Cheap Hydro-Bagger project

[Dr Honda]

Hi Guys,

This is a continuation, of my questions here: http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19106

I've only had my BX1870 for a few weeks... but from day one... I've been thinking about leaf collection for this coming fall. When I bought it... the quote on the factory PTO bagger was CRAZY !! Even though it is more compact that a cyclone rake... it was significantly more $$$. Because of that... I put it on the back burner... UNTIL.......


Local to me, I found a complete Ingersoll HydraBagger. (cheap) The guy who I bought it from said he didn't use it much, and I believe it. The bags are in good shape... the impeller is not beat up... heck, even the orange pant is clean. (FYI, it's a match for the Kubota orange) I even received the Ingersoll mounting and boot for the deck. It's not a match for my Kubota deck... but I'm sure I can get it to work. Oh, and fab'ing up a mount shouldn't be too hard.

Now... my tractor doesn't have any rear hydro... but after making my post above, and looking over the parts explosion for the BX25 (with a backhoe) I found that they just split off the FEL/3 point pressure, and there is a second drain on the side of the trans. So, I ordered a few fittings from Discount Hydraulics, and I should be able to get it hooked up.

If anyone has any info on the hydro motor... please let me know. right now... I'm not sure what to do with a motor control. The tractor this came from has more flow... but I'm not sure of the "Split" of the Ingersoll system. So... I'm going to get it rigged up, and check the RPM. I'm hopping the output will work without needing a valve. But if I do... I may just put a bypass, on a dial, and bleed off pressure, and return it like a "Power Beyond" system.


Here's a few pics to get things going. AND as a final FYI... I'm hoping to have this all done for well under $400.

 

[ShaunBlake]

Well, I can't offer any advice or suggestions on any part of your project. However, I think you really scored big, and I'm happy for you.

In my ignorance, I think that if you rig the hydraulics and find that you can't get enough power to loft the leaves, the worst case is that you will trade it for one that your BX can run -- and prolly put a bit of filthy lucre in your pocket!

Good luck with it, and keep the pics coming!

 

[Patrick BX]

Ingersoll (formerly Case) GT's hydraulic system usually puts out between 8.5 to 9.5 gpm depending on the exact model and year. The hydrabaggers/vacs are run off the rear PTO (hydraulic motor spool valve). The PTO is plumbed in series with the main tractor travel control valve, such that it receives ALL pump flow first. The hydraulic motors on the vacs are proprietary and I have never been able to find the actual motor displacement anywhere. You do have a newer model with the case drain on the motor, which is a good thing.

I had multiple Case garden tractors before I bought my BX2660. I kept the hydravac to adapt to the BX, but plan to run it off the PTO since I never had the correct hyd motor for it anyway. BTW, the rear hydraulic remote kit for the BX series is under $400 and has 3 pairs of outlets. I plan to add it in the future.

Good luck with the project.

 

[Dr Honda]

Ingersoll (formerly Case) GT's hydraulic system usually puts out between 8.5 to 9.5 gpm depending on the exact model and year. The hydrabaggers/vacs are run off the rear PTO (hydraulic motor spool valve). The PTO is plumbed in series with the main tractor travel control valve, such that it receives ALL pump flow first. The hydraulic motors on the vacs are proprietary and I have never been able to find the actual motor displacement anywhere. You do have a newer model with the case drain on the motor, which is a good thing.

..........

Good luck with the project.

Thanks for the pump info.

Since buying the bagger, I did a little digging... but didn't turn up too much on it. I did discover that it was a more recent model, but as you said... they didn't post any displacement. Looking over the manual for the BX... I see that the priority valve sends 2.1 gpm to the steering and HST. The remainder goes to the EFL/3 point, and that is +4 gpm. So... it looks like the flow will be low... but it should still create a "Draw" on the grass discharge.

My fittings should be here on Sat... so I will get it hooked up, and see what RPM's it spins without any kind of valve in the system. AND... if it's slow... I'll just yank the hydro motor, and mount up an $80 3-hp Harbor Freight engine on the impeller.

I think I have the mounting all figured out, and I will probably start fab'ing up the mount this weekend. I'll post up some more pics once I get it done.

 

[Diydave]

Thanks for the pump info.

Since buying the bagger, I did a little digging... but didn't turn up too much on it. I did discover that it was a more recent model, but as you said... they didn't post any displacement. Looking over the manual for the BX... I see that the priority valve sends 2.1 gpm to the steering and HST. The remainder goes to the EFL/3 point, and that is +4 gpm. So... it looks like the flow will be low... but it should still create a "Draw" on the grass discharge.

My fittings should be here on Sat... so I will get it hooked up, and see what RPM's it spins without any kind of valve in the system. AND... if it's slow... I'll just yank the hydro motor, and mount up an $80 3-hp Harbor Freight engine on the impeller.

I think I have the mounting all figured out, and I will probably start fab'ing up the mount this weekend. I'll post up some more pics once I get it done.

