Snowblower Dryer and Polebarn Heater?

[Missouribound]

240V is obtained between a single leg of three-phase power and neutral.
208V three phase is obtained between two legs of three-phase power.
Clear as mud?

Not too clear. In the US, 240v is obtained between two legs and a neutral is not required for 240 volts..

Panels which are 120/240 have two hot legs, each 120 volt and a neutral.

And any two legs of a three phase power source is only single phase.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I think code allows #8 copper to carry 50 amps, provided there are only 2 hot wires and the insulation is rated at least 75°C.

That said, I think there is a substantial difference between a welder that is probably only carrying that current 50% of the time it is turned on and a heater that could run continuously for hours at a time.

I was going with 100% load rating and a safety factor, I would't want her to have any issues!

 

[Russell King]

Okay I was way off base on that welder receptacle being similar to the 50 amp RV plug I am familiar with. Ignore previous post please.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[sheepfarmer]

Thank you NIW!

And thank you Torch and Misouribound and Russell, but now I am confuused about the myriad types. Hopefully I will only have to understand one.

NIW RE the extension cord attached to a short cord idea, which would help with the transport, appreciate the thought about making the plugs easy to connect. I have a terrible time doing up the orange 3 prong 110 dxtension cords.

The wall outlet looks most like the one in torch's picture, bottom row, far right panel, the one with vertical slots.

Found the heater on sale onAmazon for $100 less

It sounds like this might be reasonable, although everything is way more expensive and complicated than I thought.

 

[torch]

And any two legs of a three phase power source is only single phase.

No. Two legs are used to create 208v power. But for 240v power, one three phase leg is split into two with a centre-tapped transformer, creating two new legs of that single phase. That's why the terms "split phase" and "single phase" are synonymous.

Here is what is probably the best simplified description I have ever read:

In a 120/240 single phase system, the midpoint of the secondary side of the tranformer is tapped and grounded to create a neutral. From the midpoint to any line reads 120V, and from line-to-line (the full voltage) reads 240V. Imagine planting a black flag in the sand, walking 120 steps in a straight line, planting a white flag, and then walking another 120 steps in the same line to plant a red flag at the end.

In a 120/208 three phase system, the neutral is at the center of three phases from the utility. In this case, using the walking in the sand analogy: A white flag is planted in the center. You walk 120 steps away from the white flag, and plant a black flag. You return to the white flag, turn 120 degrees, and walk another 120 steps, planting a red flag. You return to the white flag, turn 120 degrees, and walk 120 steps to plant a blue flag.

Once this is done, you face the red flag from the blue flag, and count your steps as you approach it. There are 208 steps between flags.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

If you would like get the heater then show me a picture of it's connections (most likely lugs with nuts) and I'll be more than happy to make you the short cord for the heater with the proper ends, and the long extension cord with the proper ends, and send it over to you.

 

[eipo]

Nope! That would be convenient.

Heres what Ive discovered over the years and Ive been moving snow for going on 25 years in one fashion or another....

If the snow isn't melting on the implement while you're using it, put it away that way. If you start melting the snow and the water doesn't entirely evaporate, you can create a problem that didn't exist in the first place. i.e. something else freezing that wouldn't have originally.

For YOUR barn, I would cordon off the bay your 2650 sits in, insulate it WELL and then heat that bay. You can stick frame a wall on the right side and install a ceiling just tall enough to clear the cab. It doesn't really need to be framed... Rigid styrofoam can create the bay and then be taken down and stored during the warmer months....

If you want to go the portable electric route, I have generator and RV cords Ive made from the SOOW wire everyone is talking about. I can show you whats being discussed. I can also bring over a torpedo heater if you want to see how that would work. Your 2650 bay is plenty far enough away from your straw/hay storage.

 

[torch]

I was going with 100% load rating and a safety factor, I would't want her to have any issues!

