Chip DPF Delete Discussion
- Thread starter MadMax31
- Start date
I dunno, but I traded my new L3301 back to the dealer for a L2501 that has nary a bit of the DPF crap. Glad to be rid of it. Never want to see it again, etc....ha ha.
has there been any progress on a computer reflash or delete kit? I have a B3350 and other than it being inconvenient at times and wasting fuel I haven’t had any problems. But I would trash it all if a could
I have been looking all over the place. I haven’t found anything. Hopefully somebody else will chime in with better news.
North Idaho Wolfman
Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
L3450DT-GST, Woods FEL, B7100 HSD, FEL, 60" SB, 743 Bobcat with V2203, and more
I would say it's not going to happen soon if ever.
#1 issue is the software and reader are proprietary and only dealers have access to it.
I don't know of a single dealer that going to put his dealership on the line to play that game.
Any aftermarket deletes or software rewrites are $$$ based and there really isn't enough $$$ in it for anyone to spend any amount of time on it.
#1 issue is the software and reader are proprietary and only dealers have access to it.
I don't know of a single dealer that going to put his dealership on the line to play that game.
Any aftermarket deletes or software rewrites are $$$ based and there really isn't enough $$$ in it for anyone to spend any amount of time on it.
The money is one issue and the other is the EPA will crack down on whomever is selling the software. What no one has mentioned are grey market engine control systems. I've got no clue but it's possible some countries don't have T4 emission requirements.
Beaudeane
New member
Equipment
MX5800, LA1065, BH92, BB72X, RT72.40, EA 60 in grapple, county line auger
I called PDI the day I got my mx5800 asking if there was a delete for it from them. I did their delete on my 2005 Freightliner Coronado with the 14 liter Detroit engine about 4 years ago. They said not available yet but are working on it for my Kubota. It was expensive on my truck but it’s right now. Made a huge difference in performance, power, down time for repairs, and fuel economy. Was worth every penny to me for it. If the emissions aren’t on it, it can’t break. They did have it for a couple othe brands of tractors so far. I will keep checking and let y’all know when it becomes available what difference it makes in mine. It’s not a chip system, it’s a reflash and several new parts on my truck at least. No the DOT doesn’t check for it so I don’t think the smog police will come to your house to make sure you haven’t tampered with the emissions on the tractor in your shed
Been trying to do research on egr and dpf delete on my kubota tractor......not a lot of info out there,and was wondering if any one has first hand experience with this stuff on tractors.......wondering if gutting the dpf after a regen would be the last regen,due no more restriction detected......or if it has a time counter or key cycle type counter flashed in to the ecm.
North Idaho Wolfman
Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
L3450DT-GST, Woods FEL, B7100 HSD, FEL, 60" SB, 743 Bobcat with V2203, and more
More likely the system would see the gutted the DPF as an issue and do a shut down on the entire system.
Many of you don't like the problems and inconveniences of a DPF, but don't fully understand how an exhaust after-treatment system works.
You cannot just remove the DPF can or hollow it out. If nothing else, you would have no muffler.
There are both delta pressure sensors pre and post DPF which will trigger a regeneration, but it's very likely this engine will do an automatic regeneration after x number of hours on its own, even if the pressure sensors show a clean DPF. This is very common on diesel trucks, and the point is to ensure the DPF never plugs up because of a faulty sensor that reads "good." This is also why "spoofing" the pressure sensors won't work.
It appears there are also EGT sensors in this system. This sensor is used to feed info to the fuel injection system. If EGTs get too high, pistons might be endangered and the engine will compensate with additional fuel.
Some of these tractors, if not all, are using cooled EGR.
A "delete" kit for a truck requires removing the DPF and installing a tuner which changes the ECU "market" setting to off road or military use. This tells the ECU to never run a regen, inject DEF, or allow EGR. Kubota may not have this mode even as a possibility. One problem I see is that some of the sensors in the DPF are required for proper engine operation (e.g. the EGT sensor). Without a signal, the check engine light will come on and power output would be reduced.
I have two Kubotas with the old school IDI and zero emissions controls...I like them and feel confident in their reliability. I just recently purchased a new MX4800 which is fully emission controlled. I'm not worried about it. I'm more concerned about the much higher injection pump pressures and as result the sensitivity of the injection pump to even minute contamination. I fuel my tractors from my pickup-bed mounted transfer tank. I'm not sure I want to do that with this new tractor. Water is a major concern.
