BX1850 Hydraulic Help Needed

[MA Mountain Man]

Hi All,

I need help with some add-on hydraulics.

I’m looking into putting a 3rd function electric over hydraulic valve onto my BX1850 for our BX2750C front mount snow blower attachment. The plan is to make all the controls hydraulic. The L/R U/D controls from the FEL valve will be for chute control and the 3rd function switch for the lift cylinder on the attachment.

I need to tap into the Power Beyond line and the closest one is on the loader valve. The easiest way is to remove the PB line on the valve and use the connection it came with. The hydraulic line on the valve is connected with a banjo style connector and bolt. I would like to find a mating banjo block to ¼” male pipe adapter to mate with the PB hose and a replacement banjo connector to ¼” male pipe adapter to go back onto the loader valve. That would give me ¼” male pipe connectors to use standard hoses in and out of the PB line to use for the 3rd function valve.

My question is, does anyone know what size the banjo style connector is on the BX1850 loader valve? Where can I get an adapter for banjo (male? / female?) to standard pipe fittings? I don’t even know how banjo connections are sized or the proper names of the components. Does a banjo bolt have standard threads or pipe threads?

As you can probably tell I’m just getting my feet wet with tractor hydraulics. Any help anyone can give with recommendations, sizes/names of parts, or explanations is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
- Mark

 

[ShaunRH]

Electrically actuated hydraulic valves are probably not the easiest of entries into hydraulics. It's not a huge leap to get into it, but you might want to find someone with experience nearby that can at least help you and look over your work. With the pressures you are dealing with a mistake can be expensive at the least, fatal at the worst.

We're happy to help out here but starting from scratch needs some experience built hands on, someplace, with someone looking over your shoulder, not a forum group. Just my $0.02 as a cautious kind of thought.

 

[Grouse Feathers]

If you are only using the third function for your snowblower, you might do a search on linear actuators, there are several threads. Several of us with snow blowers have installed a linear actuator to tilt the chute. It would be much cheaper and easier to install then a third function hydraulic. A linear actuator that will tilt the chute can be had for about $75 from Surplus Center.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/

 

[RCW]

I might be missing something here - - I have the BX2750 blower. I rotate the chute manually.

The Up/Down control is one side of the FEL....isn't the hydraulic chute rotation the other side? No need for a 3rd function?

There is no Left/Right angle function for a snowblower, thus the other side of the FEL is free for chute rotation, correct??

I guess chute tilt is a 3rd, but that's not how I read it. I might have missed it though.

I've had good luck with the BX2750 over 2 very tough winters.

 

[MA Mountain Man]

Electrically actuated hydraulic valves are probably not the easiest of entries into hydraulics. It's not a huge leap to get into it, but you might want to find someone with experience nearby that can at least help you and look over your work. With the pressures you are dealing with a mistake can be expensive at the least, fatal at the worst.

We're happy to help out here but starting from scratch needs some experience built hands on, someplace, with someone looking over your shoulder, not a forum group. Just my $0.02 as a cautious kind of thought.

Thanks for the words of caution ShaunRH. Always better to be safe than sorry.

Sorry if I misled you into believing I was a total noob. I have had a tractor for years now. It is an old Ford 3400 gasser 38hp TLB. It has similar hydraulic pressures but hoses much larger and none of these banjo bolt connectors like this little BX1850. This is the first time I'm digging into this Kubota's hydraulics and I'm at a loss as to what to call the banjo style fittings, which is male and female, and where to get the flat block to npt adapter. If I can't find the fittings I need I will just cut 2"-3" out of the metal PB tube and braze in a pair of 90 degree 1/4" npt male connectors.

- Mark

 

[RCW]

The plan is to make all the controls hydraulic. The L/R U/D controls from the FEL valve will be for chute control and the 3rd function switch for the lift cylinder on the attachment.

Mark - just to clarify my earlier post, the blower connects to a front hitch with PTO shaft and Up/Down hydraulic cylinder. There are a couple different model #'s of the hitch.

The Up/Down control of that front hitch is designed operate off the Up/Down side of the FEL control, including FLOAT, which is VERY important for smooth blower operation.

I think that leaves the other side of the FEL for a chute rotator. I don't have one, but I think that's how they run. Some guys here have made there own rotators.

The UP/DOWN control of the CHUTE could be a third function. So far, I haven't found a need for that control - do it very occasionally by hand.

Good luck!

