Water runs down the mountain behind my house in the Catskills and ends up going through my basement. I want to go up the hill aways and dig some ditches running in a big inverted vee shape to direct the water away. With very rocky clay soil what is the best way to accomplish this? I have an L35 with a back hoe but was wondering if there is a better way since I have to go quite a distance. Would a box blade work or would the rocky soil be too much? I also wonder if a box blade set at a steep angle to the uphill side is also asking for trouble?
Ditch digging?
- Thread starter Telstar2112
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Depending on the site, it usually is most efficient to move the earth from the ditch to the down-hill side so that you do not need to dig so deep. I'd suspect your back-hoe would be the most efficient for this, possibly then back dragging the inboard side of the mound with the front bucket to smooth it up. Cast the boulders to the down-hill side of the mound. They may then tend to buttress it.
If water is flowing, usually best to start at the outlet and work up-hill.
Alternatively a front bucket with teeth would do it, working at 90 degrees to the ditch from up-hill, but getting around boulders may not be so easy. Any trees and roots also not good for this way?
If water is flowing, usually best to start at the outlet and work up-hill.
Alternatively a front bucket with teeth would do it, working at 90 degrees to the ditch from up-hill, but getting around boulders may not be so easy. Any trees and roots also not good for this way?
I just finished ditching about 500 yards with my the backhoe on my 3800. It went very quickly except where i was on the edge of woods and tree roots slowed me down. The backhoe is great for ditching.
I am no drainage expert but one ditch across the bottom of hill might catch everything.
I am no drainage expert but one ditch across the bottom of hill might catch everything.
gpreuss
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I've done a fair amount of ditch digging just as you have described with a rear blade. You need the rotate, tilt and swing functions. Then it is just a matter of pulling it like an offset plow. Quick and easy. The corner of the blade edge gets to do the work.
Do go for heavy duty, however. I have a Servis/Rhino LR with about a 3/8" thick, well rounded moldboard that does a wonderful job. Woods makes a nice heavy duty blade as well. I'm sure there are plenty of others.
Do go for heavy duty, however. I have a Servis/Rhino LR with about a 3/8" thick, well rounded moldboard that does a wonderful job. Woods makes a nice heavy duty blade as well. I'm sure there are plenty of others.
I would consider what is called a French Drain.
Go on the uphill side, trench down about 3' deep forming a "C" around the uphill half of the property. The ditch should taper from the 3' at the high side center to grade at each end. Install a solid drain pipe with holes (like used in a lateral line) in the trench on top of a few inches of rock. Then top it up with washed rock, 2" and larger. (Once again like used in a lateral line) You can bring the rock up to where you can put some old straw or hay on it with a few inches of topsoil if you are going to plant grass.
This will not only collect the surface water, but the water seeping underground. Hopefully you have a good drain around the footing to keep water from entering inside. Biggest problem with most home water problems is lack of grade sloping away from structure, no gutter or neglected gutter.
Go on the uphill side, trench down about 3' deep forming a "C" around the uphill half of the property. The ditch should taper from the 3' at the high side center to grade at each end. Install a solid drain pipe with holes (like used in a lateral line) in the trench on top of a few inches of rock. Then top it up with washed rock, 2" and larger. (Once again like used in a lateral line) You can bring the rock up to where you can put some old straw or hay on it with a few inches of topsoil if you are going to plant grass.
This will not only collect the surface water, but the water seeping underground. Hopefully you have a good drain around the footing to keep water from entering inside. Biggest problem with most home water problems is lack of grade sloping away from structure, no gutter or neglected gutter.
Hmnnn...didn't even consider the bucket but that could work and I wouldn't have to side hill it. Been wanting to get a tooth bar anyway. Guess it depends just how deep I have to go and how rocky. Seems as if I go more than 6" I'm into the rocks. If it works it will go pretty quick. I guess I will need more working room as well, I'll have to scout that out.
And if that fails I just use the backhoe. Just have to restrain myself as I always end up fighting some big rock and end up digging all around it and before I know it I have a huge mess!
This machine does have a heavy duty bolt on edge on the bucket and it seems as if the tooth bars that fit over this are like twice as expensive. Any recommendation for the best place to buy a bolt on tooth bar for this?
Thanks.
And if that fails I just use the backhoe. Just have to restrain myself as I always end up fighting some big rock and end up digging all around it and before I know it I have a huge mess!
This machine does have a heavy duty bolt on edge on the bucket and it seems as if the tooth bars that fit over this are like twice as expensive. Any recommendation for the best place to buy a bolt on tooth bar for this?
Thanks.
Gpreuss, so not a box blade, just a blade that you manually adjust, no TNT needed?. My 3 pt hitch does not push down, so I wonder if it would be able to dig in?
North Idaho Wolfman
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My place is done exactly like you want to do, they used a Bulldozer with a six way blade.
You can do it with your tractor, keep the angle slight like 30 degrees or it will flow too fast and make a bigger mess.
You will want to work with the rock much easier get a set of teeth for your backhoe and your loader!!
