Elderly standby generator: repair or replace?

[sheepfarmer]

I have a 1992 Dayton 8kW propane generator that has run perfectly when needed for 16 yrs until last Friday when I thought I heard it start and stop when it started its weekly exercise cycle. By the time I got outside it was running fine. Friday night after I heard the weather forecast I thought maybe I should check it out and so shut off the mains. It started up normally and then after a second or two it cut out, and then tried again, this time with some metallic scraping noise, and then stopped, and then it tried again and was successful. Not good.

I called a bunch of supposed electrician/generator service repair outfits, and most say either they don't service old equipment, or they don't service that brand, or they only service the units they sell. Turns out Dayton is or was a subsidiary of Generac, came from Grainger, still in Lansing, so I am not sure totally impossible to get parts. However most promising repair service would have come from Detroit, minimum travel charge $300.

Turned out the electrician that sold and installed it wouldn't service anything but the electrical components, and so I have taken care of it myself since it turned out to be easy to change the oil, wash the air filter, and replace the battery. BUT it has never had the spark plugs replaced He told me that spark plugs don't get dirty with propane like they do with gas, and so time drifted past, and they've never been changed.

Trouble shooting done so far:
It has oil both in makeup tank and where dipstick is.
Lots of propane which also is used for furnace.
Tried the mains off test again and this time it started and then stopped making a humming noise until I turned it off manually. Generator reeked of propane.
I pulled the battery out and took it off to battery store to be load tested, and it is fine.
Cleaned contacts and put it back, and retested, and this time it started and kept running.
Only thing is, it still hesitated briefly at the time when it had quit before, so I am not sure if cleaning contacts really fixed it, or was a fluke.

The manual says if it cranks but doesn't start, check fuel solenoid or ignition system. I am kind of stuck because there are no pictures and I can't find the spark plugs much less the fuel solenoid! Or at least they are well hidden under things that I am reluctant to take apart since I don't know what they are.

Question is, do these symptoms sound like it is something simple like spark plugs, or maybe something worn out where the motor engages whatever turns in the power generating coils? It fires up briskly and then dies, and I think it is supposed to start without a load and then engage something. Does the propane smell when it doesn't start right make it dangerous? Or?

It sounds like at the bare minimum I could have a $500 service call, even for something simple like spark plugs. New generators cost 2500 to 5000 plus installation. What is the general lifetime of the more expensive parts of generators? On the one hand this one has been reliable, on the other hand it provides minimum power, and power is dirty, clocks run fast, and I was told when it was new not to try to run tv, microwave or computer since it wasn't clean power.

What do you guys think?

 

[itsaz]

Have you checked the propane line where it goes into the generator? There may be sediment in the line that's messing up the fuel solenoid. When we installed mine, we put a trap in the line just before the generator to catch sediment. Maybe junk has made it's way into the fuel system.

You mention a metallic scraping noise. Can you turn the motor by hand to see if anything is binding up?

Since it's 26 years old, kinda small and the power is "dirty", I'd be thinking of replacing it. That propane smell is troubling.

 

[skeets]

Mary I kinda have to go along with itsaz on this, it might be an easy fix but like my old unit the out put is dirty meaning its hard on puters and tv's and stuff like that. And I opted for a new Genarac portable 10kw unit, do I need it that big no but I have it in case I need it. A stand by from Genarac installed might run 3k for a 11 or 12 kw unit which would run every thing you need and then some. And I know thats a big outlay of cash!

You might be able to find a small engine shop locally that might come out and look into it. Though the gas smell would make me lean toward the fuel solenoid not operating. The metal grinding sound kinda scares me like something super bad in the motor has gone south and the fact it wont turn over is never a good sign

An 8 kw unit will get you through the hard times, and I dont know what your needs are, a new Genarac unit while not cheap might be the the way to go for nothing more than piece of mind. The power out put is cleaner, and parts are around, and if you need work on it, its new enough to have someone fix it, kinda like your truck, its getting harder and harder to find someone to work on old stuff

 

[Charlie5320]

I wouldn't put any money in a generator that old, even if it hasn't been used much. Have a new one installed if you need one, and sell that one on craigslist for a few hundred. Get one that has service people in your area. You could end up with a bill for several thousand and still not be reliable, trying to fix that old one.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Here is what you want, it's the whole package, solid clean dependable power:

https://www.norwall.com/products/16...Standby-Generator-with-200A-SE-Rated-ATS-7037

 

[sheepfarmer]

Thanks guys! I have launched a search for a dealer with reasonable installation prices and a good service reputation. Most electricians don't know much about small engine repair, but Generac has started a program so the electricians go to a "school" to learn how to service them properly. Some electricians farm the service out entirely, the one that handles Briggs and Stratton does, and I had an interesting conversation with that service tech. He really likes the old Daytons and has a few he keeps for spare parts. Says they don't make them like that any more... I think I will have him out to look at mine. He likes the serviceability of the Briggs better than the Generac, and that Generac welches on their warranty a lot. Interesting guy.