I've been driving Powerstroke Super Duty trucks with full emissions controls for some time now (6.7L engines). They've all been pretty good, and regeneration is just a fact of ownership.
You cannot just remove the DPF can or hollow it out. If nothing else, you would have no muffler.
There are both delta pressure sensors pre and post DPF which will trigger a regeneration, but it's very likely this engine will do an automatic regeneration after x number of hours on its own, even if the pressure sensors show a clean DPF. This is very common on diesel trucks, and the point is to ensure the DPF never plugs up because of a faulty sensor that reads "good." This is also why "spoofing" the pressure sensors won't work.
It appears there are also EGT sensors in this system. This sensor is used to feed info to the fuel injection system. If EGTs get too high, pistons might be endangered and the engine will compensate with additional fuel.
Some of these tractors, if not all, are using cooled EGR.
A "delete" kit for a truck requires removing the DPF and installing a tuner which changes the ECU "market" setting to off road or military use. This tells the ECU to never run a regen, inject DEF, or allow EGR. Kubota may not have this mode even as a possibility. One problem I see is that some of the sensors in the DPF are required for proper engine operation (e.g. the EGT sensor). Without a signal, the check engine light will come on and power output would be reduced.
I have two Kubotas with the old school IDI and zero emissions controls...I like them and feel confident in their reliability. I just recently purchased a new MX4800 which is fully emission controlled. I'm not worried about it. I'm more concerned about the much higher injection pump pressures and as result the sensitivity of the injection pump to even minute contamination. I fuel my tractors from my pickup-bed mounted transfer tank. I'm not sure I want to do that with this new tractor. Water is a major concern.
I've been driving Powerstroke Super Duty trucks with full emissions controls for some time now (6.7L engines). They've all been pretty good, and regeneration is just a fact of ownership.
How does economax get around the federal emissions device tampering? How does economax limit their liability in this and other issues?
Just curious. PM me if you'd like to discuss privately.
Just curious. PM me if you'd like to discuss privately.
Re: DPF Issues?
The blame should be properly placed upon the 30 year old, cube dwelling, know nothings that write such nonsensical regulations and, of course, the parasites in Congress who enacted the laws. Few, if any of these know nothings have ever seen a tractor or chain saw let alone used one.
Fortunately, the feds are being forced (kicking and screaming) to return to sanity of late, and there is the prospect that some of the nonsense may be rolled back.
Stay tuned.
SDT
BINGO, 3350.
The blame should be properly placed upon the 30 year old, cube dwelling, know nothings that write such nonsensical regulations and, of course, the parasites in Congress who enacted the laws. Few, if any of these know nothings have ever seen a tractor or chain saw let alone used one.
Fortunately, the feds are being forced (kicking and screaming) to return to sanity of late, and there is the prospect that some of the nonsense may be rolled back.
Stay tuned.
SDT
It will eventually happen unless, as is now possible, the feds return to sanity.I would say it's not going to happen soon if ever.
#1 issue is the software and reader are proprietary and only dealers have access to it.
I don't know of a single dealer that going to put his dealership on the line to play that game.
Any aftermarket deletes or software rewrites are $$$ based and there really isn't enough $$$ in it for anyone to spend any amount of time on it.
The down side, of course, is that if the TIER whatever nonsense is rolled back, you will not be able to give a DPF/DEF tractor away.
Stay tuned.
SDT
Interesting thread to read in as much as both my tractors are pre-tier 4 engines as well as my pickup truck (7.3) Powerstroke.
One thing everyone needs to keep in mind with on road vehicles is, if you remove the emissions hardware, the vehicle is yours forever. Don't plan on trading it in because it's not tradeable unless you reinstall all the hardware prior to trade in.
If the vehicles is leased (as many are today) tampering with the emissions hardware and or tuners can put you in a liability position with the dealer / manufacturer when the lease is up.
Before I retired, I got to deal with the tier 4 mandate everyday with class 8 diesels. a Full 75% of our shop warranty work was emissions hardware related. Lowest bidder components equal a high failure rate and emissions compliant hardware on diesel engines span the entire gamut, from personal vehicles to commercial ones. All the same components from the same lowest bidder manufacturers.
I'm quite content with my pre tier 4 engines. I like seeing those particulates coming out the exhaust. I was brought up with the understanding that with a diesel, if there is no smoke, there is no fire...
