help: convert 220v 3prong plug too two 110v outlets?

[coachgeo]

my home is tiny one bedroom and it's full-size stove/oven and fridge are a bit overkill so downsizing/rearranging. Putting in thinner apartment fridge, removing stove swapping in its place the cabinet taken out when put in dishwasher. Atop cabinet will sit a convection oven and two eye burner (each standard 110v) and maybe occasional crock pot etc..... I'd like to convert the large 3 prong 220v stove plug to two typical 110v 2 socket outlets for the above along with simple bread toaster too. Oh, then there is the drink blender (not alcohol. but powdered protein drinks )

Since it is not a four wire 220v outlet guess I can't put in GFCI in this project?

from what I read two wires are 110v each and one wire is ground. Seems I would change breaker(s) and run each of the 110v wire to each new outlet and share the ground.

Not sure if I have to swap any wires in the main breaker box? (with main shut off)

hmmm.... can I do just this in a pigtail?

Sound about right? Advice please.

 

[Daren Todd]

It gets a little more complicated to get it safe and legal if you ever go to sell the house

The issue is only having 1 ground wire and sharing it for two circuits. Most 110 is power, neutral and ground. In the panel, the neutral and ground wires both hook to the the ground bus in the panel.

To do it correctly, you can use the stove wire for one circuit, just hook the white wire to the ground bus in the panel, as well as green or the bare wire. And hook the black wire to one of the 110 breaker your planning on putting in the 220 breakers place. If there is a 4th color (often red) then leave it disconnected when hooking up the 110.

And run one new set of wires to power the other circuit hooked to the second breaker.

Depending on the draw when everything is powered up and running, you may be able to get away with just the one circuit. If that's the case, then hook it up as stated above, and put a blank cover over the spot for the second breaker.

Just my 2 cents

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[DThrash]

Yes each one of those hot wires should read 110v to ground. You can do it that way, just don't try to run to many things at one time. You could run a jumper from the ground wire that now will be your neutral to the ground screw on your rec. I do have names for that kind of wiring

 

[85Hokie]

Coach,

You are correct, 220 is simply two legs of 110 that are out of phase with one another. But, snagging one branch of 110 and the common and then the other branch and pigtailing the common again would not be the "right" thing to do!

It would be best to re-run a new set of lines, take the double pole breaker out, and replace it with 2 single pole breakers and then run some 12-2wg to the new outlets that you would install. You could dead-head the old 220 - and then if you ever needed to, re-attach it back later if need be.

The 3 wire vs 4 wire is simply adding a ground - 99.99% the ground never has current on it, and is used as another path back to the box.


AND in the old days , the grounds and commons were hooked to the same bus bar in the box, now days they are hooked to TWO different bus bars, but yet, both come back to the "box" where they join again!

Now, if you wanted to do it WITHOUT re-wiring, take the black from the 220, and the white, leave out the red and you'll have 110 - that CAN have a GFI on it also. (remove the red wire in the breaker box also!)

I always thought you NEEDED the ground in the circuit for the GFI to work......not so!

This way you will have one circuit - I still would replace the 220 breaker with the 110 single pole breaker - 20 amp - if 12 gauge wire is used.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

You can safely convert your 50amp 220 to a 110 GFI outlet.
Being that it is aluminum wire you do not want to connect any copper wire directly to the aluminum.

This is if it is 3 wire Black/red/bare or green.
Best way is install a 50amp breaker sub-panel where the oven outlet is now, this will allow you to hook up several 20 amp 110 volt outlets safely.
In order to make it for use with GFI outlets you will need to use the existing ground as the neutral in the subpanel and then add a bond ground, that is easily done by attaching a piece of copper wire to the cold water plumbing pipe as long as it is copper or steel (betting on steel with an old home).
No changes will be needed in the main panel!

If it has a 4 wire feed to the stove outlet then you don't need the extra ground.

NOTE: If the wire for the oven ends in a bad location for the panel add a junction box and then pigtail off of that with a length of wire to move the panel to a suitable location.
And use NOALOX on the wire connection in the junction box.

 

[coachgeo]

You can safely convert your 50amp 220 to a 110 GFI outlet.
Being that it is aluminum wire you do not want to connect any copper wire directly to the aluminum.

