Mid mount vs rear PTO for Blower - which is stronger?

laxin213

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I've heard that the front blower will not toss snow as far as the rear blower because the shaft/ linkage is shorter and therefore has more torque/power on the rear PTO. The mid mount will have a longer shaft connecting to front blower.

This is a chart from my B2650 manual. It lists the front PTO as higher rpm than the rear PTO, but does the rear PTO make more torque which isn't on this table? Why if all else is equal is a rear blower able to toss snow farther than a front blower - or is this not true?





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North Idaho Wolfman

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I've never heard that a front mounted blower can't throw snow as far as a rear? :confused:

Torque will be just about equal on both PTO shafts when they get to there final end point. ;)
 

Dave_eng

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Re: Mid mount vs rear PTO for lower - which is stronger?

It is simple.
The power and torque all come from the engine. No where else.
Think of driving a standard transmission car. Through the use of gears, the horse power available in first gear is the same as forth or fifth gear.

It is because, in the simplest of terms, horsepower is just engine torque x rpm.

In first gear, the torque to the driving wheels is high but the rpm of the driving axles is low.
In 5th gear the torque to the wheels is low and the rpm to the axles is high.

The engine power output is still the same.

The blower designed for the mid 2500 rpm pto will have a gear box designed to lower the blower fan rpm so it does not self destruct from rotating too fast.

The blower designed for the rear pto will typically run the fan of the blower at the same speed as the pto i.e. 540 rpm.


Some owners of multi-speed rear pto's run at an intermediate speed of 760 rpm and get away with it.

They do this because their blower is not throwing the snow as far as they would like and using the intermediate speed accomplishes this but the engine power and the power at the blower for doing the overall snow removal task is not increased. They have to engage the snow drifts more slowly to get the fan to throw further.

When you run at a higher than 540 rpm on a blower which was designed for 540, you are using up the safety factors the engineer provided in the design. Today's engineering involves a lot of computer modelling so the safety factors are smaller because the engineer is more confident in the design.

When you buy a 3/4" yellow poly rope the info label says "safe working load" is 880 lbs. On another manufacturer's rope, the label will say "ultimate tensile strength" 8,800 lbs. One company is acknowledging a 10:1 safety factor. The other is making you think their product is stronger. It is the same rope described two different ways.

Please ask more questions if this is not clear to you.

Dave M7040
 

NoJacketRequired

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Re: Mid mount vs rear PTO for lower - which is stronger?

Ummm, hate to break it to you, but I think you've been fed a bit of an old wive's tale. Torque is a function of engine power plus drive line speed reduction ratios. Both mid and rear PTO are driven by the same engine, so same torque is applied to them. The rear PTO is designed to operate at 540 RPM, so the speed reduction is done inside the transmission case of the tractor. The mid PTO spins at engine RPM. Front-mount blowers contain the speed reduction hardware necessary to drop that 2500 RPM from the tractor down to 540 RPM for the snow blower's impeller.

Net of some minor considerations like efficiency of the actual driveline (how much power is lost per U-joint x how many U-joints, and similar small factors) the mid and rear PTO's conduct the same amount of power to the implement.

Now let's get down to brass tacks. And some real-world examples. I have a B7510 HSD with a Kubota B2782B front-mount 63" blower. That's 21 engine HP, or 16 HP estimated at the PTO. I also have a B7200 that's spec'd at 17 engine HP and 14 PTO HP. It's turning a 51" Meteor rear-mount snowblower.

Yes, the tractor horsepower ratings are different but there's a way to mathematically compare the differences in power and snowblower width. If you take PTO HP and divide by inches of snowblower width, you'll get a HP per inch rating. The B7510/ 63" blower combination gives us 0.254 hp/inch. The B7200 / 51" blower gives us 0.275 hp/inch. Yup, the smaller tractor SHOULD have a power advantage over the bigger tractor. This would make one believe the smaller tractor should throw the snow further. And your original statement concluded that rear-mount blowers throw further than front mount blowers, so, since the smaller tractor has higher hp/inch AND has a rear-mount blower, it should throw the snow further, right?