One thing everyone needs to keep in mind with on road vehicles is, if you remove the emissions hardware, the vehicle is yours forever. Don't plan on trading it in because it's not tradeable unless you reinstall all the hardware prior to trade in.
If the vehicles is leased (as many are today) tampering with the emissions hardware and or tuners can put you in a liability position with the dealer / manufacturer when the lease is up.
Before I retired, I got to deal with the tier 4 mandate everyday with class 8 diesels. a Full 75% of our shop warranty work was emissions hardware related. Lowest bidder components equal a high failure rate and emissions compliant hardware on diesel engines span the entire gamut, from personal vehicles to commercial ones. All the same components from the same lowest bidder manufacturers.
I'm quite content with my pre tier 4 engines. I like seeing those particulates coming out the exhaust. I was brought up with the understanding that with a diesel, if there is no smoke, there is no fire...
I had a 6.4 that blew up, due to emissions, so many times I got rid of it. My 6.7 just cost me 4k for emissions work. That's not counting the prior 4 times it was in for emissions work. Both had been extremely well maintained and used as they are meant too, AKA towing. I doubt whether the full life cycle cost justify Tier 4. Love my 4740 though.
I do.
Eventually, all things nonsensical return to sanity for whatever reason.
Stay tuned.
SDT, who has been a serious student of history for over 50 years
We got busted by the feds twice in my 30 years or so of working. Once, IRS (but not taxes) and the other time....recently, DOT, driver doesn't carry a CDL and we weren't aware that he had to have one (our own ignorance, and that is no excuse...I know). On the CDL...I'll post a topic in "off topic".
From experience dealing with the FED, you don't win against them, at least not from a personal level. We mostly won our IRS fight but notice I said "mostly". The DOT, nope. They make up the rules however they see fit.
So from those two experiences, I don't trust the FED one bit, and honestly am a little bit paranoid and to this day still have occasional nightmares from the IRS experience. I don't like the federal government, their laws and regs, and I sure don't like the legal system that you have to use to work "with" them.
....that said...
The DPF system and DEF systems aren't EPA mandated. Tier 4 IS mandated, and Tier 4 emissions is basically a standard, which specifies (in a nutshell) how much particulate and how much NOX is emitted from a running diesel engine. How the manufacturers deal with the emission standard is up to the manufacturers. Keep in mind, Tiered emission started way back in about 1965, and was amended several times, which led up to this "garbage". Remember the 1970's emissions? Nightmare, similar to what we are seeing now but looking back, it was so simple and we got in a tizzy for...basically nothing.
Manufacturers chose the cheapest, simplest system possible that would still meet US emissions standards. In the case of this discussion, at the time when they were testing different methods, it was deemed best for everyone that the DEF and/or DPF system would be best. THat's one reason trucks use it. Big trucks that haul basically everything were hit with this stuff around 2007, and many if not all of the companies figured out that it'd add expense to maintenance and upkeep, but they didn't know how much until a few trucks were purchased and put into service. Remember, this was around 2008/9 when it finally started getting more known. Also, on/about 2008/9 we also saw the prices of fuel skyrocket, combined with higher maint/repair costs, we saw costs of everything go up (remember...basically everything we use is hauled at some point by a big truck). Now, the point here is....do you think that trucking companies like this stuff? They hate it too, but again they don't have a choice, so they've learned to deal with it. And honestly, it's not that big of a deal once the technicians figured it all out-at least enough so that they could work on them. Owners and operators also have to be educated-and this also applies to tractors!
Here is my take. Based on what I am seeing with the trucking industry, and what at least the local UPS and FEDEX drivers are doing/seeing, the expense added to the trucks have pushed some of them to get into GAS burning trucks. Most of the local residential delivery trucks are gas burners now, where it wasn't long ago, they were basically all 5.9 Cummins and 7.3 Internationals. When they because too worn out and therefore expensive to repair, they replaced them with gas engine powered trucks, which are mostly GM 6.0 engines I'm told. They aren't any great engine either but they're MUCH easier and cheaper to maintain/repair than the current production diesel trucks are. That begs the question. When are we going to see gas come back to tractors? I remember many moons ago when I had a gas tractor and then I got on a similar diesel (Ford) and the diesel outperformed the gas 5 to 1, BUT that was over 40 years ago and the technology that designs and builds things have come a LONG way (obviously)-and now we have small turbocharged gas engines that make more power and torque at a low engine speed than ever before, sometimes more torque than a diesel does in the same package (but at slightly more fuel usage). I believe that there is a market for it. I spoke with a Kubota engineer and they wouldn't confirm or deny that they've thought of it or tested anything but at the very least, I planted that seed in their brains. Maybe it'll grow, maybe it's a dud-but time will tell.