This is if it is 3 wire Black/red/bare or green.
Best way is install a 50amp breaker sub-panel where the oven outlet is now, this will allow you to hook up several 20 amp 110 volt outlets safely.
In order to make it for use with GFI outlets you will need to use the existing ground as the neutral in the subpanel and then add a bond ground, that is easily done by attaching a piece of copper wire to the cold water plumbing pipe as long as it is copper or steel (betting on steel with an old home).
No changes will be needed in the main panel!

If it has a 4 wire feed to the stove outlet then you don't need the extra ground.

NOTE: If the wire for the oven ends in a bad location for the panel add a junction box and then pigtail off of that with a length of wire to move the panel to a suitable location.
And use NOALOX on the wire connection in the junction box.

will update once I know what wire it is instead of guessing by looking at the plug. The house was rewired prior to my purchase. for all I know they ran 4 wire to the stove area but only put in a 3 wire plug cause the old stove they reused was a 3pronger.

Figured the water line could be used for a ground. It has also been redone and is copper

 

[BadDog]

I was about to say the same thing, easy to split out a 4 wire to get a pair of 110V, but won't be code, and for a good reason. The breaker is 220V, and likely won't trip at the desired current if you get an overload on only one side.

But back to being 4 wire, you could do better by taking the 220V breaker out and putting in a pair of 110V breakers in the same hole. Then use the 4 wire to run both circuits. Still won't pass inspection (that I know of), but now you are at least protecting both circuits properly. Also, both ends should use terminations that specifically call out aluminum compatibility. On the breaker, definitely get a breaker for aluminum. Can you even get those for 110V for aluminum now? Same for receptacles. Unfortunately I happen to know that you can still get those at any box store, but MOST are CU (copper) only, so you have to look carefully. I haven't seen any wire nuts rated for aluminum other than mail order, but the general wisdom imparted to me was just avoid the darn things, that that's where almost all aluminum related fires start. The wires heat up. The wires oxidize more. They heat up more, the nut gets loose, the cycle repeats many times until the nut pretty much disintegrates, and you get a fire if there are combustible nearby. I found one in THIS house (which still has close to half aluminum) going to an outside light (dim, wouldn't light up right, that's why I was even looking), not even in a box, and the only reason there was no fire is that it was floating up above the ceiling clutter. I found the preferred alternative, particularly for joining to copper (sometimes you just have to) is a sort of screw-block just like you would find in a sub-panel, but just a single that you then insulate with heavy shrink tubing. And you can get them in a box with multiple for a full circuit.

And, as stated always either strip aluminum JUST before terminating, or clean it with a clean scuff pad and immediately apply NoAlox.

Edit: Just saw the last post.

Don't use the water line. Current passing through the line, even low current, can cause it to oxidize, particularly if it runs through the slab. I had to re-plumb my entire house due to the copper in the slab getting lots of little pin holes. I was told it's usually due to a bad neutral connection at the breaker panel, so we went though and re-seated all terminations in the panel. Didn't see anything obvious bad, but that was the stated likely reason for the leaks, though it could have been a small current introduced for other reasons as well.

 

[BadDog]

AND, also realize it's NOT 4 wire. I need to learn to read for comprehension...

But technically same thing really applies to 3 wire, though is certainly against code. If that wire is big enough to carry the combined current, then it DOES terminate at the same point, but it's really not a good idea in a house.

That said, my small welding cart includes a MM175 and an HT380 plasma cutter. And invariably I need a variety of power tools when I'm using it, mostly angle grinders and such. I didn't want a bunch of wires, so I got one big 10 GA 3 conductor like they use for heavy commercial extension cords 30' long. Wired up a 50A NEMA on one end, terminated it in a small panel on the cart, serve both 220A machines from it, and split it for a pair of 4 outlet boxes, one on each side of the cart.

 

[lugbolt]

Anyone who inspected the house and found a 220v single phase circuit split into a pair of 110v circuits in this way would not approve of it, which could cause you some issue if you went to sell it.

Neutral and Ground are not to be considered "the same" even though they may be connected to one another on a bar in the panel.

On a 110v circuit you have a hot, ground, and neutral. On a 220/240v single phase circuit, you have 2 hots and a ground, SOMETIMES a (one) neutral depending on the circuit. You'd need one more neutral and one more ground.

