How much diesel treatment do you put in the tank?

[bambam31]

I've been using Clear Diesel treatment for slime and water for as long as I've had my tractor. I just splash a little in the tank and fuel cans because it says the 32 oz container will treat 100 gallons. I noticed I had a little slime in my fuel can recently and I thought I might have been going too light on the additive. I do filter my fuel when I full up my tractor but can you over do it with the additive?

 

[sheepfarmer]

Best to calculate the amount you need to treat a tankful, pour into tank and add fuel to fill. If 32 oz treats 100 gal, 3.2 oz is enough to treat 10 gal. 4 oz is a half cup, so a splash might not be enough. If you don't use a mr funnel you can put the treatment directly into your storage container and then fill. Get some measuring cups for the barn, or use the ones in your kitchen to fill a jar with water to measure out 3.2 oz for example, and then mark the height on the jar with a permanent marker, dry it out, keep a lid on it to keep it clean and then you have a dedicated Diesel Klear measuring device.

 

[tiktock]

I've been using Clear Diesel treatment for slime and water for as long as I've had my tractor. I just splash a little in the tank and fuel cans because it says the 32 oz container will treat 100 gallons. I noticed I had a little slime in my fuel can recently and I thought I might have been going too light on the additive. I do filter my fuel when I full up my tractor but can you over do it with the additive?

I simply calculated that my ~6.5gal tank should get about 2 ounces if the full 32 oz treats 100 gallos.

 

[troverman]

Hmm...I run no additives, haven't for years...no issues. Why are people running additives? (Aside from anti-gel in winter)

 

[John T]

Hmm...I run no additives, haven't for years...no issues. Why are people running additives? (Aside from anti-gel in winter)

Yeah,
I only add in the winter months

My garage fuel oil tank is 165 gallons
So I dump a bottle of this stuff in every time I have a fill up.
Which will be today actually...

same thing for the house tank which
is 275 gallons

I fill the tractor from the garage tank and that always has a little extra in it.

I only use this stuff because I get it for free
.

 

[troverman]

I use a 60 gallon transfer tank in my pickup for refueling - it is filtered, but I don't add additives. My 275 gallon tank in my basement is just for the furnace...why would you ever treat it?

I'd be careful with anything labeled "water dispersant" on it, if you have a diesel engine with a common-rail fuel system. These 'dispersants' can sometimes allow water droplets to pass through filtration and/or separators and get to the main high pressure pump, which usually causes costly failure down the road. But maybe this product is fine, I have no experience.

I buy Motorcraft PM23 from the Ford dealer in the cold months for my Super Duty pickup. This is usually what ends up in the Kubota as well.

 

[sdk1968]

dont treat my diesel fuel either....

not having a big storage tank & constant use means that i go thru it pretty quickly... then drive her down to the station & fill her & a can up again.

 

[marchanna]

I treat 250:1 - diesel:2-EHN, then a lubrication additive @ 500:1.

Our fuel here in Canada is very poor quality. Most pump diesel has 40 - 42 cetane number. Almost all modern diesel engines were designed to run on 50 - 55 cetane.

Remember all those Fords and Chevys with stretched head bolts? Low cetane number was the culprit.

If you have good fuel where you live, additives shouldn't be necessary. California has stepped up their requirements to almost Euro standards.

Unfortunately, Canadian's are left behind.

 

[troverman]

I treat 250:1 - diesel:2-EHN, then a lubrication additive @ 500:1.

Our fuel here in Canada is very poor quality. Most pump diesel has 40 - 42 cetane number. Almost all modern diesel engines were designed to run on 50 - 55 cetane.

Remember all those Fords and Chevys with stretched head bolts? Low cetane number was the culprit.

If you have good fuel where you live, additives shouldn't be necessary. California has stepped up their requirements to almost Euro standards.

Unfortunately, Canadian's are left behind.

