Skidding winch

[Stomper]

Been looking for a way to make a simple but effective skidding winch to help make my firewood harvesting easier. I want it for my L2501. I don't need anything like a big pto skidding winch, especially for the cost of them. I found this hydraulic captan winch which looks really easy to build and seems to work good. I contacted them and the price is $1500, which isn't to bad but I have most of the frame already with my heavy duty 3ph trailer mover I built. It even has chain hooks welded on it for draging logs and other stuff. All I really have to do is figure out what I need for the hydraulic motor. According to the email from the manufacturer, the hydraulic motor is 16 gpm max and 3 gpm min flow with 1700 psi max. The manual for my tractor says it's hydraulic pump capacity is 5.15 gpm (main) and 3.13 gpm (ps) and 2205 psi. Not sure which flow rate I should go by. I need some help from the hydraulic experts as to which type and size of motor would work with my tractor. Obviously the shaft of the motor has to be able to withstand a good amount of side pull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP4E2k80tfU

Here is what I will use for the drum part. It fits a 1" shaft and there is a choise between 3 diameters

https://www.portablewinch.com/ca_en/pca-1100/

 

[SidecarFlip]

It's capstan btw, not captain. The captain is you....

The larger the diameter of the drum, the less mechanical advantage is imparted to the rope but conversely, the pull in speed (line speed increases.

Drum diameter will entail things like hydraulic flow, hydraulic motor attained horsepower and above all the weight of the tractor. You don't want to try to skid a log and have the tractor sliding backwards, that is counter productive.

Myself, unless you have a large frame, heavy tractor, I'd go with the smallest diameter drum. Only thing you will lose is line speed and you have to decide if a quick retrieval is important. In my case, slower is better, in your case maybe not.

 

[Stomper]

Yeah I should have proof read before I posted. I didnt realize I forgot the S.
Tractor weight I should be good. It's by no means a big heavy tractor but With the loader it comes in around the 3700lb mark plus the winch frame will have some sort of blade on it to dig into the ground simply for that reason to anchor the tractor. I would sooner have pulling power over speed also. My weak spot is hydraulic design. I just need some pointers as to how to choose the right motor to match my tractors output so I can accomplish what I need it to do.
I searched for hydraulic motors and when is states x amount of cubic inches/rev, min max gpm flow rates, HP, inch pounds torque ........ I get confused.
I'm assuming that the cubic inch flow per revolution and the max rpm of the motor is going to have to match up with the tractors hydraulic output

 

[crmorse]

My advice: don't! Go with the traditional design instead.

I tried to buy that same winch and at the time they told me they wouldn't sell it except in combination with a sawmill. So I replicated it myself. It doesn't work for crap.

The problem isn't the hydraulics. And don't worry about flow rate, I found that I was running my tractor at idle and still had my flow control turned down.

The problem is that the rope slips too easily on the capstan and just slides burning up the rope. Unless you pull *really* hard on it. I tried to buy exactly the same rope they used but they don't really say what the material is so I bought an arborist rope rated for pulling. Perhaps the sheath material is wrong and lets it slide too easily but having used it a bit, I don't really thing that alone is enough.

I had my Dad turn a new capstan that is twice as tall so that I can get more loops on it for increased friction but I honestly haven't had the heart to even try it. I put a lot of time and money into it (probably 10% more than their asking price not even counting my time).

What I will say is that the motor has plenty of torque. When I was actually able to put enough tension on the rope to make a log move, it moved, no bogging down.

Here's my build attached.

 

[boz1989]

I've been looking at a milemarker hydraulic winch for pulling logs. Currently it's just an idea, due to lack of $$$.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

 

[Stomper]

My advice: don't! Go with the traditional design instead.

I tried to buy that same winch and at the time they told me they wouldn't sell it except in combination with a sawmill. So I replicated it myself. It doesn't work for crap.

The problem isn't the hydraulics. And don't worry about flow rate, I found that I was running my tractor at idle and still had my flow control turned down.

