PTO driven generator

[300zx]

OK, two days without power here in Virginia's 100 degree weather and 5 more days to go before they are predicting it will be back on, has me thinking about a generator. I don't need another engine that only runs very little, so I am thinking a PTO driven generator for the back of my B7100 would be the right solution. Something like this 7.2 KW 14hp unit at Northern.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200308467_200308467

I have never had a generator, so what do I need to know as I go looking for solutions? Will the 1979 B7100 with 1200 hours handle 25 to 100 hours of continuous operation? I am not looking for a solution for the current outage, I am just thinking I should look ahead.

John in Va

 

[Eric McCarthy]

Its a topic thats floated around here before. I look at it as do you really want to rack up extra wear and tear on your tractor trying to power a little bit of lights, fans and maybe the fridge. And like you said anywhere from 25 to 100 hours of operation on your tractor just sitting there. Look at the price of gas versus diesel right now too. Our 7500 watt generator uses about 5 gallons of gas every 8 hours or so. my B6100 gets about 8 hours of run time on 5 gallons of diesel and down my way in Virginia diesel is about 3.65 a gallon and gas is down to 3.15

 

[Eric McCarthy]

And the PTO generator seems rather expensive too. 899 for just the generator, another 299 for the PTO shaft and your now up to 1198. Plus ad in shipping unless theres a Nothern Tool in your area. Also you'll need something to mount the generator too, whatever means that might be.

 

[hodge]

And the PTO generator seems rather expensive too. 899 for just the generator, another 299 for the PTO shaft and your now up to 1198. Plus ad in shipping unless theres a Nothern Tool in your area. Also you'll need something to mount the generator too, whatever means that might be.

There is a Northern Tool near him- I like to go there and window shop from time to time...

 

[Eric McCarthy]

A friend of mine and I were just chatting on this subject and he pointed out to me he knows several people who have both a pto generator and a gas powered one and it sounds like they can never find the tractor when they need it for power to their home. Yeah I can see trying to find the tractor in the dark and attempting to hook up the pto generator being a huge pain in the ass. More then likely you'll keep a gas powered generator in your shed/garage thats usually close by to the house and is easily found with a flash light. I know I've woken up several times in the middle of the night to hook up a generator to keep the food in the fridge from going bad.

 

[300zx]

Eric, Hodge is right, we do have a Northern in Lynchburg. I was in there Sunday morning after church. They said they had a trailer load of 92 generators come in the night before and sold them out in an hour that morning. There are also people hauling them in from North Carolina and selling them in the parking lots.

You have given me some info to think about. It is interesting that you can buy gas powered self contained units for about $100/Kw. That does make the Northern pto unit a little pricey at $160/Kw. I have no idea how to evaluate the quality of the generator. But, there is value to me in not having anything else to store. My neighbor and I laugh about the fact that each of us is willing to buy new "toys" to use, if the other will store it. So a smaller package is of value to me.

Hodge, I headed for Staunton today to cool off with the Grandchildren. I will wave as I go by. LOL!

John

 

[hodge]

Eric, Hodge is right, we do have a Northern in Lynchburg. I was in there Sunday morning after church. They said they had a trailer load of 92 generators come in the night before and sold them out in an hour that morning. There are also people hauling them in from North Carolina and selling them in the parking lots.

You have given me some info to think about. It is interesting that you can buy gas powered self contained units for about $100/Kw. That does make the Northern pto unit a little pricey at $160/Kw. I have no idea how to evaluate the quality of the generator. But, there is value to me in not having anything else to store. My neighbor and I laugh about the fact that each of us is willing to buy new "toys" to use, if the other will store it. So a smaller package is of value to me.

Hodge, I headed for Staunton today to cool off with the Grandchildren. I will wave as I go by. LOL!

John

Which way are you coming? If it is 29/151/664, past Wintergreen, I can see you wave.
Northstar seems to be good equipment. I would trust it more than Northern Industrial.
There are good and bad with both- personally, I keep it simple, since this doesn't happen very often. I have a 5000 watt generator and a 1000 watt Honda. The little Honda will run the fridge, and do it for about 8 hours on a gallon of fuel. We switch things around as we have needs, so I doubt that I would spring for a bigger generator, to run more things. To me, it is easier to simplify than to go bigger.

 

[Stubbyie]

Find other threads in OTT on same subject.

There have been extensive discussions.

Considerations, in brief (search threads for add'l):

1. Need tractor for other than genset (snow, debris, cross-country to town for groceries when roads otherwise blocked) (side issue: 100-hrs on a Kubota not significant over life of tractor).

