Problems with Grapple

[Metalworx]

Hi guys! First time caller, long time listener...

...So I bought a brand new L2501, along with a brush cutter, grapple bucket and box blade.
I already had to send the brush cutter back, as it puked out all its oil before I ever even used it.
I've used the grapple most of all, and the tractor now has about 25 hours on it. I had parked it in my garage after using the grapple, and didn't get a chance to use the machine for about 2 weeks.
The other day I wanted to move it out of the way, but the battery was dead, which seemed odd for it having been just a couple weeks sitting. I charged the battery, then wanted to use the tractor and grapple today, and when I tried to open the grapple jaws, they would not. Everything on the tractor seem to work okay. Upon inspection, I found that the grapple control is direct wired to the battery with an in-line fuse. I checked the fuse and it was blown.
I changed the fuse and started up. The grapple wouldn't open still, but now the loader will barely function. I pulled the fuse to look at the connection, and even with the tractor off, when the fuse makes contact it makes a spark.
I believe that the "close" function is stuck that way, which, since it is hard wired to the battery, might be the cause of the dead battery. Is there a solenoid somewhere that works the open/close function of the grapple?
I read the manual for the tractor, and didn't get any literature on the 3rd function valve, but I'm not really sure where to start.
I should mention that all attachments and 3rd function are LandPride, and when in-line fuse is pulled out, the tractor functions perfectly.

 

[nick2010tundra]

I think I woul take it to the dealer. I'd also want them to wire it properly with a relay activated off the key, so the solenoid is not always hot ( that isn't good). Maybe that's the way landpride installs it, but to me that's half $$$. good luck

 

[Metalworx]

hmm... does anyone else have a land pride grapple that had the third valve installed at the dealership? I'm curious as to whether what they did was common practice or just the ones that installed everything at my dealership.

 

[Kennyd4110]

Sounds like the 3rd function is wired wrong, and possibly the switch is defective too.

The switch had 3 positions: ON-OFF-ON. When it is centered in the OFF position no power should be drawn, so either the switch is stuck or they hacked up the wiring to it.

 

[wgator]

Sounds like your LP third function valve is wired per the LP install instructions I have as a pdf (won't let me attach). The install instructions may help you be able to troubleshoot it. Not enough posts to allow link so you maybe be able to copy and paste into your browser after replacing (dot) with a period for this to get it (hopefully will work for you): www(dot)landpride.com/ari/attach/lp/public/manuals/380-153m.pdf

 

[maclean]

Sounds like the micro switch is broken or dirty...mine gets mud in it and goes haywire.

Mine was wired from the dealer without a relay straight to the battery with a fuse.

You could test the switch...the wires should be spliced next to the hydraulic block and solinoid...use a multimeter to check continuity.

Use some electronic cleaner to flush the switch.

I'm also concerned because you can't just buy the switch...you have to purchase the whole knob assembly for $160 or so...need to figure out which $3 switch was used.

- Mac

 

[GSPKurt]

Third Function Valve Instructions

 

[markbxr400]

I found mine would automatically operate when the switch got wet (I dropped my bucket while carrying it with the grapple to load the tractor on my trailer). BUT, it only did it when the keyswitch was on. Something must be different between our setups.

 

[Hydro556]

I was unimpressed with the dealer wiring of my LP 3rd function on my L2501 as well. Already rewired it with proper waterproof butt connectors.

Also purchased a Blue Sea Systems 6 block marine fuse panel to install along with front and rear LED cubes once I get time.

When I do, I'm going to wire in the LP 3rd function as well. Easy access for everything and I'll know its properly wired.

Love these marine fuse panels. Have the same on our Mule Pro and in my FJ.

Honestly was pretty disappointed with the "factory" 3rd function wiring my dealer did. Only thing they disappointed on though.

 

[Metalworx]

I still haven't gotten it fixed, as we have had biblical flooding for over a week now. I'm hoping today to check for power at the switch to see if the problem lies there, or if it's at the 3rd function valve. I had already hosed the switches with electrical cleaner to no avail.
I have no idea what kind of warranty Land Pride has on their attachments, but once I take this to the dealer to fix it, I'm not paying a dime to get this issue resolved. I've already sent the brush cutter in to have a catastrophic leak fixed, and now this issue, and all under 30 hours since new.

 

[100 td]

It appears the push buttons are taking the solenoid load current, and may be wired direct to battery. If it were mine, I would power it via an IGN switched relay, as well as having relays controlling the solenoids so the stalk switches only see the relay coil current, not the solenoid current. YMMV

 

[edritchey]

Actually it sounds like it was installed per the manufacturers (LandPride's) installation instructions. Can they be wired differently to make a better cleaner job sure but then you're going to have to do it yourself because the dealer is going to follow the instructions that come with the device.