Not so fast!

Snowblower mechanical design as a LOT do do with how well that engine horsepower is pot to work moving snow. Just ask anybody who owns an older blower with a 3-blade impeller. They'll tell you they just don't work well at all in wet snow. Likewise, ask anybody who has added rubber strips to the tips of the impeller blades how much of a performance difference they saw when they tightened up the fit of the impeller to the housing. These factors can have a huge impact on how far a blower tosses the snow. How far that snow flies is more a factor of VELOCITY as it exits the chute than it is a factor of raw horsepower or to which end of the tractor the blower is attached.

Now, for some real-world experience. In the past two weeks we've had a fair amount of snow fall here - approaching two feet for us. I've had the pleasure of operating both tractors and blowers in the same snow. The B7200 / 51" rear mount blower is a better match between blower and tractor than the B7510 / 63" front mount blower. I say this simply because the smaller tractor/blower combination seems to have more power reserve. This is borne out in our calculations of HP/inch.

BUT... the rear-mount blower on the B7200, despite having more HP/inch, forms a snow windrow at about 35' from the cut, while the front-mount blower on the B7510 forms a windrow approximately 50' from the cut.

The bottom line is that old wive's tales are just that, and it's unfortunate that you initially asked your question of people who were willing to share old wive's tales rather than facts. I do hope you'll see from the above analysis that front mount vs rear mount has nowhere near as much effect on snowblower performance as has the mating of inches of cut to PTO HP, and, ultimately, the quality of the snowblower design.
 
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NoJacketRequired

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Re: Mid mount vs rear PTO for lower - which is stronger?

I should add that the father of the young lad from whom I purchased our B7510 and front mount blower cautioned me to ALWAYS be sure of the direction in which the chute was pointing before engaging the PTO, lest I knock a window out. Yup, that is good advice because this blower really does throw the snow a good distance.
 

torch

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I have a B2550 front mount blower and a B2789 3ph blower. Both recommended by Kubota for the B7100. The front PTO rpm is 2450, the rear 540 (low speed).

The front mount blower has an 8:3 gear reduction. The 3 vane impeller is 16" in diameter, therefore impeller tip speed is approximately 44mph.

The rear mount blower has a larger diameter 20" impeller but the tip speed is still 12mph slower than the front mount. However, the rear mount 4 vane impeller is 15% deeper.

In theory, that extra vane and depth should mean the rear mount has 27% greater snow moving capacity than the front mount -- if the tractor HP is up to the task, of course!

Right now the B2550 is completely stripped as I replace some rusted out sections of the tub, bearings, sprockets etc. I'll let you know how the theory hold up when I've finished rebuilding and can test them side-by-side (or should that read "end-to-end"?:D).

On thing I will add: the B2789 is built of much stronger stuff. The sheet metal is twice as thick, the auger metal is twice as thick, the impeller metal is twice as thick. I think they pared the B2550 down to the minimum to reduce the weight on the front axle.
 

bearbait

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Last year I ran a 74" on the rear and this year a 64" on the front of my L3560. Last year the rear blower plugged up in the wet snow while this year the 64" has no problem with wet snow which really surprised me but the rear had to deal with more volume. I love the front blower for obvious reasons although it's a pain in the butt to put the sub frame on compared to the B3200 I used to have. If you get a front blower it will clear just fine.
 

Dave_eng

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If you are not aware of the rotating drum snow blowers and are a good metal fabricator, this is the design to go with.

The airport video is of a large tractor operated rotating drum blower but there are small ones as well. A 12 hp Gravely walk behind with a rotating drum blower is amazing to experience.

In simple terms the drum enclosing the fan rotates and on either side the snow comes directly off the tip of the fan and flies through the air. No friction or direction change losses.

On the gravely, the drum and chute rotate to either side so the snow is going straight out the chute with few losses.

The Normand video clearly shows the snow is being discharged without the chute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiSuVMq-byw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLNUPDsZkB0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQU1U8Hd4dY

Dave M7040