 

[skeets]

Yup and dont forget the local codes too, NEC is one thing but local codes are a PIA sometimes. And God forbid should something happen, IE electrical fire, the Ins company will eat you alive!!!
There is some good advice thats been given, dont mix copper and Al unless you use something to coat the Al wire ,like NoOx. If you dont the Al wire will begin to corrode, to the point that it will turn to dust and cause no end of troubles. Hot connections, intermittent contacts, and so on ,then you have to go back in or have someone else come in and readdress the issue, by opening up all the contact points greasing them up and re-tightening every point, or having to replace things. I dont have an NEC right handy but its spelled out pretty plain in there

 

[coachgeo]

not sure yet if it is 3 wire but suspect it is. Seems to be routed under the pier and beam house and up thru the floor. That being said though looks like for my intended purposes I can get away with just one extra 110v receptacle instead of needing two. This gives me a neutral and a hot wire available but not a ground.

So with that in mind looks like I could Cap off one of the 110v legs. Better yet also remove that wire out of the junction box as well. Then install one GFCI receptacle as if I was replacing an old 2 prong receptacle based on following information. Ide use it exclusively for the 1500w oven NOT near a water source. Would rather be able to use it for the 2 burner cook top but that might get something boiling over on it so guess that throws that idea away.

Another possibility is to replace the two-prong receptacle with a GFCI. Hook up the two wires (hot and neutral) and leave the grounding terminal unattached. Included with the GFCI is a sticker that says, No equipment ground. This sticker must be in place so that future electricians and users are not misled. The thinking behind this strategy is that even though the tool or appliance case is not grounded, the GFCI will provide enhanced safety. It's important to note that a GFCI functions properly without the presence of a grounding conductor. The device compares current flowing through the hot and neutral conductors and trips if a difference of more than 5 milliamps is detected.

above found at http://ecmweb.com/design/10-worst-grounding-mistakes-youll-ever-make found it when looking for why to not ground to water pipes but it is 8 years old.

A GFCI works by constantly sensing the current running though both the hot and neutral wires. If there is even the slightest difference between the two, the circuit is shut off immediately. Therefore if any current is flowing from the hot wire to ground instead of back through the neutral wire the power will be instantly disconnected. That is why no ground wire is needed......

above found at http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=484690 but it is 5 years old

 

[85Hokie]

With the invention of the GFI - more people have been saved than they know.

The little computer chip in there senses a interruption in the current flow, anytime the current is NOT the same going both ways, it trips in a millisecond, great device!

The term "ground fault" is somewhat a misnomer - it should be called, if the electrons goes anywhere else......it will interrupt the flow! Ok - I would hate to see that acronym!

 

[sheepfarmer]

I have a different perspective, maybe because my wall oven doesnt work and it is too old to find parts, they don't make them that size any more etc etc, and I wish I had a working stove, and so I think anyone that might buy your house would be more likely to want one than a countertop model. I get by with countertop stuff but miss a real oven. No turkey or chocolate chip cookies or dutch oven stews

So how about keeping your 220 line and stove, adding a 110 from panel to give more wall outlets, and to expand your counter space get or make one of those stove/burner covers? They make some nice ones and you could borrow some ideas. Could hinge from wall or fold for burner use. I saw some ingenious methods of getting new wall outlets on This old house, where running stuff in the walls had problems. I think the new wiring was concealed behind some ceiling molding, and then fished down just one space between 2 x 4's. The only thing this idea doesn't do is increase your storage cupboards if you are short in that department.

 

[OldeEnglish]

I have a different perspective, maybe because my wall oven doesnt work and it is too old to find parts, they don't make them that size any more etc etc, and I wish I had a working stove, and so I think anyone that might buy your house would be more likely to want one than a countertop model. I get by with countertop stuff but miss a real oven. No turkey or chocolate chip cookies or dutch oven stews

SF you need a Set it and Forget it!
https://www.ronco.com/kitchen-appliances/showtime-rotisserie-5500-series.html
You will not be disappointed
!
I have an older one and use it all the time. I use it for birds, roasts, and steaks. The basket is quite handy for a lot of things, I think I have some sort of rib basket as well but I smoke those. I have a steamer trey that goes on top that steams veggies while it spins. My dog will just lay on the floor watching a chicken spin . I'm in the same boat as you as in not having an oven, thankfully it's just my wife and I so we don't need a big oven. For other things I use a larger toaster oven which is perfect size for us. Once that one kicks it I may upgrade to a convection toaster oven .

