Regard to synthetic hydraulic oils and engine oils vs. Standard oils

[FrankBaggs1]

After purchasing my 98' B2100 two months ago and finally getting all the electrical bugs straightened out.
I decided to change all the fluids prior to winter in order to start fresh with my maintenance schedule.

After reading post from this forum and from what my Operator's Manual says , I decided to use all Kubota oils for atleast my first change out.

Seems like there's so many differences in opinion when it comes to standard vs. Synthetic.

I was told by the guys at the Kubota dealership that due to the age of my tractor and cost of UDT-2 vs. Standard Universal UDT that the synthetic would probably make no difference. Long story short , I purchased 4 gallons of Standard Universal UDT for alittle over $90.00 after tax .... Ooch !
Was afraid to ask what the synthetic UDT-2 would of cost me. [emoji29]

Was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this issue of a tractors age and use of synthetics.

Cc: Wolfman and RCW



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[Bulldog]

My L3000 is a 2000 model and has synthetic from one end to the other and yes you can tell a big difference between standard fluid and synthetic.

If nothing else it will be quieter, smother, run cooler in the summer and operate better in the winter.

 

[skeets]

Yup what bulldog said

 

[85Hokie]

Yup what bulldog said

Double ditto on what both said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And I really do NOT care what those who say "it really does not make a difference...."

Because it really does make a difference .....a hellva difference.

 

[Bulldog]

My Bobcat has a few leaks so I use cheap stuff in it. I hate it during cold weather trying to get it warmed up. Poor thing sounds about as stiff as I feel most of the time.

 

[lugbolt]

Syn makes your wallet lighter.....

I'm a bracket racer (drag racing). IF synthetic engine oil was so great, it would show up on a time slip, or at the end of a long season at engine and trans freshen-up time. I haven't seen any difference in either.

Most people don't even know enough about "synthetic" engine oils. Base stocks. Polymers. Everything you read online is posted by advertising companies, or people who want to promote a brand or type. To my limited knowledge, only one engine oil shows a big difference and it is synthetically manufactured from ZERO mineral oil stock, but it does not last very long. The molecular content is basically ripped apart by heat and friction a LOT faster than mineral base stock. And the biggest thing about this fluid is that it's about $25/quart the last time I checked-and I'm told that is what it costs the manufacturer to make, bottle, ship it...in other words they break even. Made for road race bikes.

 

[FrankBaggs1]

My Bobcat has a few leaks so I use cheap stuff in it. I hate it during cold weather trying to get it warmed up. Poor thing sounds about as stiff as I feel most of the time.

Well thanks for your input.
I'll consider going synthetic next time around.

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[JeffL]

I know Lugbolt hit the nail on the head! Almost everything you hear about oil is advertising crap. Synthetics will not magically make your engine last longer or whatever. Synthetics only have two advantages over conventional oils. Better flow at reduced temperatures for a given viscosity and synthetics generally have a better additive package that allows extended oil drain intervals. Either oil does not wear out, ever. The additive package does. Jeff

 

[2458n]

My Kubota is 35 years old and has ran on Mobil syn since 1982. In Ohio I have started it outside at -5. Needed to it was at a factory and I took it inside to warm up the hyd oil. The three point would not work. May have wasted money but have never missed it.

 

[skeets]

I think you have a point there lugbolt, but back in the days when we raced, that motor was torn apart just about weekly to check internals. Granted mostly stock motors didnt have to much problems, but once we stroked the 440 things got real interesting and tear downs were mater of fact. So yeah reg old dino is cool, I have been running M1 in every HD I owned and it does make a difference over the long haul, and Redline sync in the trannies and primaries as well.
So apples and oranges here I think. Just MHO

 

[85Hokie]

Syn makes your wallet lighter.....

Lugbolt - I value your opinion, quite a bit. And your history with racing too!

But as history tell us (or teaches) depending on what monument we are tearing down next ..........

ok - back to the topic!

Oils like everything else are under constant change, some things we have change for the worst, some for the better.

Synthetic oil ARE more expensive, true! But......looking at it from a standpoint of what the typical person gets for the duration he/she gets over the money spent initially...... well - it just makes sense!

All new cars now days, from the beamers to the subaru's all require syns in their engines...... very few if any manufactures are still running dino stuff in them, here soon - the dyno stuff will slowly go away from the store shelves too.

Let's talk about the expense - the topic that everyone throws to the forefront when talking about synthetics vs conventional.

Let's make sure the at we talk about where the 99% are using it too, in their cars and trucks....ok, tractors too!

At wally world, hell everyone has one somewhere near!

A gallon+ of excellent quality engine oil - conventional oil 5w30 is about 16 bucks......

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Castrol-GTX-ULTRACLEAN-5W-30-Motor-Oil-5-QT/17200822

and a gallon+ of synthetic oil is 23 bucks.....