2. Fuel managment-a. If the grid is down where is your fuel coming from? How will you store enough? What is enough? Stagnation, fire safety are issues. Store a drum of diesel in your garage and how transfer (really?)?

3. Fuel management-b. Consider natural gas or propane for...

4. If truly planning ahead you need a pad-mount whole-house, not a PTO setup. Cost not that dramatically different for the benefit derived.

5. Forget the dinky 6-circuit transfer switch; go only with whole-house transfer switch rated 200-amps minimum--might go with 100-amp aux circuit while grid uses 200-amp contacts (similar costs, can upgrade genset in future).

6. Maintenance of another engine not that big a deal. With natgas change oil once a year and no worry about plugs. Run it 15-min a week, switch off-grid twice a year to load test.

7. Pad mount aux genset increases value of property and enhances peace of mind. No hookup in dark storm or dependence on YOUR presence, just flip switch. What happens when spouse/kid handles non-hardwired cable from running PTO genset plugging into house feed--after they get the tiller/bushhog off and the PTO shaft connected?

We've done more than twenty of these things. Customers always like the padmounts better than PTO---around here PTO units have been relegated to chicken houses not homes.

Alternative for "home"-type padmount aux genset: Lincoln or Miller 10-12KW aux output welding genset converted or OEM to propane. No fuel management issues (fill a 100-250-gal tank once and keep it for standby). Test run and use in field on 20-lb bbq bottle.

Lastly based on extensive experience: if you need aux power often enough to warrant a genset you do NOT need a PTO type for home use.

Biggest single issue to consider is fuel management; convenience close behind.

If you follow through please advise your decision process for others to learn.

 

[300zx]

Stubbyie, all are really good points to be considered. After studying this for a while this morning, looking at the load I would want to carry and the fact that this is the only major outage (7 days with out power) we have had in the last 23 years, I think I will pass. If there is another event, we will sacrifice the food in the freezer and frig and leave the effected area until power returns. Winters aren't as bad since power doesn't affect our water and we use non-vented gas logs on two levels of our house.

Thanks for all of the input,
John

 

[Kingcreek]

I bought a 5500kw Honda commercial generator 16 years ago and it still runs great. I haven't needed it often but when I needed it, I really needed it bad, and it worked. Most of our outages are winter weather related. We live rural and like our heat and well water as much as our lights.
I'll probably upgrade to a pad mount automatic unit one of these days.
I've never considered a PTO unit for the reasons mentioned above.

 

[300zx]

Which way are you coming? If it is 29/151/664, past Wintergreen, I can see you wave.
Northstar seems to be good equipment. I would trust it more than Northern Industrial.
There are good and bad with both- personally, I keep it simple, since this doesn't happen very often. I have a 5000 watt generator and a 1000 watt Honda. The little Honda will run the fridge, and do it for about 8 hours on a gallon of fuel. We switch things around as we have needs, so I doubt that I would spring for a bigger generator, to run more things. To me, it is easier to simplify than to go bigger.

I came up 29/6/151/250/64, so you may not have seen me wave!

John

 

[dmanlyr]

I did look at a PTO generator at first, but I only had a BX25 at the time, with what, 17.7 PTO horsepower, barely enough to run much without a lot of work "managing" the "load". To me, to do anything, including the running the pump house would take at least 25 PTO hp. Then you are still limited to what you can run at any one time.

I went for a 50kw diesel super silent enclosed generator myself. You can easily talk next to the thing running loaded. No loud wining portable generators to disturb the sleep Nor for that matter, a loud tractor running at higher rpm to maintain that 540 rpm PTO speed. Hardwired thru a automatic transfer switch. Runs the whole house including the electic heat, dryer and range all on at once.

As to fuel, that is the easy one. 2 or 3 IBX totes, 275 gallon which are set up to be used with pallet forks, etc. These are DOT legal as well.

A 120v transfer pump, 25' self retracting hose reel.

A cargo type trailer (does not have to have enough capacity to carry the weight legaly on the public road as it never goes down the public road) I bought a single axle one myself, no windows, so no light to make slime grow in the fuel tanks. This also allows me to store the fuel away from the house, but pull the trailer over when fuel is needed.

I have also lined the lower part of the trailer, and part way up the walls with double thick one piece industrial grade plastic tarp which I fold out to fuel, and fold in to store, this provides a secondary containment system of sorts.

I can also fuel the tractor and other equipment easily by using a ext cord over to the trailer.

If I buy in 500 gallon batches, fuel is delivered and relativly cheap in comparison to pump bought fuel. But is any fuel really cheap?!? I use the off road dyed, low sulpher fuel.