 

[coachgeo]

odds are high I'll live here till ... well... I'm not living. At most there will never be more than two people in this one bedroom house that is only 640sqft. Oven I got is one of the larger 110v versions. Cooking space about 12" deep x 8" high, 15" wide.

 

[sheepfarmer]

Coach I've been looking at those, and when my microwave dies maybe a convection micro combination. One can make cookies in a toaster oven, just 6 at a time though.

OE, I am laughing at the possible scenario at my house of 3 dogs looking at chicken going around, waiting for the cat to get the door open on the roaster! She specializes in opening cupboards, closets, doors, and I lost the battle of keeping her off kitchen counters a long time ago she would kill for chicken!

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

One note of caution:
Insurance will not pay when an electrical circuit is altered in a way not up to code.
You can not use aluminum wire to directly run a 110 volt outlet!
And it is plan not safe!

I was a commercial electrician for 10 years, and a general contractor since that.
I've seen so really bad things happen with improperly set up electrical.
If you're lucky the outlet will just quit, worst case it will start a fire and burn!

 

[BadDog]

You can not use aluminum wire to directly run a 110 volt outlet!
And it is plan not safe!

I completely agree in general. The house I'm in was build in '72 at the tale end of the period when aluminum was still allowed by code. Even though I wasn't supposed to, when I bought the house, I popped the lid on the breaker box and saw no evidence of aluminum other than the HVAC runs, which apparently is ok. I figured i would rather listen to the agent squawk than get stuck with aluminum wiring, and I still got stuck with aluminum wiring. I'm working on that. But the point of my post was to ask about the line quoted. I found some over heated receptacles that I had to replace, which is when I found the remaining aluminum wire. I replaced those with aluminum rated receptacles, terminating the aluminum directly (fresh clean and with NoAlox). Clearly aluminum is bad and will be replaced, but my understanding is that you can either pig-tail copper (with the right al/cu connectors) or get the right receptacle.

 

[bxray]

If you want you could put in a sub panel fed by the 50a 220v breaker and add 4 120v circuits.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Murray-6...Mount-Main-Lug-Load-Center-LC002GSU/100140780

You will need a separate neutral bar and ground bar with separate wires, both running back to the main.
They can only be on the same bar in the main panel.

If it is a three wire setup you can use just one side of the subpanel and re designate the red wire as a neutral by wrapping it with white tape and moving it to the neutral bus and the ground to the ground bus.
Use the first and third slot.

This will give you two 20 a circuits.

Home depot has a display of what this should look like.


Ray

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I completely agree in general. The house I'm in was build in '72 at the tale end of the period when aluminum was still allowed by code. Even though I wasn't supposed to, when I bought the house, I popped the lid on the breaker box and saw no evidence of aluminum other than the HVAC runs, which apparently is ok. I figured i would rather listen to the agent squawk than get stuck with aluminum wiring, and I still got stuck with aluminum wiring. I'm working on that. But the point of my post was to ask about the line quoted. I found some over heated receptacles that I had to replace, which is when I found the remaining aluminum wire. I replaced those with aluminum rated receptacles, terminating the aluminum directly (fresh clean and with NoAlox). Clearly aluminum is bad and will be replaced, but my understanding is that you can either pig-tail copper (with the right al/cu connectors) or get the right receptacle.

A lot of houses in AZ form the early 70's had aluminum wire, bad stuff, I remodeled and rewired a ton of them.
As a remodeler and contractor I would not allow any remodel to have aluminum wire remaining in any house I worked on.

They use to recommend / allow copper to aluminum with no Aloc, now it's still considered to be very unsafe, and un-recommended.
The same goes for aluminum wire to aluminum outlets, they still fail at an astronomical rate.

Yes if it was #14 or #12 wire, not multi strand #6 or #4 as what the oven/ stove circuit is.
It's too big of wire to properly use on a low amperage the circuit looking for #14's or #12 and with the larger wire the breaker will not work properly.

The only code way and safe way to do it is to use a breaker panel on the stove end.

Aluminum used as a main feed, sub panel feed, or high amp feed (40 amp or greater), is fine, because they terminate safely and differently.

These 2 "sales pitches" are still a good example of why you don't want aluminum branch wiring period!

http://cooper-electric.net/residential/aluminum-wiring/

http://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/Aluminum_Wiring_Repair_COALR.php