My neighbor has the model that NIW posted, or at least how it was 10 years ago, and I went over to see it this afternoon. Looks like service on it would be easier than mine. He likes his a lot, and got a good price on it, but the company is down in Detroit, where he used to live. They still service his up here though, but $300 for emergency house call. We could get cheaper rates for service since another neighbor has one they bought from them. Budget Electric.

 

[Kurtee]

is the starter dragging and making the noise described? You could take a look at that. As far as a propane smell just after a failed start could be the unburned fuel pushed thru the engine as it turned over. If you can get it to work it will buy some time to make comparisons and get finances in order for a new unit. Good Luck

KURTEE

 

[Daren Todd]

I deal with generac periodically since they bought out one of my equipment vendors. Can't say I've been really impressed with there customer service and dealer support. That's been hit and miss. It's gotten to the point that unless it's a package specific part, we bypass them and go to there supplier.

Needless to say, we're working on selling off all there equipment and purchasing from someone else

 

[100 td]

My thoughts
If you can have it looked at /repaired for a reasonable price, also check
what options you have regards weekly cycles, they are way over rated, monthly max! Better still, once a month go and turn the mains off for an hour and load up the generator to 80% if you can. This gets it nice and hot, expels moisture from the oil and muffler, ensures the fuel system is working properly supplying reasonable load for a reasonable time. Monthly start means the starter gets used 800 times in 16 years instead of 3200 times. Less wear and tear. It's a pity no one could be bothered supplying parts or repairing things like this anymore, however I know the pitfalls, you replace one thing this week, another part in 3 months time, and the costs quickly add up. Good luck with which ever way you go.

 

[lugbolt]

I deal with generac periodically since they bought out one of my equipment vendors. Can't say I've been really impressed with there customer service and dealer support. That's been hit and miss. It's gotten to the point that unless it's a package specific part, we bypass them and go to there supplier.

Needless to say, we're working on selling off all there equipment and purchasing from someone else

Same experience I've had with generac. I do not recommend generac to anyone; not even to those that don't like me.

I would not generally recommend repairing an old generator. The tech is right. They dont' make 'em like that anymore. They make them BETTER.

 

[Newlyme]

Sheepfarmer, have you thought about selling the old one? Could help you offset the cost of a new one. May be a simple fix for the right, (mechanically inclined), person.

 

[sheepfarmer]

Updates and more confusion on my part, I hate the fish or cut bait decisions...I also hate electrical gremlins

So I started calling around for more information and last Tuesday one guy who sells and services generators for one of the big electrical companies came out and I told him I wanted to compare costs to repair this one and to install a new one. My generator of course started and stopped flawlessly, refusing to exhibit the problem, so all he could do from my description was suggest he throw parts at the problem, and I said well give me an estimate of cost of likely parts. Dayton is definitely a former version of the Generac, so he is dealing with them for parts. He has not been able to get a response from them about availability of parts for mine. He has since sent me estimates for new Generacs in 3 sizes. The problem will be that above 11 kW the conduits going under a concrete sidewalk to the garage electrical panels would have to be replaced as they are too small to carry bigger wire. (Sound familiar? the story of my life on this farm.) Thus adding to the cost.

Shortly after he left (and I actually hadn't expected him that day), the repair guy that likes the Daytons and keeps spare parts for them arrived. Again the generator ran flawlessly. On general principles I had him do a more or less complete service on it. I had already taken the battery in to the Battery store where I bought it and had it load tested, ok, and it was only 1.5 yrs old. Cleaned terminals. Turns out that the young lady doing it, when she checked the water levels didn't do an adequate job, and this repair guy thought it necessary to add water. I couldn't reach the other end of the negative ground cable to the chassis, and about 4 little wires also used the same ground. So while he thought it was plenty tight, and unnecessary, I made him take it off and clean them and replace with his extra long wrench. Anyway I think we can rule out bad battery, and grounds.

He cleaned the copper? surface on the stator, and even though they weren't worn down more than about 1/3 we replaced the brushes on general principles. The spark plugs were replaced, and even after 26 years didn't look that bad. No wonder I couldn't find the plugs, they are well hidden. Changed the oil (I had Mobil 1 synthetic in it, he uses Amsoil. Ok by me.) Said the engine sounded wonderful so he didn't touch the valves. So after all this tlc the generator still ran and started fine. I started it a couple times since on the manual control settings. Finally two days ago I ran it on "auto" and hit the mains and the problem reappeared. Called him today and he said he had on hand a lot of the Dayton parts, and to keep video-ing starts until I caught it in the act. Took 2 fully normal starts and cool downs until it did it again. 3 manual starts were normal. So 1 out of 6 starts it has a problem. Once running it seems fine at handling the house.

The symptoms: on power failure, it cranks, starts, runs for 6 or 7 seconds and then stops, but it tries to start again before something stops spinning in there and either makes a scraping noise or some gear teeth hang up and it makes a humming stuck noise until I shut it off. It will then start normally.