That said your's has a problem and will need to be looked at by someone with some basic trouble shooting skills. The problem could be in one of the switches in the handle mounted to the joystick or maybe in one of the solenoids on the valve body or might be a short to ground on the hot wire running from the battery to it. I'd take it back like you were talking about and let the dealer correct it if it's new and they installed it they should be happy to fix the problem for you.

Crap happens and it seems like you are having more than your fair share of problems with your new equipment. Once all the bugs are worked out you will fall in love with your new toys.

EDR

 

[Maxl]

The 3rd function valve on my L2501 was wired by the dealer and is direct to the battery also
Sounds like one of the switches is stuck on.

 

[lugbolt]

Land pride's instructions for installing the kit are a joke. But they do tell you to hook the wires directly to the battery. The solenoids don't draw a lot of power anyway so it doesn't need relays, and relays would likely add some delay to the operations of the 3rd function as well as adding complexity and more wiring. Over-complicating a simple DC electric circuit can be more problematic than what we already have.

You need to measure current to the solenoids. Start there. With the switches not pressed, you should have zero current to the solenoids. If you have any, one or both switches is failing, and that means take it back to the dealer and ask them to replace. They'll probably replace the entire handle assembly.

Secondly. The handle assembly with switches is just set-screwed to the original loader control joystick. If the installer isn't really careful, it's super easy to tighten the set screw down against the wires, and if this happens, all sorts of weird stuff happens. Sometimes they do it and realize what they've done, remove set screw, re-route the wires, and then start over--but failed to realize that the wires were compromised and need at least inspection. I've been guilty of this due to time constraints....and trust me...the seemingly simple task becomes very complicated when a customer or salesman standing there saying "how much longer?".....


It's possible that the valve is "stuck" but that would fall into the rare category. If it were stuck, you'd have continual hydraulic flow to the grapple, normally you'd see the hose(s) jump just immediately after starting the engine. It's a simple valve. About the only thing that could go wrong is that the spring could be broken; if that's happened, dealer time. Might not be what you wanted to hear, but I'm not a politician thus I'm not in the business of telling people what they want to hear.

Could it be possible that the hoses have been routed/installed improperly at some point? I say this because if the power beyond hose and the return hose are swapped, the 3ph won't work, and if the PBY and pump hoses are swapped, it'll work weird. Also if there's any other hydraulic item that's dead-headed anywhere in the system, it'll also cause problems but usually results in the FEL "locking up".

 

[Dizzyman17]

This

Land pride's instructions for installing the kit are a joke. But they do tell you to hook the wires directly to the battery. The solenoids don't draw a lot of power anyway so it doesn't need relays, and relays would likely add some delay to the operations of the 3rd function as well as adding complexity and more wiring. Over-complicating a simple DC electric circuit can be more problematic than what we already have.

You need to measure current to the solenoids. Start there. With the switches not pressed, you should have zero current to the solenoids. If you have any, one or both switches is failing, and that means take it back to the dealer and ask them to replace. They'll probably replace the entire handle assembly.

Secondly. The handle assembly with switches is just set-screwed to the original loader control joystick. If the installer isn't really careful, it's super easy to tighten the set screw down against the wires, and if this happens, all sorts of weird stuff happens. Sometimes they do it and realize what they've done, remove set screw, re-route the wires, and then start over--but failed to realize that the wires were compromised and need at least inspection. I've been guilty of this due to time constraints....and trust me...the seemingly simple task becomes very complicated when a customer or salesman standing there saying "how much longer?".....


It's possible that the valve is "stuck" but that would fall into the rare category. If it were stuck, you'd have continual hydraulic flow to the grapple, normally you'd see the hose(s) jump just immediately after starting the engine. It's a simple valve. About the only thing that could go wrong is that the spring could be broken; if that's happened, dealer time. Might not be what you wanted to hear, but I'm not a politician thus I'm not in the business of telling people what they want to hear.

Could it be possible that the hoses have been routed/installed improperly at some point? I say this because if the power beyond hose and the return hose are swapped, the 3ph won't work, and if the PBY and pump hoses are swapped, it'll work weird. Also if there's any other hydraulic item that's dead-headed anywhere in the system, it'll also cause problems but usually results in the FEL "locking up".

I did a self-install and had the exact problem you mention with the set screw. Not really happy with the design of this, but I own the blame. I just like to learn how things I own work so I can avoid the hour to and from my dealer and the wait time to get fixed. The grapple did work for a while, until, it finally shorted, then after discovering and repairing the wire in the handle, it still won't work. We have looked at all connections and gone back over the instructions and we are all good there, but still won't work. I am now worried that we may have burned out the solenoid. We are troubleshooting it all with a multi-meter and maybe we are missing something, but is there any way to test the solenoid unit itself? Are there any schematics of the wiring of the solenoid? I've found only schematics of the hydraulic portion.

