Help me explain why someone should buy a non-DPF tractor.

[Grateful11]

Wife and son have been looking at a Kubota MX5100 or an MX5200. The 5100 supposedly only has an EGR and is interim Tier 4, the 5200 has an Common Rail and a DPF and is full Tier 4. The 5100 has an EGR but not sure if it has the Common Rail stuff. I'm no diesel mechanic and they make me research all this stuff for them. So could someone explain to me in "layman's terms" so I can explain to them why it would be better to get the 5100 over the 5200 or is going to make that much difference, I think it will because of all the Regen stuff I've been reading about. There's about a $3000 difference between the 2 tractors. They are wanting Hydrostat, Skid Steer style Loader, 3rd Function, and at least one set of rear remotes and thinking about going with R1's over R4's like they have on the Kubota L3940. They need another small loader tractor.

BTW: It's taken me days to find what few MX5100's are left out there. Most dealers don't want to let go of what they have for transfer so we may have to go a ways to get one. One dealer in Ohio has 5.

 

[Dieselbob]

The less emission control equipment your tractor has, the the more reliable it will be and the less expensive to own over the long haul. That equipment will do nothing for you but aggrivate you and help empty your wallet. If you can't avoid the EGR valve, at least try to avoid the DPF if possible. Always remember that without laws, nobody would WILLINGLY put this garbage on an engine. It's very operation runs completely counter to the efficient operation of an internal combustion engine.

 

[CaveCreekRay]

Tier 4: "Cloggulator" is installed.

You know the catalytic converters on cars? They get super hot and burn up any particulates that the engine passes. Diesels don't run hot enough for a cat to do much but they have a device that works like a cat, except you have to run at high RPM for awhile to get the EGT up to make the cat work. I call it "The Clogulator."

The "Cloggulator" does essentially the same thing but it does so over time and once fully clogged, it turns on the "Cloggulator-de-cloggulation" light. That means, to burn off the captured soot, the motor must be run at higher RPM for a period of up to 30 minutes or so to burn off the cloggulating particulates. Then you are good to go for another period until it clogs up and needs another de-cloggulation.

Mine has no decloggulator and I am happy about it. I suppose if you plow a field at high power settings every few days or run a mower likewise, you probably burn up the soot as you go. If you do stuff around the farm and tow trailers and small implements, you'll end up having to run the tractor through this cycle periodically. It doesn't seem to be a big deal as long as your motor doesn't go berserk and run away because of the complexity associated with the cloggulator and its integration with the fuel control. I hear the recalls have taken care of that.

Wolfman... did I miss anything?

 

[nickelplated5s]

T4 Ford Super Duty's are built so the cab comes off, bout a 1 hour job if you know what you're doing. The point is T4 adds so much junk you can't work on the motor without pulling the cab. Less systems = more reliability.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Wolfman... did I miss anything?

Nope, I think you covered that quite nicely!

The MX5100 would be my choice!
Get one while you can!

 

[DocGP]

I am sure there isn't the market share needed for someone to come out with delete kits for Kubotas

Doc

Oh yeah, edit to add; my favorite new word in a LONG time......the Clogulator!!!!

Thanks!!

 

[nzzshl]

This is Kubota's description of the "Common Rail" system: "When it comes to clean performance, the common rail system electronically controls the fuel injection timing and amount in stages rather than all at once for optimal combustion, greater efficiency, better fuel economy and less engine noise."
I am in agreement of the general statement of "less is more" regarding emission control devices. However, I see distinct advantages to the fuel metering systems, not altogether different than those on modern fuel injected car and truck engines. The die hards will claim that the days of simple carburetors should still be around but they never produced the power of the modern electronically metered injection engines and contributed to a far shorter overall engine life due to coarse fuel washing of the cylinders. I am clearly a proponent of electronic fuel demand metering as a stand-alone system.

 

[CaveCreekRay]

nzzshl,

No argument there.

Its just a "clumsy" solution to get the remaining particulate matter collected in a catalyst style collector and then to have to burn more fuel to generate enough heat to clean it out.

I have been in direct line with my L3800 exhaust many times. Once warmed up, you can barely smell the exhaust fumes characteristic of diesels and there is zero soot on my exhaust pipe. So what did the new design gain?

Probably a percentage decrease in emissions with the fuel rail, no problem with that improvement. Too bad they weren't allowed to quit there. Its unknown whether or not the HP increase is a result of the fuel rail (as you see in direct injection gas engines) or was engineered in due to a HP loss as a result of the emission system.

Like it or not, its here.

 

[Tooljunkie]

T4 Ford Super Duty's are built so the cab comes off, bout a 1 hour job if you know what you're doing. The point is T4 adds so much junk you can't work on the motor without pulling the cab. Less systems = more reliability.