Now that you know the flow rate, find out the pressure. Then go to http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/ and look up hydraulic motors. Measure up the mount dimensions on the ingersol motor, and you should be able to spec a motor that will bolt up, and work as it should.

Surpluscenter has a pretty good page on hyd formulae, has pretty good tech support. I've built several Hyd driven attachments for my ASV-RC 30 out of their components...

 

[Dr Honda]

I spent a little time working on the mount. Honestly... it went easier than I originaly thought. I recived the OEM mount from the Ingersoll... and once I held it up to my BX... It all fell into palce. Also... the mount I made simply slides into the hitch, and 2 places on the frame. THen it's all held on with hitch pins. SO... I can take it on and off with no tools.


I still want to add a little more bracing to the bottom... and then smooth out the pointy edges, and add some paint... but it didn't turn out too bad.



I should have my fittings tomorrow, and I will check flow. Then... I will have to fab up the grass chute. (The factory BX unit would be nice... but it's expensive)

\

 

[Dr Honda]

OK guys... I finally got my fittings and hoses all together to try out the plumbing.

The original plan was to mount one quick connector directly to the pump, and the other on the hose that I was pulling loose. Well... once the fist batch of fittings showed up, I realized that wouldn't work because the 3pt lift arms would hit it. Also... I didn't want to put the pressure needed to put the fittings together, directly onto the pump body. (I could see that failing quick) So... a second batch of fittings and hoses was ordered. Thanks to DyiDave... I tried Surplus center. They got the fittings and some short hoses to me in only 2 days. (and good prices)


For the guys who may want to add hydro to the back (without a valve) the pump fitting is a -6 JIC (3/8") and so is the fitting going back into the trans housing. The drain fitting is a -6 ISO O-ring. (9/16-18) A word of warning on the drain. It is close to a mount boss on the housing, so you cannot use a 90 degree fitting. You must use a straight fitting with a swivel type nut. That way you can position the elbow, and tighten the nut.




So... as mentioned above... the Ingersoll tractor was putting out WAY more flow than the Kubota. At 3000 RPM at the engine... I'm only getting about 1600 RPM on the impeller blades. OK... I know that sounds a little slow... and I would have thought +2000 rpm would have been better... but even at that RPM, it still has enough suction to pull a paper towel out of my hands... and shoot it up to the celling of my garage. I figure... couple that, with the flow from the mower deck... and it will be fine. But if I want to speed it up... I can figure out the displacement, and drop it a little. I'm sure the guys on the Ingersoll boards would be willing to buy a good hydro motor for what a smaller replacement would cost me.

The pics are:

1) Hooked up
2) The drain location
3) Disconnected, and tucked back. (the 3pt clears it all)

The last stage is to adapt the deck boot. But that will have to wait a few weeks. I have too much to do on my "Honey Do" list, and this bagger is for the fall leaves.


Let me know what you think.

 

[Dr Honda]

Well............


Playing with the calculators on the Surplus center's web site... and using what I know (about 4 gpm and 1600 rpm) it looks like the Ingersoll motor is 0.58 ci/rev.

So... if I swap it out for a 0.37 ci/rev motor... that will get me +2500 rpm on the impeller.

But before I go though the trouble of swapping motors... I'll see how it picks up. At this RPM it's quiet and smooth.

 

[ShaunBlake]

OK guys... I finally got my fittings and hoses all together to try out the plumbing.

So ... the Ingersoll tractor was putting out WAY more flow than the Kubota. At 3000 RPM at the engine... I'm only getting about 1600 RPM on the impeller blades... but even at that RPM, it still has enough suction to pull a paper towel out of my hands...

Let me know what you think.

Hmm...

First off, I think it will be tough to cram you in with all the other guys at the top of my list of hydro geniuses. But maybe I'll drink that last Guinness I was saving for Grouse Feathers and try to sort it out.

Secondly, I'm going to have to get a bottle of old Jamison's and drink up a way to get you to move into my neighborhood.

Finally, given the velocity you describe of the paper-towel event, I'd be surprised if it didn't loft leaves into the farthest tub, and I wouldn't be willing to make a very large bet, even with fantastic odds, against it picking up wet leaves and putting them in the farthest tub.

In my view, you've got a winner even if it doesn't work; it's marvelous to look at!

Oh, forgot: I guess with the extra fittings you must have gone over budget. What was the final tally?

 

[Dr Honda]

Hmm...

First off, I think it will be tough to cram you in with all the other guys at the top of my list of hydro geniuses. But maybe I'll drink that last Guinness I was saving for Grouse Feathers and try to sort it out.

Secondly, I'm going to have to get a bottle of old Jamison's and drink up a way to get you to move into my neighborhood.

Finally, given the velocity you describe of the paper-towel event, I'd be surprised if it didn't loft leaves into the farthest tub, and I wouldn't be willing to make a very large bet, even with fantastic odds, against it picking up wet leaves and putting them in the farthest tub.

In my view, you've got a winner even if it doesn't work; it's marvelous to look at!

