Soil Cultivation Methods

[OldeEnglish]

Hello Everyone,

I am looking to get some input on everyone's methods of cultivating sod into plantable soil for a large area. I know there are a lot of different attachments out there and everyone has their own way of doing it, so please share. Let everyone know what you're using for attachments, soil type, how many passes it takes, how much area, how long it takes, and what tractor your using.

For me, I'm still a green horn that has only used a Troy built pony for hours upon end . The pony is far too small for what I'm looking to do within the next few years and would be using a B2910 to cultivate 3-5 acres. It's nice and rich soil with thick sod that used to be farmland long long ago, but the chance of hitting fieldstone within 18" is a definite. That being said, I believe a 3 pt tiller would get torn up pretty bad and not be cost affective. I do live around a few farms and have never noticed them cultivating soil with a tiller.

Basically I'm looking to cultivate and mound rows from sod for berry plants. I haven't decided wether the row centers will be grass or dirt yet, but I'm leaning towards dirt.

Also, if anyone has ever turned briar overgrown land into plantable soil please share your methods from start to finish.

 

[HighSierra79]

No master gardener here, but I would suggest turning that ground with a plow before this winter. In MO, clayish, rocky soil. Broke 2 acres of virgin pasture this spring, and worked all summer for next year. Was full of Bermuda.

Bought a 2 row dearborn cultivator, cut in half, use one for a ripper, other one for a 1 row/hiller. Ripper is 4ft wide, with new sweeps. Covers my area pretty good. Only use my tiller to prep before planting, usually then back to those cultivators. Run a 78 b7100d, w/HF QH. Good luck. Many great answers to come.

Almost forgot, I ran a rock rake thru my ground multiple times to extract those big suckers. Was also able to get down about 5" with those dearborns too.

 

[Eric McCarthy]

Im sorta puzzled with your post. I assume your looking to tear the sod out thats on the ground now. And turn the land into a crop??

 

[koja]

Im sorta puzzled with your post. I assume your looking to tear the sod out thats on the ground now. And turn the land into a crop??

Confused also . Why would you want to tear up the sod to hill berry plants ? What kind of berries ? Wouldn't think you need to hill for blueberry, raspberry or the such . Strawberries , I would use round up on the lanes and use a rototiller for the planting areas . I may be understanding your post wrong , but if you have a limited amount of top soil over limestone I wouldn't disturb anymore than you have too .

 

[skeets]

Ok so you are either planting a big communal garden or food plots for critters,,,
In MHO check with your dealer and see if he has equipment to rent for a weekend. Rent a tiller and you wont worry about turning over the ground with anything else.
Now I would go with the tiller first and always, for what your doing it is the most cost effective thing for you to do.
As far as removing the sod, nada, just grind it in several passes getting lower with each pass and not to worry about rocks, your 3 point will let it jump up and the depth of your tiller is about 8 to 9 inches max, you don't need to go any deeper.
A plow, disk, harrow and such is going to cost you a bunch, IF you can find used, and new ones are out of sight.
I have run tillers through the nastiest stuff dirt wise you can think of from yellow gumbo to almost freekin slate.
At the old place we put in about 200 yards of grapes, for a friend in some of the most un tillable ground I have ever dug up.
You take your time and it will do everything you want,,, UNLESS your thinking about taking up the sod and selling it,,, that's a different ball game

 

[OldeEnglish]

Hey guys,

Im sorry if I confused everyone. I'm basically trying to start a conversation about what everyone uses to turn grass into plantable soil, and also briar filled land into cultivated soil.

This isn't a project I'm looking to start ASAP I'm just in the planning stage. I'm looking to start a small berry farm consisting of blueberries, raspberries, black raspberries, and blackberries. Why some may ask.... One, to combat rising real estate taxes, and two to create an income 6 years down the road with a pick your own setup and to sell mature plants. I'm new to using a tractor to clear and cultivate soil, but have been growing berries all my life. The plants I do have are planted in an area that seems to stay on the dry side and they are not hilled rows.