The problem is that the rope slips too easily on the capstan and just slides burning up the rope. Unless you pull *really* hard on it. I tried to buy exactly the same rope they used but they don't really say what the material is so I bought an arborist rope rated for pulling. Perhaps the sheath material is wrong and lets it slide too easily but having used it a bit, I don't really thing that alone is enough.

I had my Dad turn a new capstan that is twice as tall so that I can get more loops on it for increased friction but I honestly haven't had the heart to even try it. I put a lot of time and money into it (probably 10% more than their asking price not even counting my time).

What I will say is that the motor has plenty of torque. When I was actually able to put enough tension on the rope to make a log move, it moved, no bogging down.

Here's my build attached.

Thats strange to hear about the rope slipping. I have watched tons of capstan winch videos on youtube and none of them had slipping issues and some were pulling some decent size loads. In the email that I recieved from Norwood, they said to use only 1/2" low stretch braided polyester rope. The Portable Winch site says low stretch double braided polyester rope also for their capstan winches.

BTW Nice job on the build. Do you have any particulars on the specs for the hydraulic motor you used.

 

[crmorse]

Thats strange to hear about the rope slipping. I have watched tons of capstan winch videos on youtube and none of them had slipping issues and some were pulling some decent size loads. In the email that I recieved from Norwood, they said to use only 1/2" low stretch braided polyester rope. The Portable Winch site says low stretch double braided polyester rope also for their capstan winches.

I used this rope. I even contacted BlueOx and told them what I was using it for and asked for their recommendation. It wouldn't surprise me if the rope is the problem as the sheath feels pretty slippery to me but after putting so much time and money into it and having such dismal performance I just kind of gave up on it. I'm focused on other projects right now but when it's time for me to get back to fishing for timber I'll give it another go.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LZPJ3NR/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

BTW Nice job on the build. Do you have any particulars on the specs for the hydraulic motor you used.

Thank you! And yes, I kept pretty good notes during the build.

My motor is a 19.7 cu in white drive products (hydraulic wheel motor).
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...355320A8321BAAAA-HYDRAULIC-MOTOR-9-8675-D.axd

The math works out pretty easy. I used that same capstan you mentioned which is 2" diameter / 1" radius. It just so happens that the formula for converting rotational torque into pulling force uses radius so the terms all simplify so you can get pretty darn close by using the motor's in-lbs torque as the maximum pulling force in pounds.

Your tractor's hydraulic flow rate divided by the motor's volume gives you the rotational speed (well, PSI is a factor too but not too critical here). I went with the largest size I could find to keep the speed down. I also added a flow divider thanks to suggestions from TBN and glad I did. I don't really use it much for speed control but it's dang handy for on/off operation since I'm using my tractor's BH connectors instead of a rear remote valve (all of mine are spring centered so they wouldn't work). I use the swing cylinder pump which has a 6gpm maximum flow. I find that running the tractor at about 1/3rd throttle gave me a good line speed.

Here's the flow valve I used:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...NCE-WFC-800-IN-LINE-FLOW-CONTROL-9-7960-8.axd

Here's my dimensional drawing and hydraulic circuitry in case it helps.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ov94f35xfy5rr6g/Norwood Log Winch clone.pdf

I have a whole series of pics during the build and some video of operation as well. I had intended to post a build thread for it but when it didn't perform I just kept my mouth shut and assumed I was a fool.

If you end up building one I'd love to hear your results.

 

[Stomper]

I used this rope. I even contacted BlueOx and told them what I was using it for and asked for their recommendation. It wouldn't surprise me if the rope is the problem as the sheath feels pretty slippery to me but after putting so much time and money into it and having such dismal performance I just kind of gave up on it. I'm focused on other projects right now but when it's time for me to get back to fishing for timber I'll give it another go.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LZPJ3NR/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Thank you! And yes, I kept pretty good notes during the build.

My motor is a 19.7 cu in white drive products (hydraulic wheel motor).
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...355320A8321BAAAA-HYDRAULIC-MOTOR-9-8675-D.axd

The math works out pretty easy. I used that same capstan you mentioned which is 2" diameter / 1" radius. It just so happens that the formula for converting rotational torque into pulling force uses radius so the terms all simplify so you can get pretty darn close by using the motor's in-lbs torque as the maximum pulling force in pounds.