 

[MA Mountain Man]

If you are only using the third function for your snowblower, you might do a search on linear actuators, there are several threads. Several of us with snow blowers have installed a linear actuator to tilt the chute. It would be much cheaper and easier to install then a third function hydraulic. A linear actuator that will tilt the chute can be had for about $75 from Surplus Center.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/

Thanks for the input Grouse Feathers.

I've thought about using electrical linear actuators for the chute deflection angle but I decided to go hydraulic with quick disconnects on the tractor. I am hopeful to use the extra hydraulic function next Spring for a small grapple. If I use the linear actuator it will stay on the snowblower and the extra function would be lost after its removal for Spring work.

- Mark

 

[MA Mountain Man]

Mark - just to clarify my earlier post, the blower connects to a front hitch with PTO shaft and Up/Down hydraulic cylinder. There are a couple different model #'s of the hitch.

The Up/Down control of that front hitch is designed operate off the Up/Down side of the FEL control, including FLOAT, which is VERY important for smooth blower operation.

I think that leaves the other side of the FEL for a chute rotator. I don't have one, but I think that's how they run. Some guys here have made there own rotators.

The UP/DOWN control of the CHUTE could be a third function. So far, I haven't found a need for that control - do it very occasionally by hand.

Good luck!

Thanks for helping me think this through RCW. Sorry for the long post but I'm still in the planning stages for the hydraulic work and still figuring it all out.

The FEL controls I want to be for the chute control to make operation as natural as possible. Our area is very uneven and we absolutely need chute deflection control in order to put the snow into the places we have for piles. I've been blowing snow on this property for +40 years with a walk behind blower. The biggest problem I face while snowblowing on foot is where that snow is headed.
The third function is planned for the hitch lift. This snowblower is planned mostly for my wife to be using complete with heated cab. If I can get all the functions on the joystick and in a fashion that was natural to the user I think that would be helpful to her. I don't want her to be faced with a collage of levers, knobs, and switches all in different places to make the snowblower function. On the walk behind there is a fwd/rev speed lever, a deflection lever, and a chute rotation handle.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "Float". I think I can fathom the concept, the front hitch moves up and down with terrain but I fail to see how it would be achieved by anything other than the 3 point hitch in draft mode. The FEL controls I have on the BX1850 lock into position even when the tractor is not running.

It's not a bad idea though. I could put in a "Float" valve that disconnects the lift cylinder from the controls and connects the two sides of the lift cylinder together. I'm going to have to draw out the circuit though to make sure it wouldn't deadhead the pump accidentally if she pushed the third function at the same time the float valve was engaged. That valve arrangement would allow the weight of the snowblower to hold its ground position going down hills and the push of the snowblower going over hills to allow the hitch to follow upwards. As my handle here suggests we live on a mountain and everything is either uphill or downhill.

Again sorry for the long post. Still thinking it through so I only have to do this mod once.

- Mark

 

[ShaunRH]

Well, the electric over hydraulic actuators (entirely encompassed unit) can go up to 20+tons of force.

It's far easier to run wires than hydraulic lines, and generally, since the units are self contained, they are far safer.

If you do not need anything more than a single 3rd function, I'd strongly suggest looking into Electro Hydraulic units and staying away from Electrically actuated hydraulic valves which gets you the most complicated of the mixed environment.

Here's an example of a pretty compact unit that can get you from 6" to 14" of stroke:
http://kybfluidpower.com/Catalogs/MMP/MMP4_FLYER.pdf

They are generally referred to as Electric over Hydraulic actuators, but it's somewhat country and region dependent. I've seen them called linear actuators, or electrohydraulic linear motors, etc. etc.

I'll see if I can find the other thread discussing this.

 

[MA Mountain Man]

Well, the electric over hydraulic actuators (entirely encompassed unit) can go up to 20+tons of force.

It's far easier to run wires than hydraulic lines, and generally, since the units are self contained, they are far safer.

If you do not need anything more than a single 3rd function, I'd strongly suggest looking into Electro Hydraulic units and staying away from Electrically actuated hydraulic valves which gets you the most complicated of the mixed environment.

Here's an example of a pretty compact unit that can get you from 6" to 14" of stroke:
http://kybfluidpower.com/Catalogs/MMP/MMP4_FLYER.pdf

They are generally referred to as Electric over Hydraulic actuators, but it's somewhat country and region dependent. I've seen them called linear actuators, or electrohydraulic linear motors, etc. etc.

I'll see if I can find the other thread discussing this.

Thanks for the advice ShaunRH.

Grouse Feathers had the same thoughts. He had the same caveat about only using the 3rd function for the snowblower.