To be clear: I agree completely. For a continuous use like a heater, I would want #6. I was just explaining why AWG #8 is allowed in welder extension cords.

Actually, now that I think about it, it is possible that her NEMA 6-50 outlet is supplied with #8 wire in the walls, for the same reason.

 

[sheepfarmer]

Heres what Ive discovered over the years and Ive been moving snow for going on 25 years in one fashion or another....

If the snow isn't melting on the implement while you're using it, put it away that way. If you start melting the snow and the water doesn't entirely evaporate, you can create a problem that didn't exist in the first place. i.e. something else freezing that wouldn't have originally.

For YOUR barn, I would cordon off the bay your 2650 sits in, insulate it WELL and then heat that bay. You can stick frame a wall on the right side and install a ceiling just tall enough to clear the cab. It doesn't really need to be framed... Rigid styrofoam can create the bay and then be taken down and stored during the warmer months....

If you want to go the portable electric route, I have generator and RV cords Ive made from the SOOW wire everyone is talking about. I can show you whats being discussed. I can also bring over a torpedo heater if you want to see how that would work. Your 2650 bay is plenty far enough away from your straw/hay storage.

Thank you eipo, maybe this weekend I could get some feel for how heavy those cables are.
You are right I think about just brushing off most of the snow and letting the rest of it evaporate off. I put down a stall mat for the blower to sit on and protect the concrete, but as it melted the skids sat in water and rusted. At the moment the middle of the blower is resting on a piece of fence post so it is not sitting in either ice or water. So this would work if there is not too many close together storms.

My need for a heater is morphing, I think I'd also like to be able to blow heat in my general direction if I'm working out there, and also since I don't have block heaters, blow warm air toward a tractor for a while before starting it. Both are starting no problem in spite of the dealer installed 15 40 oil, but the engine might appreciate a little help.

 

[sheepfarmer]

If you would like get the heater then show me a picture of it's connections (most likely lugs with nuts) and I'll be more than happy to make you the short cord for the heater with the proper ends, and the long extension cord with the proper ends, and send it over to you.

thank you, what a kind thought!

 

[MadMax31]

No. Two legs are used to create 208v power. But for 240v power, one three phase leg is split into two with a centre-tapped transformer, creating two new legs of that single phase. That's why the terms "split phase" and "single phase" are synonymous.

Here is what is probably the best simplified description I have ever read:

208 can be had from either Wye or Delta. Its all in the transformer.

120/240 is typical residential feed.
120/208 can be had in either Wye or Delta
208, 230, 277, 460, 480, 575 3 phase are typical commercial/industrial feeds.
BOY is often 208v ( Brown Orange Yellow tape on wires )

Doing commercial/Industrial HVAC for the 15 years, Ive seen alot of interesting things done by electricians. Once we hit 600v, we dont touch the feed. Chillers fed with 2300 or 4600 volt across the line are real treat, though most are wye-delta start. Small wire, small contactors. A 208v chiller is miserable with massive wire and chunky contactors.

As volts go up, amps go down. Power consumption is the same.

 

[sheepfarmer]

The heater has arrived! It is much like the one suggested by skeets, but will run at a low and high setting. I chose the deWalt DXH1000TS because it said it was suitable for unattended use, although I am not sure I will be confident to do that.

Many of the other suggestions, btw, made in the course of this thread, I think would lead to a good or better outcome, especially in other barn configurations, but for better or worse I've embarked on this tangent.

Now the problem is to get it up and running. My trusty electrician has lost an employee and is currently commuting to Detroit for a project, so I am having trouble getting him over to to verify some things, and to do the official wiring. Says in the Owner's manual, to be wired by certified electrician, and provides NO hints. Looks pretty straightforward, but what do I know? (not much).