On the one hand I hate to get rid of a reasonably good generator because of a dirty contact somewhere, or some sensor like the low oil pressure switch needs replacing, on the other hand the quotes for new, including new transfer switch, and new conduit are up around $8,000. (The generators themselves can be had for less, but the transfer switch and installation are not included.)

One question I have, is that 20 or 22 KW is at the upper limit of the air cooled engine size. Is there a chance that bigger is not always better from the point of view of trouble free performance?

The other brands under consideration are Briggs and Stratton, Kohler, and Onan, although I have not been able to get much info on Onan. Comments?

We are expecting an ice storm this weekend....I hope I can coax the old girl into life if need be. If I keep it on Off and only run it on Manual I should be able to forestall it getting stuck in a misfired start and ruining the starter motor.

 

[Kurtee]

Look for Cummins Onan Generator

 

[Daren Todd]

You can probably forget about getting any info from generac on the Dayton line. Especially with the age of the unit. Generac isn't very big on supporting brands that they have acquired in buy outs. Heck, trying to get parts for equipment that they aquired in a buy out 5 years ago is an exercise in futility

Sheepfarmer, is there an option of stubbing through the wall instead of busting up a slab to run larger conduit? Would be more economical.

 

[sheepfarmer]

The conduit I have now goes through the garage wall (brick) above grade, then drops vertically to go under a concrete walkway to come up a few feet further at the generator. Walkway is stamped concrete, big mistake, but is mostly fine in that region. It was put in long after the generator. A few feet further a downspout drain that goes under same walkway needs to be replaced because a chipmunk ate a hole in it, so digging up that section wouldnt be all bad. Just more money I hoped to use for something else

Thanks everyone for comments and suggestions!

 

[100 td]

Sounds like your set is generally OK, meaning it produces power, valves/rings aren't worn etc.
It sounds like a control circuit/input issue.
Ok, engine gets called for start, engine starts, but shuts off after 2~7 seconds.
WHY? Is it due to low oil pressure or speed sensor, or gas detection etc, engine is up to full speed, it shuts down, but is still rotating when the starter is called for again.
So one or 2 problems, one, why is it shutting down when it is already running at full speed, 2 why is it restarting when still rotating.
No idea what controller they are using, but some of these things come to mind. The delay between starts is not sufficient. The controller is not seeing that there is oil pressure or rotation before initiating a restart. Is the oil pressure used to disconnect the starter motor drive, or a speed sensor or a timer?
I feel you have a good set with a minor fault, but I'm not there to diagnose, and you need to pay someone which can get costly if they don't know the ins and outs of your machine.
It could be a loose wire, a bit of metal on the end of a speed sensor, something wrong with a gas valve, a crook oil pressure switch.
I don't know whether they use these or not, but many generators use a magnetic speed sensor on the ring gear of the engine, they get built up with metal particles, they need to be marked (depth), wound out and cleaned, and replaced. (Usually wound in until touching ring gear and then backed out 1/8").

 

[sheepfarmer]

Agreed td, it feels like a "for want of a nail the battle was lost" kind of problem.

The repair guy that likes these old Daytons will come out again some time this week, and he thinks he can scroung parts. After some conversation he thought it was a bad rocker switch, but I am wondering about the logic circuit board. It has 2 known electrical problems, one that shuts it down, and there are several inputs that will do it, oil pressure sensor and high rpm sensor, and the trickle charger is not working right. And maybe a 3d, something that doesn't tell it that it is running so it tries to restart too soon. The circuit board if it can be had costs around $600.

 

[SLIMSHADIE]

So I opted for a new generac 22kw unit a couple years ago. I have a local dealer and 3 more nearby. I figure parts/service shouldnt be a problem if needed. I didnt like the cheap cover for the Kohlers and only 1 dealer nearby, while more expensive to boot. The local dealer is pretty good and came up with a solution I didnt think of. I have 200amp to the house and 200amp to my shed. With a 2nd transfer switch to the shed, I know dont have to get the ladder and pull the emergency cord 12’ feet in the air to get my truck out of the shed while power is out. While I shouldnt be welding in the shed while the power is out, I can open the doors and turn on the lights and run everything in the house. The 20-22kw units actually run at lower rpms compared the the smaller units, its quieter too. I hear my neighbors a few hundred feet away over my unit.

 

[sheepfarmer]

Thanks slimshadie, I didn't know there was a running difference in the 20 kV rpms. There is no doubt Generac seems to have a corner on the market. There are 2 installed across the street from me, and my next door neighbor is having another one put in today. Plenty of dealers.

 

[lugbolt]

I wouldn't give you $.02 for anything Onan. Have had several. Engines=bulletproof. Generator and control system not so much; and that's where my problems always laid.

Replaced the Onan in dad's camper with a Yamaha inverter and it is as happy as could be. And quieter to boot.