Your tractor's hydraulic flow rate divided by the motor's volume gives you the rotational speed (well, PSI is a factor too but not too critical here). I went with the largest size I could find to keep the speed down. I also added a flow divider thanks to suggestions from TBN and glad I did. I don't really use it much for speed control but it's dang handy for on/off operation since I'm using my tractor's BH connectors instead of a rear remote valve (all of mine are spring centered so they wouldn't work). I use the swing cylinder pump which has a 6gpm maximum flow. I find that running the tractor at about 1/3rd throttle gave me a good line speed.

Here's the flow valve I used:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...NCE-WFC-800-IN-LINE-FLOW-CONTROL-9-7960-8.axd

Here's my dimensional drawing and hydraulic circuitry in case it helps.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ov94f35xfy5rr6g/Norwood Log Winch clone.pdf

I have a whole series of pics during the build and some video of operation as well. I had intended to post a build thread for it but when it didn't perform I just kept my mouth shut and assumed I was a fool.

If you end up building one I'd love to hear your results.

WOW thanks a bunch, this is the exact kind of info I was looking for. You definitely have good attention to details to put that amount of work into laying out a small project like this. I'm kind of a "plan in my head" kind of guy. That rope looks like the rope that is supposed to be used so I'm not sure whats going on, but for some reason I would suspect the rope also. The ropes in the videos was sure working good.
I will be building one simply because I have the frame built already, and I already have the rope also. I'm the trainer for out industrial rope rescue team at work so I have access to all kinds of out dated rescue rope. All I need to get is the motor and capstan spool.

Do you know what rpm your winch turns at. I told a couple hydraulic supply places my plans and my tractors hydraulic system info and they both came back with a motor the runs at 150 rpm at a flow of 5gpm.

I will definitley let you know how thing work out.

 

[Yooper]

My advice: don't! Go with the traditional design instead.

I tried to buy that same winch and at the time they told me they wouldn't sell it except in combination with a sawmill. So I replicated it myself. It doesn't work for crap.

The problem isn't the hydraulics. And don't worry about flow rate, I found that I was running my tractor at idle and still had my flow control turned down.

The problem is that the rope slips too easily on the capstan and just slides burning up the rope. Unless you pull *really* hard on it. I tried to buy exactly the same rope they used but they don't really say what the material is so I bought an arborist rope rated for pulling. Perhaps the sheath material is wrong and lets it slide too easily but having used it a bit, I don't really thing that alone is enough.

I had my Dad turn a new capstan that is twice as tall so that I can get more loops on it for increased friction but I honestly haven't had the heart to even try it. I put a lot of time and money into it (probably 10% more than their asking price not even counting my time).

What I will say is that the motor has plenty of torque. When I was actually able to put enough tension on the rope to make a log move, it moved, no bogging down.

Here's my build attached.

That is way too nice of a build to give up on! I always expect to have to rework something when I build something.

Looking at your winch, I am wondering if a roller placed ahead of the capstan to direct the rope straight toward it versus at an angle would fix the problem? Or maybe adjusting the 3 point so it angles down a bit? I bet you are just a tweek away from success!

 

[skeets]

Maybe something like this might be better and easier for your needs

https://youtu.be/xmv6ah2pqbg?t=55

 

[Stomper]

That is way too nice of a build to give up on! I always expect to have to rework something when I build something.

Looking at your winch, I am wondering if a roller placed ahead of the capstan to direct the rope straight toward it versus at an angle would fix the problem? Or maybe adjusting the 3 point so it angles down a bit? I bet you are just a tweek away from success!

I totally agree. The hard work is done.... and done well. The angle of attack coming into the capstan might be the problem but I would try a different rope. The capstan winch is such a super easy design it's pretty hard to have a design flaw. Especially since you have bought a capstan spool that is used and works on other capstan winches. The hardest part would be figuring out which motor to get. If your motor is running the right speed and has the torque to pull it's pretty much a sucsess. If I was a betting man, I would say it's the rope. The guy in the video that I posted sure isn't pulling very hard.