Nah, I don't totally buy that. I live in the northeast-US. Every diesel station I've ever gone to has a cetane rating of 40. I've owned 4 diesel heavy duty pickups over the years and none of them has ever run poorly because of 40-cetane fuel. The manufacturers are well aware that 40 is what is primarily sold in the US, and they test their vehicles all over the country. Is more cetane beneficial? Sure, I guess. Higher cetane is the speed at which the diesel combusts under pressure. But my experience with running diesel pickups and equipment to me proves things run fine on 40. I mean, think about the number of diesel vehicles just in my town - delivery trucks, 18-wheelers, UPS vans, fire trucks, ambulances, pickup trucks, highway plow trucks, propane delivery trucks, etc, etc, etc. Nobody is complaining their vehicles are running poorly.

 

[marchanna]

Nah, I don't totally buy that. I live in the northeast-US. Every diesel station I've ever gone to has a cetane rating of 40. I've owned 4 diesel heavy duty pickups over the years and none of them has ever run poorly because of 40-cetane fuel. The manufacturers are well aware that 40 is what is primarily sold in the US, and they test their vehicles all over the country. Is more cetane beneficial? Sure, I guess. Higher cetane is the speed at which the diesel combusts under pressure. But my experience with running diesel pickups and equipment to me proves things run fine on 40. I mean, think about the number of diesel vehicles just in my town - delivery trucks, 18-wheelers, UPS vans, fire trucks, ambulances, pickup trucks, highway plow trucks, propane delivery trucks, etc, etc, etc. Nobody is complaining their vehicles are running poorly.

I'm not making this stuff up. The diesel equipment manufacturers have been lobbying the US Gov for years to improve the standards due to high premature failure rates of diesel engines and components. This is particularly of concern with common rail engines. I had an injector seal blow through on my OM642 engine at under 80,000kms (that's when I bought it) - I haven't had an issue since. Yet, people complain constantly in NA about these engines, but they run trouble free in the rest of the world. Around here, I hear people say all the time that they would never buy another diesel pickup because of the constant engine repairs and maintenance. So strange. But that's just anecdotal stuff. I can post some links to some official reports and what not.

 

[Frostbitten]

usually run howes diesel treatment at 2oz per gallon

run it all year 'round.

Helps keep the fuel system clean, and keep the fuel from gelling here in the cold michigan winters


2oz per gallon at every fill up seems to be just right

and you can get a jug on amazon for 9 bucks. cheap

 

[troverman]

I'm not making this stuff up. The diesel equipment manufacturers have been lobbying the US Gov for years to improve the standards due to high premature failure rates of diesel engines and components. This is particularly of concern with common rail engines. I had an injector seal blow through on my OM642 engine at under 80,000kms (that's when I bought it) - I haven't had an issue since. Yet, people complain constantly in NA about these engines, but they run trouble free in the rest of the world. Around here, I hear people say all the time that they would never buy another diesel pickup because of the constant engine repairs and maintenance. So strange. But that's just anecdotal stuff. I can post some links to some official reports and what not.

I don't what you are saying. I run Ford 6.7 diesel pickups. When I first started out, I used to religiously buy Ford Motorcraft PM-22 additive. It was a cetane boost and lubricity additive. Listening to folks on the Internet made me think I'd ruin a high-pressure pump or my truck wouldn't run well without additives. Well, even adding this stuff at every fillup...even well beyond the correct ratio...never caused my truck to run any different at all, no better economy, and I suppose my high pressure pump received all the lube it needed.

Do you really think you could tell any difference between running a new diesel vehicle on a tank of 40-cetane vs a tank of 50 cetane? I highly doubt it.

Manufacturers are indeed pushing for higher-quality diesel (Top-Tier diesel is becoming a thing) with higher cetane and lubricity built in. But this has nothing to do with stemming warranty failures or improving performance. It has to do with the manufacturers being able to make their engines cheaper and survive just as well.

Just my opinion.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Most fuel treatments do not treat for water or algae, make sure the label says it does.
Water in your fuel is a condensation issue, that is if the fuel was clean to start with, the only real way to deal with it is to separate and filter it back out before using it.

 

[marchanna]

I don't what you are saying. I run Ford 6.7 diesel pickups. When I first started out, I used to religiously buy Ford Motorcraft PM-22 additive. It was a cetane boost and lubricity additive. Listening to folks on the Internet made me think I'd ruin a high-pressure pump or my truck wouldn't run well without additives. Well, even adding this stuff at every fillup...even well beyond the correct ratio...never caused my truck to run any different at all, no better economy, and I suppose my high pressure pump received all the lube it needed.