 

[sheepfarmer]

What I have to work with was described before, but here are pictures just in case:

The heater requires a power source of 240 Vac/42A on a 50 amp/2 pole circuit breaker. I had asked the electrician to put in a circuit and plug suitable for welding in case someone wanted to do that in the new barn. If I look at the panel, which is in the next barn over, there is a circuit labeled "welder", 50 amps with the two switches barred together. The wiring goes under the concrete alley in a metal pipe and comes up in the new barn and ends in a NEMA 6-50 receptacle.

 

[sheepfarmer]

The heater has a hole at one end through which a heavy cord could be inserted with a relatively straight shot to a gadget to clamp 3 wires. You can see this gadget by taking off a port in the outside cover. It is not clear to me how far apart you take this clamping gadget to get the wires in...whether twisting the copper strands will make a good connection etc?

 

[sheepfarmer]

I am planning the wiring to be safe for the high setting, 10kW, and it says in the directions to install a power cord a minimum of 14/3 AWG for 10 feet or less. I was hoping to drag it around the barn, and so 10 ft would get me pretty much nowhere from the current outlet. Previously we have been discussing 6/3 cords, and I have been looking for wiring of the right size. NIW's comments about weight and cost are right on. I had no idea! Carrying the heater and the cord at the same time would be a non-starter for me. So the heater is already relegated to wheels.

In trying to figure out how long a cord I could safely have, I found a table in Wikipedia that seemed to related "ampacity" to length and wire gauge....can someone tell me if this is how you do it?

The table says 14 gauge is 2.5 m ohms/ft and the mfg says max 10 feet, so total allowable resistance according to deWalt would be 25 ohms. If I go to 6 gauge wire, the resistance is 0.395 ohms/foot, so 25 ohms / .395 ohms/foot = 63 feet? Is it linear? Fortunately 63 feet would be overkill, but if you add plugs in between, how do you figure how much that affects resistance?

 

[torch]

Sounds like the receptacle is suitable.

You will need a cord with a mating NEMA 6-50 plug for the heater. Yes, the wiring connects to the terminal block inside the heater that you found. Don't remove the terminal block from the heater -- simply loosen the 3 clamp screws on the left hand side of the block sufficiently to insert the stripped wire conductor ends of the new cord. Those 3 screws probably don't bear directly on the wire conductor -- they probably press down on a piece of flat metal designed to clamp the conductor securely rather than to separate the strands. That said, twisting the strands tightly together before inserting them is always a good idea.

You will need something to protect and retain the cord where it enters the hole in the heater. At a minimum, you will need a suitably sized BX connector. I would suggest for this application, one that incorporates a wire strain relief that looks similar to a Chinese finger puzzle, like this:

(frequently referred to in the trade by the somewhat indelicate term "horse cock").

 

[Tooljunkie]

Personally,i would go 10 feet on cord, and buy a heavy 25 or 50 foot extension cord. Its likely cheaper to go that route and lighter as far as heater goes. Also, this gives you the option of welding in different locations also.

 

[sheepfarmer]

Thanks torch, I hadn't thought about an additional part needed to keep it from slipping, but given the size and weight of the cord that makes sense. It would not be good to rely on the little clamping device. Starting to see why electrician required.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

The heater already has a strain relief fitting on it, just remove the outer nut and there will be a part inside that will expand and clamp onto the jacket of the cord, slide the nut and the expandable piece onto the cord then tighten the nut firmly, but not too tight.

Take the nut and clamping insert with you when you get the wire, as that might have the final bearing on what is the largest size wire that you can use coming out of the heater.

Wire and plug capacity (amp rating) is based on a ton of variables.
Heat (ambient and load related), type of wire, type of insulation, and type of jacket, and length all play a role it this calculation.

Coming out of the heater go with the largest wire that fits the nut and clamp, then the extension cord should be rated for max load, I would go with what I recommended, 6-3 for the long cord.

 

[torch]

The heater already has a strain relief fitting on it,

If it's sized for the #14 referenced in the manual, it's not likely to fit #6 or #8.

Best to take it with you when you buy the cord to make sure.