So - the cost is more!!! BUT not really, there are those out there that have been told that THEY HAVE to change the engine oil every 3000 miles.......which is just fkn stupid.......

SO - 9K miles later - the conventional oil person has spent 50 some bucks in oil by doing the "right thing" and changing their oil three times.

The person who understand WHAT the benefits of synthetics oil do - will NOT change the oil at 3,000 miles, rather 7K - 12K miles........

So at 9K down the road - the synthetic oil has now lost some of it's wear inhibitors but it is still doing the job.

But the person who bought the synthetic has gained NOT only in the pocket book, but in the POCKETBOOK! - they got a little better gas mileage, they got a lot better quick starts in cold weather with less wear on the engine, they also have an engine that is running a little easier the entire time. ALL the while, they are money ahead.

Now in racing, I have kids that race - they use some crazy stuff, like 50 weight synthetics, and change oils daily!!! GOD that would be $$$$$ as hell!!! Kid describes to me that they have to heat the oil to get it to flow....I asked why, said that the heavy weight helped with the shear of those parts moving at such a crazy speed!

Last point, and that is - synthetics are more expensive in the short run, but once every penny is added over the long - they come out way ahead on point!

 

[RCW]

Syn makes your wallet lighter.....

Most people don't even know enough about "synthetic" engine oils.

Lugbolt - there are few guys here whose opinion I respect more than yours.

You have forgotten more than I will ever know, and it's practical, been there done that, knowledge.

While I've switched to SYN in recent years, some has been by necessity - my truck now uses 0w-20. No dino option.

However, for practical reasons, I've gone to Rotella T6 in my tractor at 5w-40. In upstate New Yorkistan, I've had to blow snow at -8F. Gets cold in the garage, and cold starts are SO much better at 5w versus a 15w.

Hokie mentioned a 7-12k service interval with a SYN engine oil. I'm too old-school for that.

My new truck has a 7.5k interval, as the old one did. Supposedly "free" for 2 years....won't use a bit of it....

I'm more apt to do 1st change at 3,000 miles, then ~5,000 after that. Is it money thrown away? Maybe. Does spending an extra $60 per year make ME feel better on a $50,000 truck? You bet your ass....

I change the T6 on the tractor annually, maybe ~50 hours/year. In that case, I think you'd change it whether dino or SYN due to cold winter weather. So, again, maybe $15 extra per year, but starts are SO much better on a $20,000 tractor/attachments... still makes me feel better.

As far as SYN hydraulic fluid, seems SUDT2 is the better-performer. Much less whine after the 50 hour dump I did, and will likely do it again this fall at 250 hours. Both are long-before the recommended service interval, but again, I'm too much of a dinosaur in that respect....

My newest Stihl trimmer is a 4 cycle FS130. They recommend synthetic 2 cycle oil, to keep valves cleaner. So, everything here 2 cycle is on synthetic 2 cycle oil.

While I used to be smarter (just ask my wife), I don't pretend to understand the science today. You are obviously much more informed.

But by necessity, practicality or choice, I'm using SYN stuff.

My fault is that I don't take full advantage of the supposed longevity of the new SYN lubricants/fluids. That's my choice, and frankly, I'm okay with that.

Like you, for a long time I resisted using synthetic fluids. I don't like paying extra for it, but so far have no reason to say using synthetics have been deleterious to anything other than my wallet.

But again, my choice......

Trust me, I'm not arguing against your philosophy. I'm simply stating how I got where I am with respect to synthetics. I'm sure others here are in a similar spot.

Best wishes, and I really appreciate your expertise!!

 

[JeffL]

A lot of good advice here. I do want to stress a point that RCW hit on.
Never use conventional oil in an engine designed for synthetic oil
Many of the modern engines use devices that are designed for specific oil flow characteristics; variable output oil pumps and variable valve timing. Synthetics flow easier than conventional due to their controlled hydrocarbon molecule chain length. This also goes for changing viscosity; if your engine requires 0W-20 only run 0W-20! Jeff

 

[RCW]

A lot of good advice here. I do want to stress a point that RCW hit on.
Never use conventional oil in an engine designed for synthetic oil
Jeff

Thanks, Jeff. You were a person that came to mind specific to oil expertise, and had contributed to this thread and several others before regarding oils. Like you, not a fan either but know it's a fact nowadays.

But, like you said, my '13 Silverado required a DEXOS certified oil at 5w-30, which I think is at least a SYN blend. I went full SYN to avoid issues.

 

[Bulldog]

I'm a bracket racer (drag racing). IF synthetic engine oil was so great, it would show up on a time slip, or at the end of a long season at engine and trans freshen-up time. I haven't seen any difference in either.

Most people don't even know enough about "synthetic" engine oils.

I had plans to test this for myself when I started building my mustang. It's still in the same place it was (in pieces) and instead of racing I bought tractors, equipment and cows.

