R420

rentthis

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I have a 2000 R420 loader. The engine will only accelerate to 2000 rpm and kind of slowly. I changed the filters and still have the problem. It's running on all cylinders. I did the injector test. The linkage moves all the way to wide open. The only thing that comes to my mind is a bad turbo charger. I did have to order a fuel stop solenoid but I can't see how that could be involved. Is there a way to test the turbo or do I need to just replace it? Any thoughts as to what could be going on other than the turbo.

Thanks Mike
 

North Idaho Wolfman

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Yea it does sound like the turbo is not spooling up like it should, pull the turbo inlet pipe off and with it not running see if it's spinning freely, if it does then start it and see how it spins, check the dump valve and make sure it's working and not stuck open or closed.
 

lugbolt

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Turbo's fail in different ways, but the advice is correct-remove the inlet pipe from the turbo, engine off of course, and visually look at the compressor wheel. Is it mangled? No? Can you turn it by hand, is it smooth? Does it have a lot of play in it?

USUALLY, when a turbo goes south, it's either lack of oil, nasty air filter causes the compressor blades to be worn away, or foreign object ingestion. And, usually (but not always) they exhibit exhaust smoke when they fail, either smells like fuel (from a compressor wheel failure causing a restriction in the intake tract) or oil smoke-from a turbine side seal failure. Turbo's are pretty simple little devices and as long as everything's ok, they don't just fail for no reason.

Of the few turbo failures I've seen and/or experienced, most of them would still achieve maximum RPM just fine, but would be low on power under a load. Turbo's work off of engine load, as the engine is loaded and the governor pushes the rack to "more fuel", the exhaust temp and volume rise, which turns the turbine wheel/shaft (which the compressor is also attached to) faster, which pumps more air into the engine under pressure. The more it's loaded (more fuel), the more air that's pumped in, until the wastegate (dump valve) is opened.

I am leaning more toward a fuel starvation problem than anything at this point. I would eliminate the possibility of anything else before I started looking at a turbo issue, and if it does end up being the turbo, need to find out why-and fix the underlying problem before another expensive turbo is eaten. I am going through this as we speak on a 2.3 Ford SOHC 4 cylinder, has had 4 turbos on it in the last year....trying to figure out why.
 

boz1989

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On other brands we have had fuel shutoffs partially on, and had one, the inner lining of the hose feeding the pump collaspsed restricting fuel, but not leaking. Currently I have one that likes to plug the line from the tank.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
 

rentthis

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Well, I made sure I have good fuel. I took the inlet hose off. The turbo is spinning freely and with no wobble. The edges on the fan look somewhat distressed on it's edges but not "mangled". I removed the solenoid to inspect it. It moves freely but seems to be awfully hard to pull in and out. I can't imagine the small hose connected to it being able to supply adequate pressure to make it move. I am assuming this solenoid is connected to the "dump valve" which moves freely. I have the wsm and all it shows is the assembly with no breakdown. Considering the price of the assembly, I am considering disassembling the thing to see if there is anything obvious out of site. Out of site like the price of this thing. Are these units repairable or is it necessary to replace the assembly?
 

CobraTom

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I think you guys are looking at this wrong. The Wastegate (dump valve as you referred to it) only opens when the turbo creates a predetermined amount of turbo pressure.
It will NOT affect engine RPM, and if the turbo failed you will have a HEAVY amount of black smoke.

My bet is on the fuel stop solenoid. Whoever ordered it for you ordered the wrong one. There are short stop and long stop units depending on the engine (The length of the rod that actuates the fuel stop). If you have the wrong length, it will push against the fuel rack and make the engine very sluggish and will prevent full RPM.

If you have the right solenoid, you may have accidentally installed it upside down, the hole is off center, the rod will push against the plastic liner its intended to fit into and prevent full fuel/max rpm

Remove the fuel solenoid and run it, I bet that it's your problem.
 
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rentthis

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I have the right solenoid and it's installed right. I tried the wastegate with it disconnected with no change. I'm doing as Lugbolt suggested and looking for a cause other than the turbo. My next step is to have the injectors tested. The machine has 3000+ hours and they have never been cleaned or tested.
 

CobraTom

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I have the right solenoid and it's installed right. I tried the wastegate with it disconnected with no change. I'm doing as Lugbolt suggested and looking for a cause other than the turbo. My next step is to have the injectors tested. The machine has 3000+ hours and they have never been cleaned or tested.
I have worked on dozens of Kubotas, I have 6 in my shop right now. I own a R510 with a rebuild V2003T in it that I built. I highly suggest you look at the fuel solenoid again. Pull it out and run the motor, you are chasing a ghost if that is not first addressed.
 

rentthis

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I have worked on dozens of Kubotas, I have 6 in my shop right now. I own a R510 with a rebuild V2003T in it that I built. I highly suggest you look at the fuel solenoid again. Pull it out and run the motor, you are chasing a ghost if that is not first addressed.
Did as you said. everything is good there
 

lugbolt

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Don't take the turbo apart. Too easy to mess with the balance, and the compressor wheel's nut is usually really tight, requires a special tool to get it off without bending the shaft. The shaft is tiny on these. Shaft speed maximum is up around 200,000 RPM, give or take a little so you sure don't want the balance to be off at all.

The compressor wheel wears. The edges wear down due to air. The air actually has enough friction-at the speeds that the compressor wheel turns-to wear the aluminum. This is normal and is mostly considered in the design of the wheel, so it hurts nothing.