I realize how much safer and less expensive the electric actuators are compared to hydraulics. And I know I am taking the harder path to get to a similar endpoint. However, besides using the 3rd hydraulic function for the snowblower, I am hopeful that I will pick up a small grapple and will need a 3rd hydraulic function for the "pinch" cylinder.

With that in mind I'm still hooked on hydraulics for this mod and the electric valve would give full control on the joystick handle after I replace the OEM knob with a scorpion knob or similar.
http://www.farmequipment24-7.com/Handle_for_Electric_Over_Hydraulic_Valve_Kit_p/g3-100handasy5.htm

- Mark

 

[RCW]

Mark - -

I'm not familiar with your BX1850, but I'm assume your FEL already has a "float" function on the "lift" side of your control.

Typical, as is my BX2360, is fully forward on the joystick until it snaps into a detent. Then your loader bucket, or your snowblower when mounted, will follow the terrain up and down. Float only works on the lift side; there is no float on the bucket curl function.

Coupled with rotation on the joystick, I think it would be intuitive for control.

Leave the deflection control as a separate unit. Just my opinion after using a 4-foot tractor-mounted blower on the same property for 20 years.

I can very much relate to the uneven ground, see my yard that I do for the dog! Not much of my place is level, either.

Thus my strong recommendation about the FEL control for the float function - its a must!

There are many guys/gals here with the same snowblowers, I think they will agree.

Again, good luck! If I can help further, I will be glad to!

 

[RCW]

Mark -

I should have pointed you here first. These are good resources for literature about your tractor, front hitch, and snowblower.

http://kubotabooks.com/

http://www.kubota.com/part/partsList.aspx

Also, something about Workshop Manuals (WSM) - great stuff for tractor work!

http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20111

Sorry to be long-winded, I'm just concerned you're over-thinking it - like I so often do!!

 

[MA Mountain Man]

Thanks RCW,

Now you got me thinking about the FEL controls and if I do have a float mode on there or not. I haven't found it yet but then again I wasn't looking for it. I will have to do a little exploring next time I play tractor. I didn't find it when I was trying to do a little back drag grading with the loader bucket last year. It would have been very handy for that.

I do have two manuals for my BX1850 that I picked up from Messick's. I know I have the owner's manual. That's good for service intervals, proper fluids to use, and finding what levers do what. I will have to see if that has any mention of a float mode for the FEL. I'm not sure if the other manual is the WSM or not. If it is the WSM, there was precious little it covered for the FEL hydraulics in there. I read both of the manuals over last weekend trying to find info. Neither had much of value to read about the work I am planning. No sizes of fittings/ tube/ or hose, no proper names for the fittings, no torque specs for how tight the fitting should be. The one I suspect as the WSM had a total of five pages dedicated to the FEL hydraulics. Three of those pages were 2D drawings of the top of the FEL valve and the flow paths for the three different positions. It did offer the order of parts to remove to reach to loader valve. I will double check both this weekend.

- Mark

 

[RCW]

There are probably many threads regarding float. Just happened to find this one searching "float", if link works.

http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19284&highlight=float

Again, don't know 1850's, but another member was asking about same tractor/snowblower combination recently.

Could also search 1850, 2750, your loader model #, hitch model #, or hydraulic rotator for hook-up options.

I think most of the "modern" Kubota loaders float, but that is a guess on my part.

Good luck!

 

[RCW]

Mark - how did you make out?? Have float on FEL control??

 

[MA Mountain Man]

Mark - how did you make out?? Have float on FEL control??

RCW -
Sorry for the slow reply.
I'm signed up for instant notification but I am not receiving any notice. I just happened to check the thread tonight.

I did a little exploring with the FEL controls this weekend. Come to find out It not only has a float detent on the lift control valve it also has a soft dump detent on the wrist control valve. Found the explanation in the back portion of the operator's manual. They define it as "Dump 1" and "Dump 2" but don't really explain what to use it for.

I've been in contact with two hydraulic solenoid companies. So far no luck finding a solenoid that can float and lock. I can see clearly that I have to have the float function for this snowblower to hug the ground and not dig it up. I might have no other choice but to go with the electric actuator chute deflection. I'll hopefully know more Monday.

I got in all the replacement bearings for the BX2750C this weekend. Made sure they were all solid collar dual set screw. Had to replace the impeller (fan) because of the original eccentric collar single set screw broke and allowed the impeller fan to bounce between the housing and backing blowing a few shear pins. The previous owner repaired the chain and replaced the pins with grade 8 bolts. That made the linkage strong enough to bend up the impeller fan when it happened again. I can get the wire brushing and painting done next weekend hopefully. Seems like I still have a long way to go. It is still August, but not for too much longer.