This is what works for me, overkill for many, but when the power goes out, life goes on as usual with only the need to feed the generator occasionaly (averages about 1 gallon a hour) The other benifit is that in wind storms when the power goes on and off, I just can disconnect from the grid to keep power surges and spikes down to a minimum until the line power stabilizes.

David

 

[300zx]

David, sounds like a well thought out solution. How much would you estimate you have invested?

John

 

[dmanlyr]

David, sounds like a well thought out solution. How much would you estimate you have invested?

John

A bunch. Like i said, probably overkill for most, 17k. I bought everything new.

I also did not want my better half having to be a electrical engineering master without a clue when I was gone. A lot of people have other skills and just think that about all there is to power is to flip a switch.

She just did not get the idea that you only have so much wattage available and when you exceed that, the system shuts down.... so I bought a system big enough to handle everything at once, plus some so the system was not taxed out / running full out all the time, this can / will increase the generator portion of the power plant somewhat as less heat build up is occuring.

A load shedding system would have been a option, BUT they are generaly limted to a few circuits, and I wanted to be able to power every circuit as needed.

That does not include the bulk fuel stuff, as I would have bought it all for a fuel system for my equipment. As I live in a "rural" sensitive area, it is almost impossible to get a UST permit, so the IBX totes were a legal option and as a side benifit, any water collecting on the bottom won't cause rust thru.

David

 

[Stubbyie]

I really like David's ideas. A specific approach I had not considered was using the DOT totes inside an enclosed trailer.

The only thing I'd suggest would be to add a fuel admixture (biocide, anti-gelling, cetane enhancement) when filling the totes. Note: some diesel biologicals do not require light as fuel can exhibit bio growth in closed steel tanks depending on source contamination. May not be needed in your area but I err toward caution involving fuels for which I really desire high availability.

Keep a complete set of expendables on hand: filters, belts, oil, even antifreeze to refill after replacing hose.

Our primary genset is propane (1,250-gals valved-off standby) and we run a fuel trailer for gasoline and diesel for other equipment. Both 150-gal pressure vessels have fuels stored under a 15-psig propane blanket for ease of dispensing.

For the trailer setup, with careful shopping and patience I doubt we've got $200 in everyting except the trailer bought used.

I've never liked the commonly-supplied limited-circuit cheap transfer switches and always use whole-house switches on our installs. Assume later uses for a room change and those circuits are no longer handy. Now you've got multiple extension cords running all over getting those delivered outlets to where they're now needed. Trip hazards, forgetting to plug in the freezer after using the microwave, old folks stumble and get wrapped up and fall. Not worth it.

Even for a smaller genset, use a whole-house transfer switch and treach load management to the occupants. After a couple breaker trips or auto-shut-downs they tend to remember.

In our area there have been two suspected / known instances where storm damage resulted in the genset auto-starting, shorting / overheating inside the structure without tripping, and burning the place down. During storm season we keep ours set to 'manual'; rest of year it 'auto' starts and tests 15-min each week. I like the manual control.

If you shop and pay attention you can find oversize underpriced gensets on the market all the time. Look for grocery and convenience stores that close. Ask around and you'll find a lot of closing businesses have a genset in the back or basement. Some are almost forgotten but can be made runnable pretty easily. We've picked up several up to 90-KW for 10% of new replacement--or less; one for hauling it off if we'd cap the natgas supply lines to the building.

We're off-grid multiple times per year due to fires, ice- and wind-storms, vehicle hits, just about anything that can happen. Longest thus far 17-days, next was 14-days. Rural life literally at the end of the co-op line.

Our primary is an older 'prime-rated' Onan 45-KW 3-ph powered by a Ford 300-ci industrial 6-cyl engine on propane. 3-ph powers shop machine tools and has a single-phase 220-vac hardwired off two terminals (and neutral and ground) for the house through whole-house auto-control transfer switch. Yields something like 30-KW for domestic use and runs absolutely everything in what used to be total electric home. We'got enough spare power we put in a couple campsite-type 50-amp pedestals for neighbors to plug in when they bring their 5th wheels over during outages.

Sidenote: for standby to standby we use direct-vent propane heaters with sealed combustion chambers with concentric intake-exhaust vents to outside. Highly recommend same for interior carbon monoxide safety. Got in a bind once and used propane infrared heaters to bring house up from freezing. Spouse lit candle and put on floor: flame went out in 15-min. Tried again and continued experimenting with same result. We finally got where we could detect the boundary layer of monoxide above floor. Vented house fast. Shortly thereafter installed direct vent heaters.

Greatly interested in other and alternative views and experiences.

Stay safe.