The wastegate actuator ("solenoid") is controlled by intake manifold pressure. With the engine running and 0.0 psi boost, the WGA (wastegate actuator) holds the flapper valve (wastegate) SHUT against the turbine housing. As the engine load and engine speed increase, the turbine wheel is spun faster, which spins the compressor wheel faster, which creates a postive pressure in the intake manifold, which backs up into the compressor housing. Once the pressure gets up to somewhere around 5-7 psi, the WGA's diaphragm has enough force against it-from the little hose that's connected to the compressor housing-to overcome the spring inside the WGA, which then pushes the rod, which in turn moves the wastegate "puck" off of it's seat, which allows exhaust to bypass the turbine wheel and then sort of lets the turbo shaft speed to slow down a little, or equalize. The WGA hose doesn't have to be very big, it doesn't need to flow a lot of air, just enough to send some pressurized air to the WGA and no more. I've tried different sized hoses on my car and it makes no difference until you get really big, which slows the response of the WG, which leads to boost spikes (which can be dangerous on a gas engine). On a diesel, one could disconnect the hose altogether and it won't hurt the engine in the short term. EGT's may get a little high. A lot of Powerstroke diesels didn't even have a wastegate. My dad's doesn't. Mine is a newer PSD (7.3) and it does, and is disconnected until I can pull it off and fix it. The WGA sticks and sometimes sticks open, so the engine makes no power to speak of.

Sounds complicated but it's really simple. Turbo's are cute little devices that do an amazing job. As simple as they are, they need precision when handling. The Kubota stuff is real simple, but when you get into VGT and VNT stuff in trucks/cars, it gets more complex-and more "fun" to work on. And more stuff to potentially go wrong.

What I do if I suspect a turbo, is to do a visual. Is the wheel broken and laying in the housing? If not does it turn with a finger? If yes, put the tube back on it and connect a "tee" to the WGA, start and then load the engine. Does it make boost? Without smoke? If yes, the turbo is generally not the problem. Usually when a turbo dies, the exhaust smoke will be so severe that it'll eat up quarts of oil in minutes, most of the time you'll get liquid oil out of the tailpipe with generally a TON of smoke. Mosquito repellant!

One some engines, a failing turbo sometimes doesn't give any black smoke. Maybe a little but not much. Just had a MX5100 in last week with a failed turbo (air cleaner was washed multiple times by the owner trying to save a dollar, and the element came apart which then damaged the compressor wheel), and with zero boost made at any RPM and load, there was no appreciable exhaust smoke. New turbo makes 6.5 psi max, at full throttle and loading the engine. There was only two complaints with this deal. One, he said he thought the engine was a little weak and two, I heard noise from the turbo-which the owner didn't really complain about. The MX5100 isn't a noisy engine to speak of (unlike an L2501), so the turbo noise was pretty audible over the normal engine noises. On the newer stuff like the L01's, some of the M's, all M5's and M6's and M7's, the only way to properly diagnose a low power issue is with a dyno and diagmaster. That is the ONLY proper way.

I still say the turbo's not the problem, and I still say don't mess with it-especially based on what I'm reading. Keep looking.....
 
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North Idaho Wolfman

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Bottle feed the injection pump, I have seen several motors that have a fuel restriction that causes things to act real wonky. ;)
 

D2Cat

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rentthis, I read the title and though you guys at the rental yard were having a drug fest! I just remember that number meaning something. Like some who use to use CL to find a ride somewhere would say, "420 OK".:D
 

North Idaho Wolfman

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rentthis, I read the title and though you guys at the rental yard were having a drug fest! I just remember that number meaning something. Like some who use to use CL to find a ride somewhere would say, "420 OK".:D
They call it 420 friendly! :D
 

rentthis

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I puled the fuel line at the injector pump and turned on the fuel pump. I got good pressure and flow. I unplugged the fuel pump elec. and bottle fed the injector pump. The bottle produce the same result. That should eliminate a restricted fuel line. Everything being good up to the injector pump and having eliminated the turbo, I'm assuming bad injector pump or injectors. I haven't considered glow plugs but I don't see how that could be the cause. I'm getting what seems to be adequate fuel and pressure at the injectors so I think my next project should be injectors. Does anyone know of any other low hanging fruit. D2cat, maybe I need better drugs.
 

North Idaho Wolfman

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Order of most likely to least:
Injectors
Valve adjustments (loose valves)
Injection pump
 

CobraTom

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I puled the fuel line at the injector pump and turned on the fuel pump. I got good pressure and flow. I unplugged the fuel pump elec. and bottle fed the injector pump. The bottle produce the same result. That should eliminate a restricted fuel line. Everything being good up to the injector pump and having eliminated the turbo, I'm assuming bad injector pump or injectors. I haven't considered glow plugs but I don't see how that could be the cause. I'm getting what seems to be adequate fuel and pressure at the injectors so I think my next project should be injectors. Does anyone know of any other low hanging fruit. D2cat, maybe I need better drugs.
Take off the side plate on the injection pump and see if the fuel rack has full movement. I have seen governor springs come off before.
 

CobraTom

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I just had a moment with my R510 and a hard start.
Turned out I accidentally bumped the 3rd function lever on the hydraulics that is closed off and the pump was deadheading. The motor was very sluggish and had a really hard time starting.

Have you considered the issue to be a hydraulics issue that is putting strain on the motor vs an issue with the motor itself?
 

RCW

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I had to Google the "420" thing....apparently I don't get out much....:eek:

Now I'm up to speed!:D

Mike - I'm no help for your loader, but best wishes for a resolution!