very-low compression might be the result of a valve issue or a holed-piston. Either way...the head most likely must come off. If it were me, I'd cut to the chase and pull the head, … but you guys more familiar with these engines are likely better advisors.
I'm following this with interest. Thanks.

 

[hagrid]

Knowing what we know, I'd remove the glow plugs and cycle the crank with the starter. Clean up the mess on the rocker cover, reinstall the plugs, and try to light the engine.

If, after 10 minutes of idling the exhaust cleans up, the engine is probably ok. If it stays smoky, provided it actually lights up, then the rods are bent... increased volume resulting in loss of cylinder air temperature.

If a piston broke then the engine probably won't light... at best it runs with a loss of cylinders.

Now you can unbolt a head.

 

[GeoHorn]

If rods are bent....rotating with a starter is sure to further damage upper cyls and parts. (In point-of-fact, he's already experienced that when the starter failed to rotate the engine... there's only speculation that hyd-lock is the present reason the starter can't rotate it, ...while mechanical restriction/damage is a distinct possibility.**)
Rotating by hand with glow plugs removed should have NO compression and no felt sudden-increase in effort should occur during rotation. (A sudden increase in effort during hand-rotation would indicate inappropriate damage has occurred and further rotation should be stopped....time for disassembly.) IMO

**BTW: This is a pre-Tier engine. Who can say for certain the crankcase/sump shares volume (crankcase recirculator) with the induction system on THIS engine? If not, there's less postulation that oil entered the upper cyls. ...

 

[JMO]

Happy, Happy, Happy as first indications are good so far. I pulled all four glow plugs and then put a wrench on the crank pully. At first, I thought I could not turn it, but gave it a little heavier pull and she started turning and turning freely. Oil did come shutting out the glow plug holes like little gushers of the “old-time oil wells” when they struck oil. I was pretty excited and went and couldn’t wait to hooked the battery up. I gave the key a turn and she started turning and blowing the excess oil out. I did this for about 15 seconds and repeated the procedure several times (crank 15 seconds, rest, crank….). I then put the glow plugs back in and rigged a quart bottle up for a gas tank as I had taken off the gas tank to get to the glow plugs. I double checked everything and then cranked the engine. She started right up, blew a little black smoke for a few seconds and kept on going. I shut her off, checked the oil-level and cranked her again and she started right up. Ran it about a minute, shut her off and waited a minute and then repeated the start-up ran a minute and shut off. Did this several time and all seems good. It was pretty close to dark so I covered the tractor and will power wash all the oil that was thrown around. To all the folks that contributed to this post, I owe you guys more than a few beers. I will put her back together tomorrow and run her a while longer to see how she holds up. NIW, I live in SA, but I have a place off HWY 306. You must be close. Again, guys thanks a bunch and I must say Orange Tractor .com is great.

 

[JMO]

Whoops I read the wrong name on the post. I not NIW, but GEOHORN, that is near me off HWY 306.

 

[200mph]

I'm really glad there appears to be no issues from your mishap!

Did you do the happy dance when it started?