 

[Stomper]

Maybe something like this might be better and easier for your needs

https://youtu.be/xmv6ah2pqbg?t=55

Thats pretty slick also, but IMHO its a bit dangerous. It looks like it's coupled directly to the PTO and if you encounter an issue where the winch has to be stopped quickly, jumping on the tractor and disengaging the PTO is the only solution

 

[SidecarFlip]

Most larger winches (PTO driven) will have a 3 position gearshift. neutral freespool), power in and power out . I own a Braden 20 ton, it's in the shop and it has a shift lever so you don't need to disengage the pto drive to stop the winch.

 

[skeets]

Im sure a 12 volt 8000 pound electric winch would work just as well on that set up, but then what do I know

 

[Stomper]

Im sure a 12 volt 8000 pound electric winch would work just as well on that set up, but then what do I know

It would work but it would be painfully slow. Not to mention the short cycle time of the electric motor. 12 Volt electric winches are designed to be used for short periods of time only. Trust me I know. I burnt one up dragging logs out of the bush. It would work great, but slow, for a bit, then heat up and quit and wouldn't work again until it cooled down. Apparently they only last so long when you treat them like that.

 

[Stomper]

I found this awhile ago and thought it was an very interesting design. Seems to work good for this guy but it's definitely more work to build that the capstan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h4Ddp4sN3I

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I found this awhile ago and thought it was an very interesting design. Seems to work good for this guy but it's definitely more work to build that the capstan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h4Ddp4sN3I

The nylon strap used as a winch brake is too funny!

 

[crmorse]

Thanks for the encouragement guys! I've got a few smaller trees and some bucks on the hill next to my construction site (building a house). As soon as I can catch up from all this rain we've been having I'll hook it up and give it another go.

My Dad did turn a new captan for me, this one is 8" tall so that I can get a lot more loops on it. I'll see if that helps and try some other pieces of rope too.

 

[mike paulson]

I used this rope. I even contacted BlueOx and told them what I was using it for and asked for their recommendation. It wouldn't surprise me if the rope is the problem as the sheath feels pretty slippery to me but after putting so much time and money into it and having such dismal performance I just kind of gave up on it. I'm focused on other projects right now but when it's time for me to get back to fishing for timber I'll give it another go.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LZPJ3NR/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Thank you! And yes, I kept pretty good notes during the build.

My motor is a 19.7 cu in white drive products (hydraulic wheel motor).
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...355320A8321BAAAA-HYDRAULIC-MOTOR-9-8675-D.axd

The math works out pretty easy. I used that same capstan you mentioned which is 2" diameter / 1" radius. It just so happens that the formula for converting rotational torque into pulling force uses radius so the terms all simplify so you can get pretty darn close by using the motor's in-lbs torque as the maximum pulling force in pounds.

Your tractor's hydraulic flow rate divided by the motor's volume gives you the rotational speed (well, PSI is a factor too but not too critical here). I went with the largest size I could find to keep the speed down. I also added a flow divider thanks to suggestions from TBN and glad I did. I don't really use it much for speed control but it's dang handy for on/off operation since I'm using my tractor's BH connectors instead of a rear remote valve (all of mine are spring centered so they wouldn't work). I use the swing cylinder pump which has a 6gpm maximum flow. I find that running the tractor at about 1/3rd throttle gave me a good line speed.

Here's the flow valve I used:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...NCE-WFC-800-IN-LINE-FLOW-CONTROL-9-7960-8.axd

Here's my dimensional drawing and hydraulic circuitry in case it helps.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ov94f35xfy5rr6g/Norwood Log Winch clone.pdf

I have a whole series of pics during the build and some video of operation as well. I had intended to post a build thread for it but when it didn't perform I just kept my mouth shut and assumed I was a fool.

If you end up building one I'd love to hear your results.

What are your square tube dimensions and thickness, thanks in advance.

 

[SidecarFlip]

The nylon strap used as a winch brake is too funny!

Necessity is the mother of invention......