I have two properties that this can be done on. Both tend to have a lot of ground water that seems to stay for a very long time until you get a few months of hot and dry weather. If it rains a lot, that dry ground will be right back to spongey ground. Hilling the berry rows would prevent any root rot, but at the same time an irrigation system would have to be installed to insure the plants won't dry out. That's not a huge deal because there is a 100+ year old stone walled well on the property that always has water and recovers quickly even in dry times. With that being said, if I spend thousands of dollars on plants, I don't want to lose them to root rot or any diseases that come from overwatered ground. This property is already cleared and is all lawn.

The second property is my wife's. It also is old farm land that her family used to live off of and has 3 hand dug wells. It hasn't been taken care of in many years and is now mostly grown in with small to large saplings and overgrown briars. I've cleared cleared land like this before by hand when I was a kid (didn't own a tractor at the time) and it took many many years and some seriously hard work. Within my family we have two kubotas now so clearing land by hand is out of the question! I'm looking to see if anyone has cleared land like this into plantable soil. How did you combat the briar roots so that they didn't pop back up? I know round up works well on the roots but I'm not a huge fan of chemicals and poisons. Also if I decided to get it certified as an organic operation they would frown on that. This property has very wet ground, but also has a few wells and a brook that flows through it.

Renting is a great idea, I do have a JD dealership that rents heavy equipment, I'll have to check and see what else they rent. I'm pretty good at finding things used as long as I'm patient, but I wouldn't mind owning equipment that can be used frequently and last a very long time.

 

[ShaunRH]

Rocks are your initial problem. Rip the land first, find those rocks. Use a rock rake to find them and pull them up.

Next, you need to determine your plot size, 3-5 acres is the spot where most consider different techniques, so is it 3 or is it 5?

At 3, a good tiller will work. It's slower but does all the steps necessary to be ready for planting.

At 5, you're down to the classic plow/disc/harrow/furrow (optional) methods.

You can also consider 'no till' soil work. For some crops this is a very viable method that has some major advantages to it. It does not work with all crops. One myth in the no-till world is that the soil does not ever compact, it still does. A better definition would be 'till every 5-10 years' kind of farming. Again, very useful for some crops. Look into No-Till farming if you are interested.

That should give you a place to start.

 

[OldeEnglish]

Rocks are your initial problem. Rip the land first, find those rocks. Use a rock rake to find them and pull them up.

Next, you need to determine your plot size, 3-5 acres is the spot where most consider different techniques, so is it 3 or is it 5?

At 3, a good tiller will work. It's slower but does all the steps necessary to be ready for planting.

At 5, you're down to the classic plow/disc/harrow/furrow (optional) methods.

You can also consider 'no till' soil work. For some crops this is a very viable method that has some major advantages to it. It does not work with all crops. One myth in the no-till world is that the soil does not ever compact, it still does. A better definition would be 'till every 5-10 years' kind of farming. Again, very useful for some crops. Look into No-Till farming if you are interested.

That should give you a place to start.

Thanks Shaun, I've never hear of no till farming so I'll do some research on that. In the past year I've been saving money, measuring, and calculating how many acres would need to be planted to pay for the initial cost and to turn a profit. The least I would need to start with is 4 acres and expand from there.

 

[ShaunRH]

Well, the numbers I said are based on what an average person might consider an acceptable amount of time behind the wheel. If you really like the tilled option, you can till 5 acres, it will just take a bit longer than it would after you've already done the old school method once and are just maintaining crops in the field. First time around, it might take about the same time each.

 

[chknscratch]

Thanks Shaun, I've never hear of no till farming so I'll do some research on that. In the past year I've been saving money, measuring, and calculating how many acres would need to be planted to pay for the initial cost and to turn a profit. The least I would need to start with is 4 acres and expand from there.