Do you really think you could tell any difference between running a new diesel vehicle on a tank of 40-cetane vs a tank of 50 cetane? I highly doubt it.

Manufacturers are indeed pushing for higher-quality diesel (Top-Tier diesel is becoming a thing) with higher cetane and lubricity built in. But this has nothing to do with stemming warranty failures or improving performance. It has to do with the manufacturers being able to make their engines cheaper and survive just as well.

Just my opinion.

Obviously, manufacturers want to make their engines cheaper, but their complaints often stem from lubricity. They already use the best materials in injectors and injection pumps, but wear has been an increasing issue. Partly due to tighter tolerance, but also due to the implementation of ULSD. The fuel systems (and engines) have to be designed as such to meet the modern emissions regulations, but the governments have not always been as diligent to force the oil companies to make fuel the has the appropriate properties.

The Eu has done an excellent job of this by requiring specs on lubricity and cetane number that exceed those in NA. As a result, this actually allows for diesels engines to be tuned up in the EU. Take a look at any road diesel engine available in both the EU and NA; the NA versions are tuned down. Tractors of course are a little different story, they never push the performance to displacement ratios that road vehicles do, and are a lot more overbuilt because more weight is generally an advantage.

I never used to use additive either, but that was back before ULSD, when the common diesel engine was always good for a million miles (with the exception of the Buick-based V8 diesel ). But a lot has changed since then: ULSD, 20:1 compassion ratios, 30,000psi fuel rails, light-weighting, piezo-electric injectors that can make 4 injections per stroke, EGR, Urea injection systems, etc. The complaints that I regularly hear from people I know, were almost unheard of in the past. Many if not most of these issues can be resolved through fuel quality.

BTW in Canada, the adhering to government diesel fuel quality guidelines is only voluntary.

 

[troverman]

Obviously, manufacturers want to make their engines cheaper, but their complaints often stem from lubricity. They already use the best materials in injectors and injection pumps, but wear has been an increasing issue. Partly due to tighter tolerance, but also due to the implementation of ULSD. The fuel systems (and engines) have to be designed as such to meet the modern emissions regulations, but the governments have not always been as diligent to force the oil companies to make fuel the has the appropriate properties.

The Eu has done an excellent job of this by requiring specs on lubricity and cetane number that exceed those in NA. As a result, this actually allows for diesels engines to be tuned up in the EU. Take a look at any road diesel engine available in both the EU and NA; the NA versions are tuned down. Tractors of course are a little different story, they never push the performance to displacement ratios that road vehicles do, and are a lot more overbuilt because more weight is generally an advantage.

I never used to use additive either, but that was back before ULSD, when the common diesel engine was always good for a million miles (with the exception of the Buick-based V8 diesel ). But a lot has changed since then: ULSD, 20:1 compassion ratios, 30,000psi fuel rails, light-weighting, piezo-electric injectors that can make 4 injections per stroke, EGR, Urea injection systems, etc. The complaints that I regularly hear from people I know, were almost unheard of in the past. Many if not most of these issues can be resolved through fuel quality.

BTW in Canada, the adhering to government diesel fuel quality guidelines is only voluntary.

Interesting post, marchanna. I would note that compression ratios on modern, common-rail diesels are actually less than they used to be. For example, my 2017 Ford 6.7L Powerstroke truck is only 16:1. I would also note EGR was being used on diesel engines dating back to the mid-2000's when low sulfur diesel was still in use. Urea injection is only in the exhaust stream and has zero interaction with fuel. And the problem with lubricity is contained to the high pressure fuel pumps - injectors rarely fail because of lubricity. They fail when the high pressure pump fails, sending shrapnel downstream to the injectors when it plugs and destroys them.

 

[marchanna]

While I don't disagree that some makes have reduced compression, I would suggest that in general compression is higher. We can speculate on why some brands chose to go lower, but that's all it would be, is speculation. Generally speaking though, higher compression = higher power and torque output.