Cough cough (B S ) cough cough.
I worked next to the diesel tech for almost a year-pulling cab was a four hour ordeal. It makes for a better job that was by far easier on the technician.
That diesel tech was the top earner in the shop,the best diesel guy i have ever met.

all this compliance is becoming a performance killing money eating waste of fuel and time. Caterpillar didnt make an engine that could comply to the emission standards for on the road use for a couple years. Remember our tax dollars are paying the people who make the enviromental rules.

This is based on information fed to them from scientists examinaning holes in the ozone layer,who's greatest concern was how long they could the scientific expidition going. (From someone providing services to the scientists)

 

[Grateful11]

I've finally found a dealer that has 2 MX5100 HST's but is still quite a ways away and we will be paying them a visit this week to see what kind of deal we can cut.

My wife has been reading over this thread and threads I posted elsewhere trying to convince them they need to move on this now and not wait if they want to stay away from the DPF. This tractor will be operated in sheds and stables with hay and straw and like the L3940 will have a constant intake of hay dust, radiator screen can get clogged in no time, and unless it's going to be turned off and on 5 or 6 times a day in a 30-45 minute period everyday it sounds like there's going to be a lot leaving the throttle turned up. Will also not be unusual to run it hard loading a 155 bushel manure spreader sometimes 15-20 in a given period or cleaning a concrete cow lot of about 6000-8000 sq.ft.

I appreciate all the great info on this. I hope and I'm sure many others do also that with time this will get worked out and something better to control the emissions will come along, it happened with road vehicles after many years of trial and error. We did look at the Mahindra's briefly with their DOC system but this is a full time working cattle farm with 2 full-time employees, wife and son and the equipment here needs to ready and willing at all times. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Mahindras but when you're on a lot with tractors leaking and drawbars not even installed correctly it makes on wonder what kind of service dept. the dealer has.

If anyone has anything else to add it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[sheepfarmer]

, and unless it's going to be turned off and on 5 or 6 times a day in a 30-45 minute period everyday it sounds like there's going to be a lot leaving the throttle turned up. .

I think you will be happy with your choice, but if not able to get that tractor, don't worry hugely about it. I have mostly heard about cold weather problems and user error problems with the new ones. I also have the impression the bigger the tractor and engine, the better it is going to work. (Unless they introduce something else new into those engines).


I have a similar problem on my farm but after emailing Kubota tech support who said just shut it on and off as needed, that's what I do. I don't even want to breathe the fumes at idle. If I can, I run it with the rpm up, when I have something for it to do that requires it. Auto throttle is wonderful for that. But if I have to get off and load something into the bucket that takes 10 min. I shut it off. I don't leave my diesel pick up idling either, it would get stolen these days. I think that is just for giant diesel engines. These new Kubota engines start like a dream, so little wear on the starter. The tractor is designed to need a regen every 20 hrs or so, and it is way less than that at high rpm uses and in warm weather.

However, you do have to pay attention to the directions, and given that you might have multiple users, that would be a down side on your operation.

Further...it is still new technology on a tractor even if old on the cars, and none of us knows what other bugs will show up. I think a good dealer is key. So far Kubota has been good about taking care of problems.

Hope you enjoy your new tractor whatever the kind!

 

[nickelplated5s]

Cough cough (B S ) cough cough.
I worked next to the diesel tech for almost a year-pulling cab was a four hour ordeal. It makes for a better job that was by far easier on the technician.

Maybe for him but Ford only pays one point something for warranty work.

 

[brews79]

Your on the right track .....Kubota and all the others would toss all that emissions hub bub to the curb if they could. Nobody wants that junk on their tractor and nobody wants to build one. Thank the tree hugging ..global warming screaming masses and your legislator if they were responsible ....In the mean time buy you a planet killing tractor and live long and prosperous.

 

[virginiavenom]

so does anyone sell the DPF delete with a tune that can remove regen, or at least fool the computer into thinking it doesn't need to regen?

 

[nickelplated5s]

I doubt it for two reasons; 1) the number of potential customers isn't that big, you would need separate programs for each model tractor. 2) the EPA has cracked down on companies doing the software & hardware.

The only way I think it could be done is to buy PCM's (computer control's) from a country without T4, machine EGR block off plates and fab new exhaust. It will void your warranty of course, why I never did it to my truck and bought an '09 Kubota. I'm also betting my Kubota's value holds pretty well.

 

[Wild and Free]

EGR engine do not like not being warmed up good and being worked, extended idling plugs the intake fairly quickly at low idle low heat operation.

DPF is better here but one needs to let regen happen when needed I do not know if Kubota has like trucks where you can run a manual regen cycle. Most of the selective catalyst systems have the bugs worked out of them and are designed to last the life of the engine before replacement is necessary if all is operated and maintained as designed. Not saying there isn't an odd issue at times as is with all mechanical things but they have been around long enough that the bugs are for the most part gone.

On the newer common rail engines clean reliable diesel fuel supply is an absolute must along with religious fuel filter changes with a quality filter as this is going to give more issues than the emissions system in most cases, you don't want to be paying for CR injectors as they are very spendy as compared to the old mechanical injectors and when they go they tend to take pistons with them a lot of times.