I have some close friends that are big into no till farming. They don't have a massive garden to the tune of acres, but they have a scale of self sustainability with a pretty good balance of everything. I think think their reasoning is common with that of authors like Steve Solomon, who has written several books on cultivating land. The idea of the tiller consistently hitting a depth of 8" will create a hard bottom, which it sounds like you already have just a few inches deeper. I think it is also supposed to help with keeping the ground properly moisturized. When you turn soil, a lot of good bacteria can die from the heat or light.

I have Gardening When it Counts: Growing Food in Hard Times, which I think had a pretty balanced approach to gardening and harvesting that was easy to pick up on as a first time reader on the topic. He makes it a point to use gardening as a physical activity to help balance a healthy life style. I read up on him further and he has some odd views, but then some of his views totally align with mine.


Another friend is big on aggressive grazing with cattle, I think xx head, one acre, 12-24 hrs and moving between paddocks daily. You never cut your fields and supposedly if done right can make it through a winter without having to buy any hay. When the right ratio is achieved you can be building up top soil very very quickly in just a couple years. I believe this approach also uses techniques of spraying your fields with microbes which you can farm yourself with a starter batch and then just run a water tank with air that they reproduce in and you fill up a sprayer to distribute in your fields.

I am hoping to do something with farming in the next couple years. I don't know which area I will focus on most, but I like a lot of the philosophies of those like Joel Salatin and his Polyface farm approach.

 

[Russell King]

You can probably rent goats and put them onto the property in a dense enough population that they will eat all the vegetation they can reach - usually up to around 6 feet or so for regular size goats.

After they clear it down then it will be easier to maintain. If you reduce the population (so they don't starve), the remaining goats will eventually kill most of the plants on the property.

It won't take very long.

 

[OldeEnglish]

I have some close friends that are big into no till farming. They don't have a massive garden to the tune of acres, but they have a scale of self sustainability with a pretty good balance of everything. I think think their reasoning is common with that of authors like Steve Solomon, who has written several books on cultivating land. The idea of the tiller consistently hitting a depth of 8" will create a hard bottom, which it sounds like you already have just a few inches deeper. I think it is also supposed to help with keeping the ground properly moisturized. When you turn soil, a lot of good bacteria can die from the heat or light.

I have Gardening When it Counts: Growing Food in Hard Times, which I think had a pretty balanced approach to gardening and harvesting that was easy to pick up on as a first time reader on the topic. He makes it a point to use gardening as a physical activity to help balance a healthy life style. I read up on him further and he has some odd views, but then some of his views totally align with mine.


Another friend is big on aggressive grazing with cattle, I think xx head, one acre, 12-24 hrs and moving between paddocks daily. You never cut your fields and supposedly if done right can make it through a winter without having to buy any hay. When the right ratio is achieved you can be building up top soil very very quickly in just a couple years. I believe this approach also uses techniques of spraying your fields with microbes which you can farm yourself with a starter batch and then just run a water tank with air that they reproduce in and you fill up a sprayer to distribute in your fields.

I am hoping to do something with farming in the next couple years. I don't know which area I will focus on most, but I like a lot of the philosophies of those like Joel Salatin and his Polyface farm approach.

Thanks for sharing some ideas for reading material. In my eyes gardening and farming is a science with many different ways to do it, that's my whole reason for starting this discussion. I'm a strong believer in old school methods and love to learn as many of them as I can.

Within both properties rock or stone will be the biggest problem to face. I threw 18" out there because there is a 99% chance I'll hit basketball sized stone at 8" but could be lodged another 10" down which I believe would raise hell on equipment.

Skeets, thanks for sharing your tilling experience with difficult soil, I find that very interesting. A tiller and a single bottom plow is definitally a good option, but tillers are expensive!

I've been watching the Tim and Penut shows on everything attachments and it looks like they have a lot of options. The problem is they are based in NC and they shoot all of their videos working with red clay. I've had the pleasure of working in that stuff and it is in no comparison to the earth we have here in New England. Clay can pack up really hard but I don't see them ripping up any stone or rock. I'd like to see Penut stick a few of their attachments in my ground and see if he can hang on .