You can do it with your tractor, keep the angle slight like 30 degrees or it will flow too fast and make a bigger mess.
You will want to work with the rock much easier get a set of teeth for your backhoe and your loader!!
Since rock is shallow, it appears that Dcat's ideas will not be applied. That is good. I'm what they call a geotechnical engineer. My Master's Degree thesis project at Cornell U. was checking the efficiency of sub-drains under highways. I also checked out and verified the value of the recommendations of the US Army Corps of Engineers's determinations for filters (1938) in sub-drain installations.
Having spent the last 60 years preaching to architects and contractors that if you try to collect seepage or surface water with a so called "French Drain", you have to think about filtering the fines out of the water. If you use clear rock, or even pea gravel as the collecting medium you run the risk of it plugging up with mud. I've seen many a house perimeter footing drain clog up the first year, as well as French drains installed with rock backfill.
OK,, what is the best filter so you don't get plugging? It is the coarse concrete sand used for making concrete, sometimes called torpedo sand. If you are familiar with ASTM Specifications it is Fine Aggregate in standard C-33. Yes it is not as permeable as single size stones, but it usually is more porous than the soil from which the water seeps. How do you keep that sand out of the pipe? Use a pipe with 1/16" slots or very common plastic pipe used for footing drains, or have that pipe wrapped with a filter cloth. If you use solid pipe, drill a few rows of 3/16" diameter holes ON THE BOTTOM. Armco Steel used to sell corrugated steel pipe with those holes specifically for sub-drains under roadways. You might get a few sand grains in the pipe, but the coarser sands then bridge over the holes. Of the many jobs I have called for using this method, never has a single one failed. I still run into building inspectors that need education on this.
Sorry but while the rock idea sounds good, with a significant flow of water those French Drains usually fail in time.
Having spent the last 60 years preaching to architects and contractors that if you try to collect seepage or surface water with a so called "French Drain", you have to think about filtering the fines out of the water. If you use clear rock, or even pea gravel as the collecting medium you run the risk of it plugging up with mud. I've seen many a house perimeter footing drain clog up the first year, as well as French drains installed with rock backfill.
OK,, what is the best filter so you don't get plugging? It is the coarse concrete sand used for making concrete, sometimes called torpedo sand. If you are familiar with ASTM Specifications it is Fine Aggregate in standard C-33. Yes it is not as permeable as single size stones, but it usually is more porous than the soil from which the water seeps. How do you keep that sand out of the pipe? Use a pipe with 1/16" slots or very common plastic pipe used for footing drains, or have that pipe wrapped with a filter cloth. If you use solid pipe, drill a few rows of 3/16" diameter holes ON THE BOTTOM. Armco Steel used to sell corrugated steel pipe with those holes specifically for sub-drains under roadways. You might get a few sand grains in the pipe, but the coarser sands then bridge over the holes. Of the many jobs I have called for using this method, never has a single one failed. I still run into building inspectors that need education on this.
Sorry but while the rock idea sounds good, with a significant flow of water those French Drains usually fail in time.
Did you say the Catkills, forget digging anything in the Catskills unless you have a giant Komatsu excavator. Nothin but rocks and more rocks up in them thar hills. I live there.
I put in 800' of 4" corrugated drain pipe with the filter cloth on it to capture 2 springs that surface in my back pasture, also tied in gutters from a new barn as well. I used 3/4"~1 1/2" drain rock and brought it up to the top of the ditch. This has worked flawlessly for 10 years now, and is gushing out into my pond at this very moment. I used a friends ditch witch and dug the whole 800' easily in a day, threw in the pipe in 100' rolls, back filled the ditch with the rock, took a lot less rock using a ditch witch, highly recommended. I hit rock now and then, most broke to pieces, some I had to beat up with a rock bar, no big.
gpreuss
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You rotate the blade a couple of notches, tilt it a notch or two, and swing it over until it is outside the rear tire. It is like pulling a 400lb triangular hoe! I never had a problem with it not digging in.
The attached picture is swung over and rotated - throw in a notch or two of tilt and you have a ditch..
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Wow. Lots of good information here. I think I'll have to do some test digging to see what I'm up against. I'm really in the western foothills of the Catskills but its still amazing how much rock there is.
If I just dig a ditch, on an angle sloping down the mountain to divert the surface water and leave it open, no sand, stone, or pipe, what will happen? Does it fill in too quick? The ditches along the road seem to carry a lot of water and they have none of this. Although, I guess they do clean them out every few years.
Gpreuss, thanks for the pic. So many implements......so little $.
If I just dig a ditch, on an angle sloping down the mountain to divert the surface water and leave it open, no sand, stone, or pipe, what will happen? Does it fill in too quick? The ditches along the road seem to carry a lot of water and they have none of this. Although, I guess they do clean them out every few years.
Gpreuss, thanks for the pic. So many implements......so little $.
Buckeroo:
Nice post. You were lucky. Chances are the water source was not such that vines were plentiful.
All I say in my preaching is "What is the size of the sediment coming with the water?. Then what is the size of the openings in the rock backfill?." Enuff said.