On high-end diesel pickups, it seems the automakers have chosen just to go with larger detuned engines, which I suspect is for reliability. I converted my OM642 to Euro specs, this is a 3 litre V6, and it has 260Hp and 500ft-lbs, but I only run treated fuel in it. It sometimes drops below 7L/100kms on the highway, and this is a 5,600lb vehicle dry weight. If for whatever reason, I fill up without treatment, it is a very marked difference in performance and engine vibration, such that my wife (who did know about the non-treated fill-up) asked why it was running so bad.

The Urea injection in and of itself is not the problem, but the associated equipment creates more back pressure in the exhaust (DPF and SCR), and when combined with EGR causes more soot production and burnt fuel products to slip past the rings into the oil, this causes the sludge issues that we have seen on the rise. EGR on its own when exercised with diligence in oil changes, is not that big of an issue, but does generally require a newer spec oil that has better contamination-holding properties.

EGR, ULSD, and Common Rail all got phased in within a relatively short period of time, less than 8 years. And, it was all staggered, so it's hard to point the blame on a single cause. However, fuel properties do generally resolve the issues.

In Canada, in the early to mid 2000's we saw a lot of engine failures on the diesel pickups, which were generally remedied or prevented by "bullet-proofing". The exception is the old 5.9 Cummins, which I happen to have one, but these were super tough engines that weren't tuned very high.

It's unfortunate that the earlier Duramax and Powerstroke engines got such a bad rap, because they were actually well designed and well built engines; but the high peak pressures in the cylinders caused by low cetane numbers (you can read the studies by Sandia National Laboratories) resulted in stretched head bolts, excess oil contamination, and all the consequential failures. The greater the ignition delay, the higher the peak cylinder pressure - this is bad for diesel engines. I don't think anyone disputes that.

 

[troverman]

Using SCR reduces the need for a lot of EGR and improves fuel economy. I think the biggest problem with modern aftertreatment systems is the DPF, depending upon how it is executed. For example, Ford uses exhaust-stroke diesel injection in the cylinders. This can cause some engine oil dilution with diesel if the truck needs to regenerate a lot. GM, on the other hand, uses a separate injector in the exhaust system to perform regenerations. This increases cost but eliminates oil dilution. Modern Ck / CJ oils designed for DPF systems do help. As for EGR, is is reintroduced into the intake for the purpose of lowering cylinder temps and thus reducing NOx...however, it is a dead end-gas and thus removes some energy from the fuel / air charge in the cylinder...lowering fuel economy. EGR itself is dirty, and has the tendency to plug up the required EGR cooler. But it also reintroduces carbon into the intake tract and cylinders. Better fuel is not going to solve this.

 

[Cfrazer]

Best to calculate the amount you need to treat a tankful, pour into tank and add fuel to fill. If 32 oz treats 100 gal, 3.2 oz is enough to treat 10 gal. 4 oz is a half cup, so a splash might not be enough. If you don't use a mr funnel you can put the treatment directly into your storage container and then fill. Get some measuring cups for the barn, or use the ones in your kitchen to fill a jar with water to measure out 3.2 oz for example, and then mark the height on the jar with a permanent marker, dry it out, keep a lid on it to keep it clean and then you have a dedicated Diesel Klear measuring device.

Now I'm confused - I add power service additive to my storage container, then fill my tank using a mr funnel, is the mr funnel filtering out the additive or do i not need the additive because i am using a mr funnel?

 

[sheepfarmer]

Now I'm confused - I add power service additive to my storage container, then fill my tank using a mr funnel, is the mr funnel filtering out the additive or do i not need the additive because i am using a mr funnel?

Some of the additives will strip the coating off the filter material in the mr funnel and then it won't work right, and so if you want to remove the water, a good idea! you need to put the additive in the tractor tank first, and then filter the diesel as it goes into the tank second.

 

[Cfrazer]

Some of the additives will strip the coating off the filter material in the mr funnel and then it won't work right, and so if you want to remove the water, a good idea! you need to put the additive in the tractor tank first, and then filter the diesel as it goes into the tank second.

Thanks, I will start doing it that way from now on to be on the safe side, maybe pick up a new mr funnel as well.