 

[OldeEnglish]

You can probably rent goats and put them onto the property in a dense enough population that they will eat all the vegetation they can reach - usually up to around 6 feet or so for regular size goats.

After they clear it down then it will be easier to maintain. If you reduce the population (so they don't starve), the remaining goats will eventually kill most of the plants on the property.

It won't take very long.

That thought has crossed my mind and my wife laughed at me when I mentioned that to her . They would be very handy to clear a hill side that has grown in on one property and the over grown land on the mountain. It's too steep to use a tractor and is dangerous to get out there with a weed wacker. I would love to own a few goats but I know nothing about taking care of them. Honestly I don't know if they would have enough to eat during the winter off of the land and slinging hay around makes my back hurt thinking about it. Not to mention I don't have any barns and they would probably make a tasty meal for the coy dogs. I always see those funny bastards for sale on Craigslist so they must be popular!

 

[skeets]

I'd like to see Penut stick a few of their attachments in my ground and see if he can hang on .
Now that's funny I don't care who you are,,,LMAO

 

[OldeEnglish]

I'd like to see Penut stick a few of their attachments in my ground and see if he can hang on .
Now that's funny I don't care who you are,,,LMAO

Haha that came out all wrong

 

[D2Cat]

OldeEnglish, this is a good idea: " Originally Posted by Russell King View Post
You can probably rent goats and put them onto the property in a dense enough population that they will eat all the vegetation they can reach - usually up to around 6 feet or so for regular size goats."

Around here you don't need to know anything about goats or even purchase them. There are a couple of guys who own hundreds of goats. They contact land owners who have brush, grass and other vegetation. The herd owners bring in the goats, install hot wire if needed, leave one of their dogs to guard. When the vegetation is gone they move them to the next field.

You owe nothing, you do nothing. They get the benefit of the feed, you get the cleared land.

They sell the fat goats and start over!!

Check around you may find such an opportunity in your neck of the woods. Check your local CO-OP, or county extension office and ask.

 

[ShaunRH]

Not sure what would create a 'hard bottom' with tilling unless you are mucking around in clay and pebble rock. Both those conditions can be met with standard tilling and fertilizing processes. Clay soils require a lot of amendments anyway just to get them to full productivity, once done, they just need the standard maintenance cycles. Pebble soils can have the pebbles pulled or pulverized and then you rip to 12" or deeper every decade or so.

Like I said, no till has some big labor advantages, but you end up with some crop issues, at least if you read the farming blogs and forums. Certain crops can thrive better in no till, others can lose productivity efficiencies. To be honest, it's a bit of a holy war topic, with die hard advocates of each type on each side, but it seems to me that there is room in the middle for rational contemplation or even using both techniques depending on the crops you want to raise and rotate.

 

[OldeEnglish]

Not sure what would create a 'hard bottom' with tilling unless you are mucking around in clay and pebble rock. Both those conditions can be met with standard tilling and fertilizing processes. Clay soils require a lot of amendments anyway just to get them to full productivity, once done, they just need the standard maintenance cycles. Pebble soils can have the pebbles pulled or pulverized and then you rip to 12" or deeper every decade or so.

Like I said, no till has some big labor advantages, but you end up with some crop issues, at least if you read the farming blogs and forums. Certain crops can thrive better in no till, others can lose productivity efficiencies. To be honest, it's a bit of a holy war topic, with die hard advocates of each type on each side, but it seems to me that there is room in the middle for rational contemplation or even using both techniques depending on the crops you want to raise and rotate.

Shaun,

This no till method is very interesting. I did a little reading on it to gain some understanding and it is basically how I have grown my berries for years. I dig a hole in the ground, planted the plant, and kept the grass trimmed around them.

I could see this benefiting me in many ways. For instance, my cleared land is on gradual slope (I don't know the exact grade %) that could become a huge problem if there was a hurricane or tropical storm that dumped a lot of rain. We did have Irene hit us with some serious rain a few years ago. It did some major damage around where a brook runs through the lowest tier of the land but the fields on the upper tier were unharmed. Long long ago my area must have gotten a lot of rain when the original farmer used the land. All around the river he protected his river banks by lining them with field stone he pulled from the pastures, and also built stone walls everywhere. Twice in my life I have seen the water get to the top of that and it's still holding today. Those old farmers were amazing how they got things done with absolutely nothing!