Here in Wisconsin we have lots of clay, silt and fine sand. Some footing drains with only the sock on the pipe and no special filter medium, the silt builds up over the pipe slots and plugs the pipe openings.
The house I bought 3 years ago has a perimeter drain with a sock over the slotted plastic pipe. It used to carry water after heavy rains (former owner said). I see some fine sand in the sump. Luckily basic soil here is coarse river sand, not much fine sand. However, in case of failure I am prepared to fix the whole thing. I did pretty much fix the main source of surface water infiltration by waterproofing the entire perimeter 10 feet out with a bentonite treatment that I have invented.
Nice post. You were lucky. Chances are the water source was not such that vines were plentiful.
All I say in my preaching is "What is the size of the sediment coming with the water?. Then what is the size of the openings in the rock backfill?." Enuff said.
Here in Wisconsin we have lots of clay, silt and fine sand. Some footing drains with only the sock on the pipe and no special filter medium, the silt builds up over the pipe slots and plugs the pipe openings.
The house I bought 3 years ago has a perimeter drain with a sock over the slotted plastic pipe. It used to carry water after heavy rains (former owner said). I see some fine sand in the sump. Luckily basic soil here is coarse river sand, not much fine sand. However, in case of failure I am prepared to fix the whole thing. I did pretty much fix the main source of surface water infiltration by waterproofing the entire perimeter 10 feet out with a bentonite treatment that I have invented.
I guess I'm lucky also. The perimeter drain around my house was installed in 1976. It's raining as I type and water is flowing as it should!
OK guys, I have tried to avoid this but figured it might make the rock backfill guys happy.
There is another way to do this with open graded rock as the backfill (among others). First you lay a geotechnical filter fabric in the trench and then place your pipe and the rock backfill. It is necessary to have sufficient width fabric that you can then wrap it over the top of the gravel in a double layer so that the entire gravel is encased within the fabric. The better filter fabrics for this are the non-woven types, not the woven types.
Now imagine you are installing this ditch and the fabric and the rock where water is seeping out of the ground and the sides of the trench are caving in. You have to have say 20 feet of trench open before laying the fabric and trying to keep the sides from dropping down before you place a pipe and then gravel. Then a side caves in before you get the gravel there. No way to reach that and remove the cave in without removing the fabric.
With my method you uncurl down into the trench your flexible slotted pipe and immediately dump in some concrete sand on it before the sides cave. Dig a little more trench and let more pipe down in and immediately backfill with the sand. So you then may get cave-in on the sand. No big deal, since the pipe is surrounded with the filter. Even if the pipe is not on a straight line, this will still function.
The use of filter fabric and gravel method is time consuming, more expensive and a bitch to do in some cases. Doesn't work any better than the way I recommend. Do it the easy way.
For more on this discussion go to www.engtips.com and search for French drain. My handle there is Oldestguy, since I am 85 now.
There is another way to do this with open graded rock as the backfill (among others). First you lay a geotechnical filter fabric in the trench and then place your pipe and the rock backfill. It is necessary to have sufficient width fabric that you can then wrap it over the top of the gravel in a double layer so that the entire gravel is encased within the fabric. The better filter fabrics for this are the non-woven types, not the woven types.
Now imagine you are installing this ditch and the fabric and the rock where water is seeping out of the ground and the sides of the trench are caving in. You have to have say 20 feet of trench open before laying the fabric and trying to keep the sides from dropping down before you place a pipe and then gravel. Then a side caves in before you get the gravel there. No way to reach that and remove the cave in without removing the fabric.
With my method you uncurl down into the trench your flexible slotted pipe and immediately dump in some concrete sand on it before the sides cave. Dig a little more trench and let more pipe down in and immediately backfill with the sand. So you then may get cave-in on the sand. No big deal, since the pipe is surrounded with the filter. Even if the pipe is not on a straight line, this will still function.
The use of filter fabric and gravel method is time consuming, more expensive and a bitch to do in some cases. Doesn't work any better than the way I recommend. Do it the easy way.
For more on this discussion go to www.engtips.com and search for French drain. My handle there is Oldestguy, since I am 85 now.
Cerlawson you are a wealth of knowledge and these boys would do good to listen to your advice for sure. Where were you when I did my 800' ? Turned out ok for me, had very little if any sedimentation and lots of fall, about 7~10% which I'm sure helps keep things flowing along. I know what worked for me in my clay type soil may not work for everybody. Cheers amigo !
Telstar2112, I have an L35 with a heavy cutting edge on the FEL bucket.. I purchased a bolt on ToothBar from WR Long and was able to install it with the cutting edge left on. I cut small notches in the back side of the plate of tooth bar so the bolt heads of the bolt on cutting edge would fit in the notches and the tooth bar sits flat on the bucket. Works great and my FEL bucket cutting edge is now supper strong. Also tooth bar is easily on or off. Be sure to give WR Long the exact inside width measurement of your FEL bucket and they will fabricate it to fit properly. Hope this helps. Don....