But until the "roll back" and "gas" happen, we have to deal with this stuff, and hopefully we do it legally. Don't mess with the Fed's because the fines for this stuff aren't cheap, and I personally know of at LEAST one company who lost their business over a fleet of "deleted" pickup trucks. Sure they were enjoying a 2-5 mpg improvement and a reduction in their cost in the form of maintenance/repair but they paid for it MANY times over in the form of fines, and the ultimate loss of their quite profitable business. Farmers take note.
From experience dealing with the FED, you don't win against them, at least not from a personal level. We mostly won our IRS fight but notice I said "mostly". The DOT, nope. They make up the rules however they see fit.
So from those two experiences, I don't trust the FED one bit, and honestly am a little bit paranoid and to this day still have occasional nightmares from the IRS experience. I don't like the federal government, their laws and regs, and I sure don't like the legal system that you have to use to work "with" them.
....that said...
The DPF system and DEF systems aren't EPA mandated. Tier 4 IS mandated, and Tier 4 emissions is basically a standard, which specifies (in a nutshell) how much particulate and how much NOX is emitted from a running diesel engine. How the manufacturers deal with the emission standard is up to the manufacturers. Keep in mind, Tiered emission started way back in about 1965, and was amended several times, which led up to this "garbage". Remember the 1970's emissions? Nightmare, similar to what we are seeing now but looking back, it was so simple and we got in a tizzy for...basically nothing.
Manufacturers chose the cheapest, simplest system possible that would still meet US emissions standards. In the case of this discussion, at the time when they were testing different methods, it was deemed best for everyone that the DEF and/or DPF system would be best. THat's one reason trucks use it. Big trucks that haul basically everything were hit with this stuff around 2007, and many if not all of the companies figured out that it'd add expense to maintenance and upkeep, but they didn't know how much until a few trucks were purchased and put into service. Remember, this was around 2008/9 when it finally started getting more known. Also, on/about 2008/9 we also saw the prices of fuel skyrocket, combined with higher maint/repair costs, we saw costs of everything go up (remember...basically everything we use is hauled at some point by a big truck). Now, the point here is....do you think that trucking companies like this stuff? They hate it too, but again they don't have a choice, so they've learned to deal with it. And honestly, it's not that big of a deal once the technicians figured it all out-at least enough so that they could work on them. Owners and operators also have to be educated-and this also applies to tractors!
Here is my take. Based on what I am seeing with the trucking industry, and what at least the local UPS and FEDEX drivers are doing/seeing, the expense added to the trucks have pushed some of them to get into GAS burning trucks. Most of the local residential delivery trucks are gas burners now, where it wasn't long ago, they were basically all 5.9 Cummins and 7.3 Internationals. When they because too worn out and therefore expensive to repair, they replaced them with gas engine powered trucks, which are mostly GM 6.0 engines I'm told. They aren't any great engine either but they're MUCH easier and cheaper to maintain/repair than the current production diesel trucks are. That begs the question. When are we going to see gas come back to tractors? I remember many moons ago when I had a gas tractor and then I got on a similar diesel (Ford) and the diesel outperformed the gas 5 to 1, BUT that was over 40 years ago and the technology that designs and builds things have come a LONG way (obviously)-and now we have small turbocharged gas engines that make more power and torque at a low engine speed than ever before, sometimes more torque than a diesel does in the same package (but at slightly more fuel usage). I believe that there is a market for it. I spoke with a Kubota engineer and they wouldn't confirm or deny that they've thought of it or tested anything but at the very least, I planted that seed in their brains. Maybe it'll grow, maybe it's a dud-but time will tell.
But until the "roll back" and "gas" happen, we have to deal with this stuff, and hopefully we do it legally. Don't mess with the Fed's because the fines for this stuff aren't cheap, and I personally know of at LEAST one company who lost their business over a fleet of "deleted" pickup trucks. Sure they were enjoying a 2-5 mpg improvement and a reduction in their cost in the form of maintenance/repair but they paid for it MANY times over in the form of fines, and the ultimate loss of their quite profitable business. Farmers take note.