Anyways, tilling and planting the fields brought two concerns to me. One being the rain, if a tropical storm hit, say good bye to all of that soil and plants. Water doesn't flood around here, it runs and takes everything with it. My second concern is dust. My parents home is up in the fields where I would plant the berries. Come summertime, the wind will be blowing that dirt everywhere including into the house.

NoTill farming will solve both of those problems.... My berries grow great the way they are, I was just under the assumption that tilling and working soil would increase yield and plant size. I could see how this would benefit an are like yours that has been in drought conditions. Thankfully we rarely have that problem. I may have been looking at this the wrong way for my situation, I will definitally do some reading on it this winter.

 

[OldeEnglish]

OldeEnglish, this is a good idea: " Originally Posted by Russell King View Post
You can probably rent goats and put them onto the property in a dense enough population that they will eat all the vegetation they can reach - usually up to around 6 feet or so for regular size goats."

Around here you don't need to know anything about goats or even purchase them. There are a couple of guys who own hundreds of goats. They contact land owners who have brush, grass and other vegetation. The herd owners bring in the goats, install hot wire if needed, leave one of their dogs to guard. When the vegetation is gone they move them to the next field.

You owe nothing, you do nothing. They get the benefit of the feed, you get the cleared land.

They sell the fat goats and start over!!

Check around you may find such an opportunity in your neck of the woods. Check your local CO-OP, or county extension office and ask.

That is a great idea guys, I did find an outfit not too far away called the Goat Girls!

 

[The_Al]

In MAS as well, and we use a bottom plow to prep, and turn over. Works pretty well.

Hey guys,

Im sorry if I confused everyone. I'm basically trying to start a conversation about what everyone uses to turn grass into plantable soil, and also briar filled land into cultivated soil.

This isn't a project I'm looking to start ASAP I'm just in the planning stage. I'm looking to start a small berry farm consisting of blueberries, raspberries, black raspberries, and blackberries. Why some may ask.... One, to combat rising real estate taxes, and two to create an income 6 years down the road with a pick your own setup and to sell mature plants. I'm new to using a tractor to clear and cultivate soil, but have been growing berries all my life. The plants I do have are planted in an area that seems to stay on the dry side and they are not hilled rows.

I have two properties that this can be done on. Both tend to have a lot of ground water that seems to stay for a very long time until you get a few months of hot and dry weather. If it rains a lot, that dry ground will be right back to spongey ground. Hilling the berry rows would prevent any root rot, but at the same time an irrigation system would have to be installed to insure the plants won't dry out. That's not a huge deal because there is a 100+ year old stone walled well on the property that always has water and recovers quickly even in dry times. With that being said, if I spend thousands of dollars on plants, I don't want to lose them to root rot or any diseases that come from overwatered ground. This property is already cleared and is all lawn.

The second property is my wife's. It also is old farm land that her family used to live off of and has 3 hand dug wells. It hasn't been taken care of in many years and is now mostly grown in with small to large saplings and overgrown briars. I've cleared cleared land like this before by hand when I was a kid (didn't own a tractor at the time) and it took many many years and some seriously hard work. Within my family we have two kubotas now so clearing land by hand is out of the question! I'm looking to see if anyone has cleared land like this into plantable soil. How did you combat the briar roots so that they didn't pop back up? I know round up works well on the roots but I'm not a huge fan of chemicals and poisons. Also if I decided to get it certified as an organic operation they would frown on that. This property has very wet ground, but also has a few wells and a brook that flows through it.

Renting is a great idea, I do have a JD dealership that rents heavy equipment, I'll have to check and see what else they rent. I'm pretty good at finding things used as long as I'm patient, but I wouldn't mind owning equipment that can be used frequently and last a very long time.