Oh, forgot: I guess with the extra fittings you must have gone over budget. What was the final tally?

Thanks for the complements... and I think you are right. Between the hydro impeller, and the lift of the deck... I'm sure it will suck up leaves.


well... even with the extra fittings... I'm sitting at around $360. So... I'm still on my target of under $400. But the way my garage is... I'm sure the extra fittings will find a home eventually.



Once I get a chance to build the deck adaptor... I'll give it a try with just a grass collection, and post up the results. But that may be 3~4 weeks.

 

[Dr Honda]

Sorry for the long delay since my last post... but I finally got a little time to work on this project.


SO... the OEM Kubota catcher boot is about $800 !!! Personally, I think that's nutz. SO... I was going to try to make the Ingersoll boot work, but it was going to be a lot of work. Then, I stumbled across the catcher boot from an Agri-Fab grass vac. It's kind of like a "Cyclone Rake"... but it's a little cheaper. When I dug into the parts book... I found that you could buy the boot as a universal kit... or just by itself. AND... the best part is... the boot was a whopping $35 !!! at that price, it was worth the gamble to see if I could make it work.


The boot itself comes blank. There isn't any opening on the face. So, I held it up to my 48" Deck opening... and marked it with a sharpie marker, and then cut it with a jigsaw. After a couple trims... it fit the opening very well. At that point, I noticed that the top and bottom were bending in, so I added a strip of 1/8"x1 steel for support, and after giving it a test fit, I figured out that If I made a top tab, I could hang the boot from the top of the deck. The hanger is welded on at a slight angle. The hanger bolts were installed by drilling and tapping 2 holes in the deck, and threading them in from under. That way, I can drop the boot onto the 2 bolts, and put the wing nuts on. When the boot comes off... the wing nuts go back on for security, and they tuck into the spring recess of the grass flap.


It all seems to fit well.


The only down side is... the boot is about 1/2" thinner (top to bottom) that the opening of my deck. This shouldn't be a big deal, since the deck blades have lift, and it's deeper than the lifting wing of the blade. But I figure I will put a rubber seal on the bottom, and seal off the opening.


I'll get it all bolted on, and give it a short test tomorrow. BUT, it's been raining non-stop... so I'm not sure how good the test will be at this point.

 

[Knott]

Nice job I am looking forward to the end results.

 

[Dr Honda]

Well guys... the project is more or less done !! All I have left to do is paint the bracket and brace for the discharge chute... and add a small seal to the bottom of chute.


BUT... I'm glad to report that the system is working. My grass was sopping wet, and I just mowed yesterday. But I ripped up a little news paper (to simulate leaves) and mashed them into the wet grass. (to simulate wet leaves) Then, I ran the mower over it. It sucked up the wet news paper... and I was happy to even see some grass in the bags. (must have been the clippings from yesterday)


As I posted earlier... I would love to have the impeller spinning another 800 RPM... but for the price of a new hydro motor... I'm thinking it's good enough. Once fall hits... and I can give it a real workout... I'll know for sure. But then again... adding another 1/2" to the impeller tips can make for a lot better suction, and I can do that with a little scrap steel. (or even some plastic)


Let me know what you think.


FYI... the total outlay for the bagger was $385.

 

[ShaunBlake]

I'm awestruck!

Re: your 'extending' the impellers -- how could you ever balance them?

Have you priced the 0.37 ci/rev motor? (Unlikely it would be affordable -- especially for $15, including shipping, to keep you in budget but...)

 

[Dr Honda]

I'm awestruck!

Re: your 'extending' the impellers -- how could you ever balance them?

Have you priced the 0.37 ci/rev motor? (Unlikely it would be affordable -- especially for $15, including shipping, to keep you in budget but...)

Thanks...

If I extend the impeller blades... I don't think that balance will be a huge deal. But if it vibrates... I have a balancer for large model aircraft propellers I can use. I was thinking about extending the impeller with plastic. Welding on some steel would be easier, but with plastic extensions... they can take hitting a rock, and not getting damaged.


Yes... looks like a smaller hydro motor will be around $200. But, it's not an exact fit... so it would take a little fab work to make it fit. But honestly... the price doesn't enter into it. The replacement Ingersoll motor is over $800. (And very hard to find) SO... if I pull this one off, and adapt something else... I could probably sell this as a "Good Used" motor, and dang near pay for the entire project.

After I do the fall leaves... I may get the smaller motor, and make it a winter project.

 

[Trashpicker]

Dr Honda
I am totally impressed with this thread and the final results. I am new to the Kubota world and to the forum so I am looking forward to learning a bunch. I have to say your comment about "the extra fittings will find a place in your garage" was a bit humorous and from the looks of your garage, I did not find it out of the ordinary when you said you had a large aircraft propeller balance machine in the event you have to extend the impeller on the leaf vac. As a mechanical engineer for the largest engineering company in the world it is great to know I am not the only guy that has as what my wife refers to my shop as "A Museum of worthless junk!" Great Job on the build and i can not wait for the next one!!!
later, Trashpicker.