My first test so to speak was with a 4' rotary cutter. I engaged the pto and brought it up to speed disengaged and timed it until it stopped turning. Changed the gear oil and did the same again. It turned almost twice as long which told me it was easier to turn than before. Looks like that would also apply in a drag car but that is only my theory.

After using several different brands over the years it's not a fair statement to lump all synthetic oils into one group. They are not equal by no means. One very popular brand I've tried and can see no difference at all is Rotella T6. Other than maybe better cold starts I can't see any other gain so it's a waste of money IMHO.

Lugbolt, I'm curious if you've ever used Amsoil?

I'll fully agree with you that some brands will not make a difference. They're only "synthetic" because of the way the law has worded things and have allowed them to use cheaper base stock but still be classified as synthetic. To put all synthetic lubricants in one category is like saying all apples are bad because you find one rotten one.

My dad always said if you don't learn something new every day you aren't paying attention. So to say that most don't know about synthetic oils only means they're uneducated about the subject and could be missing out on something better.

Please, not trying to start oil war by no means. Just wanted to throw this in the mix and let a different opinion come to light. http://bestsyntheticoil.com/amsoil-testimonials/409000-miles-on-one-amsoil-oil-change/

 

[twomany]

Synthetics provide wonderful cold weather "start up" qualities.
But,
Nothing that five minutes of warm up doesn't cover.

All the other "attributes of synthetics" are for those who do not wish to change fluids. (extended service life due to additives)

If "engine well being" is a money making addition, I've not seen it.

If you are worrying about the service requirement of any who might inherit your "Synthetic only" lubricated tractor, I've got a 67 year old tractor that says dino oil is good enough!
My kids won't wear it out either!
The "warm and fuzzy" doesn't pay the rent, but heck, do what you want. spend and pay.
It's part of the game, and if it makes you feel right, well, that's what it it's worth!

 

[JeffL]

twomany, for a 67 year old tractor I would agree the use of synthetic oils is a waste of money. An engine that old was designed to operate with no additives in the oil.
I would not rule synthetic oil out across all engines. Definitely a place for them in newer engines and cold climates.
The main thing to remember when switching to Synthetic oils is to stay with the recommended viscosity do not go thinner. Jeff

 

[08quadram]

I went to Super UD2 on my bx. Noticed a difference in HST whine. Engine oil is a different matter. I ran mobile 1full syn. In my Ram truck from the day it was new. 125k miles and it has been using 1 to 1 1/2 quarts in 5k miles. Has since 76k miles. Switched back to dino oil mot long after and have noticed no difference in mileage or startup.

 

[lugbolt]

Lugbolt, I'm curious if you've ever used Amsoil?

Yup. Sponsored by Amsoil for a little while. No improvement in anything.

The only fluid I ever tried that did anything was the Yamaha fully synthetic engine oil. 15W30. Good stuff, shows improvements, but also wears out VERY quickly. Grade 5 base stock-which is a true synthetic. $25 per QUART. To my knowledge it is the ONLY true full synthetic engine oil made. Notice I said to my knowledge. Might be others, but the Yamaha stuff showed an average .03-.05 improvement in ET's in the 1/4 mile-ran a little cooler, and showed roughly 1 mph improvement (on an 8.90 door car, naturally aspirated small block). I wasn't getting it for free, I wasn't even getting a discount from working at a Yamaha dealer. I did not see any consistency improvement, thus it came out after a couple weeks and was sent off for a scan, which is how I found out that it was basically ripped apart.

A YZF-M1 road race bike also showed a sizeable horsepower improvement on the dyno. I was there to watch it. I was also told that they need to change the engine oil after every race as it is worn out.

In my road cars, I've always run whatever's on the shelf. Keep in mind they're all old. The diesel truck runs Kubota 15w40, since I have barrels of it. The car (daily driver) runs whatever I have in my hand. Usually mixed breeds, sometimes a little transmission fluid. I ran UDT mix in the engine at one point. Sometimes I scrounge the used oil from work and use it. I bought the car with 24,000 original miles on it and sold it a couple weeks ago with 353,000. It was still running great with no noises. I just found an older one that I like better and that was the only reason I let it go. Shoulda kept it to see if I could get 400,000 out of it. 2004 Mustang 3.9L V6. Good car but no powerhouse. Went back to a fox body that has a 105hp 2.3 because I can actually work on it without using a laptop. It currently has a mixed batch of I think 15w40, 10w30, 20w50, 30wt, and I think I topped it off with 5w20. I call it 5w20-30-40w50. I have another vehicle and another engine to go in it so if it grenades, I'm out nothing but a little time. And I drive the ever living poo out of it. Have to being that it's so underpowered.

 

[Bulldog]

Lugbolt, is that a 8.90 in 1/4? If so that's fast.

Just for my on curiosity what Amsoil did you use? Like I said I wanted to try it in a drag car but never did.