 

[Dizzyman17]

Also curious if you can buy just the electrical portion of the solenoid unit

 

[bird dogger]

This

I did a self-install and had the exact problem you mention with the set screw. Not really happy with the design of this, but I own the blame. I just like to learn how things I own work so I can avoid the hour to and from my dealer and the wait time to get fixed. The grapple did work for a while, until, it finally shorted, then after discovering and repairing the wire in the handle, it still won't work. We have looked at all connections and gone back over the instructions and we are all good there, but still won't work. I am now worried that we may have burned out the solenoid. We are troubleshooting it all with a multi-meter and maybe we are missing something, but is there any way to test the solenoid unit itself? Are there any schematics of the wiring of the solenoid? I've found only schematics of the hydraulic portion.

Hi Dizzyman17. Here's a link to my install of the Summit 3rd function kit on my B2650. I'm guessing the valve is the same or very similar to yours: https://www.orangetractortalks.com/...it-install-on-kubota-b2650.44616/#post-385832

Regarding testing: With the tractor not running but the 3rd function system energized you should be able to both hear and feel the solenoids operate when the respective "open" & "close" buttons are pressed on your joystick controller. An extra set of hands to either press the buttons or have placed on the valve solenoids themselves would help. If you look at some of my pics you'll see there's also a small internal "indicator light" in each control relay mounted to the valve body. They indicate when power is applied to that relay but maybe not necessarily whether the relay is actually operating the solenoid valve itself. But for that you should definitely be able to feel a distinct "clunk" when holding your hand on the valve body near that relay. At least on mine it does.

It sounds like you're somewhat comfortable with using a multi meter and trouble shooting. If you still don't feel like you're getting power to those relays or they're not operating you might be able to remove the electrical connector to each relay and then alternately jumper 12 VDC directly into each relay to see if they'll operate the solenoid valves. You might also first try swapping the relays positions with each other to see if one works while the other doesn't. It's also stated that there shouldn't be any metal touching the ends of the valve body as that will interfere with the relays ability to operate the solenoid valve correctly.

Hope this might help a little with your trouble shooting. Regards, David

 

[Dizzyman17]

Hi Dizzyman17. Here's a link to my install of the Summit 3rd function kit on my B2650. I'm guessing the valve is the same or very similar to yours: https://www.orangetractortalks.com/...it-install-on-kubota-b2650.44616/#post-385832

Regarding testing: With the tractor not running but the 3rd function system energized you should be able to both hear and feel the solenoids operate when the respective "open" & "close" buttons are pressed on your joystick controller. An extra set of hands to either press the buttons or have placed on the valve solenoids themselves would help. If you look at some of my pics you'll see there's also a small internal "indicator light" in each control relay mounted to the valve body. They indicate when power is applied to that relay but maybe not necessarily whether the relay is actually operating the solenoid valve itself. But for that you should definitely be able to feel a distinct "clunk" when holding your hand on the valve body near that relay. At least on mine it does.

It sounds like you're somewhat comfortable with using a multi meter and trouble shooting. If you still don't feel like you're getting power to those relays or they're not operating you might be able to remove the electrical connector to each relay and then alternately jumper 12 VDC directly into each relay to see if they'll operate the solenoid valves. You might also first try swapping the relays positions with each other to see if one works while the other doesn't. It's also stated that there shouldn't be any metal touching the ends of the valve body as that will interfere with the relays ability to operate the solenoid valve correctly.

Hope this might help a little with your trouble shooting. Regards, David

awesome stuff. had a good chat with a great guy at Northman (mfg of the solenoid unit) today too. Learned a lot. Fascinating. I'll report back.

So far, what I've determined is that the design of the kit could use some significant improvement, particularly the button/handle piece. To much opportunity to cause a fail in the kit. I suspect they'd rather you just bring these in to the dealer. But a few tweaks could make this much better.

 

[Dizzyman17]

awesome stuff. had a good chat with a great guy at Northman (mfg of the solenoid unit) today too. Learned a lot. Fascinating. I'll report back.

So far, what I've determined is that the design of the kit could use some significant improvement, particularly the button/handle piece. To much opportunity to cause a fail in the kit. I suspect they'd rather you just bring these in to the dealer. But a few tweaks could make this much better.

I found where the short occurred. Appreciate all the help. NEW ISSUE related to this install, for some reason, the loader up/down function now has limited functionality. I suspect there may be air in the hydraulic line, but my dealer told me the tractor bleeds itself. Curious if anyone knows what’s happening or how to address.

 

[Kennyd4110]

The systems on these machines are self-purging, you just need to operate the functions several times. I would unhook the loader connections and reconnect them.