- Mark

 

[RCW]

Super - glad to hear! Will make future loader work more enjoyable too!

Honestly, I think you're pretty better off. Might have been an expensive proposition to assemble all new controls.

I don't remember if your blower has hydraulic rotation already, but the Kubota option kit is $800, which is WAY too much $$ in my book. Several guys here have made their own. I still have the brand new electric rotator in the box from when I bought the tractor - several have said they don't last in the elements. I've gotten used to manual rotation. I only adjust deflection occasionally.

I was skeptical about mine after having a similar size JD snowblower for many years. I'm not a big fan of the skid shoes on the Kubota model, but it has proven itself worthy!

Why would someone EVER replace shears with Grade 8?!?!? Sounds like that led a rough life before it got to you....sounds like it will be taken care of much better from here on out!

Best of luck!!

 

[MA Mountain Man]

Super - glad to hear! Will make future loader work more enjoyable too!

Honestly, I think you're pretty better off. Might have been an expensive proposition to assemble all new controls.

I don't remember if your blower has hydraulic rotation already, but the Kubota option kit is $800, which is WAY too much $$ in my book. Several guys here have made their own. I still have the brand new electric rotator in the box from when I bought the tractor - several have said they don't last in the elements. I've gotten used to manual rotation. I only adjust deflection occasionally.

I was skeptical about mine after having a similar size JD snowblower for many years. I'm not a big fan of the skid shoes on the Kubota model, but it has proven itself worthy!

Why would someone EVER replace shears with Grade 8?!?!? Sounds like that led a rough life before it got to you....sounds like it will be taken care of much better from here on out!

Best of luck!!

Thanks RCW,

The chute rotation is what got me into this mess. My Wife and I are both used to the manual rotation of our walk behind snowblower but there is no nice way into the cab that came with the tractor for the manual rotation. I would have to break out a window to get the shaft into the cab. Besides the original shaft was all bent up by vandals who broke into the shed that the unit was kept in by the POs. The vandals bent up the rotator shaft and stole the mid PTO shaft. I guess it was the right size to use like a baseball bat and whack on things.

So, I need to have a different way to rotate the chute. I don't want the electric version for the same reasons you listed. I'm sure I can build a hydraulic one up for a lot less than $800. Any idea what comes with the Kubota kit? Do they use a torque limiter? If they included a torque limiter I can understand the cost. Cheapest one I found so far capable of doing the job is ~$200 and it is about the size of a hockey puck. Add that on top of the motor, mounts, hoses, and quick disconnects and it all comes out around $700 -$750 for everything new plus my labor. At which point I might as well drop the extra $ and buy the Kubota original setup.

I figure without a torque limiter I will need to cut the notches on the chute collar so they go all the way around. That way I don't tear the rotator apart when it hits the end. Only problem with the all the way around idea is that we will be able to blow the snow onto the tractor if we aren't careful.

I am worried about the shoes on the BX2750 as well. Glad to hear you like them on yours. I'm going to need to address the shoes and scraper blade before I use it. How far do you have your shoes below the blade? We have a paved driveway and I don't want to dig up any asphalt for the auger to eat. I was thinking of buying the type with rollers for my walk behind snowblower. Don't suppose they have anything like that for the tractor blowers.

Thanks again for all the help you have been.
- Mark

 

[RCW]

I missed the "heated cab" in your profile, but now I see where you're heading.

Unfortunately, I haven't a clue about the hydraulic rotators other than cost. I looked at one mounted on a blower, but that was the extent of it. Clueless, I took my electric unit in the box back to the dealership a couple years ago, thinking I'd "trade" for the hydraulic one - - - DUH!!

But still, whether factory or fabbed, it should be "plug and play" with the other side of your FEL control. Electric actuator for deflection, if you think you need it. (Gotten so I have pretty good aim in tight quarters)

I can't say I like the shoes, but they work. The newest blower model has them to the outside of the housing, not underneath and inboard. This is similar to the 47" JD I ran many years.

My driveway is stone, so I drop the shoes as far as possible at first (1.5"), then raise them as I get a hard base built (.75"). Since I do part of the lawn, I have to have some freeboard.

A good friend has had the same blower on a long, paved driveway for 5 or 6 years with no issue. He runs his so it just barely scrapes the blacktop. I think he has more issues if he wanders off the asphalt a little, will peel up the sod quick without an outboard shoe.