B2301 FEL and 3PH Problems

[boulderz]

Hello,
I have a new to me B2301 which has some hydraulic issues. The FEL does not lift as supposed to. Pulling back on the loader control, it will raise the bucket slightly - initially only a few feet off the ground (sometimes not really at all). But, pulsing the control lever back slightly (hard to describe the exact action), I can get it to lift the bucket but it is extremely difficult (only minuscule lift each time). The bucket will not drop unless pushed in to float. Curl and dump both work fine. The tractor has a backhoe installed which works fine as well as a mid mount mower. The 3PH lever does not raise or lower the mower deck, i.e. there is no movement at all, it does nothing. I can raise and lower the 3PH lift/connector arms easily by hand and I do hear a slight clunk inside but I have read this is normal with backhoe on. Previous owner paid a technician to diagnose the problem. I spoke with him and he said as the backhoe works fine, he started up front with the loader, checked/cleaned all lines for blockage, changed fluid and replaced the main valve body (where the pressure relief valve is located) with a new one from Kubota. $1200 part! This did not appear to fix the problem. After that, winter set in and he hadn't been back to further diagnose.

Looking for some info on where to start. I have found various threads about similar issues with the loader and a few that seem applicable but really not sure. The first one I found traced a similar sounding problem with 3PH back to the feedback linkage being disconnected from the control valve inside the case (B26 3 Point Hitch Broken?). This thread didn't mention any problem with the loader. The second one seems more similar (Trouble Shooting FEL B2601) problem being a blocked quick couple at the backhoe end. His FEL seemed to have similar problems but only had problems lifting while loaded.

Now I'm hoping to get some advice on where to start!

Thank you

 

[RCW]

You said new to you....

Only guessing, but guessing a simple issue.

How are the fluid and filters? Any idea when changed last? Is the fluid full?

Does the tractor have a backhoe? Is it a Kubota backhoe?

If so, are the BH hydraulic hoses looped back together (I think that's how they work with BH off)?

It's a factory/Kubota loader? Lift is wonky, but curl is fine?

I would disconnect and re-connect the lift hoses (2). Maybe a quick coupler isn't seated.

 

[jkrubi12]

I would suggest disconnecting the BH hoses and then testing the FEL (wondering if its possible to keep the BH attached and just disconnect the BH hoses for this process, not sure as I've only had a BH for a week).

It may help to disclose the number of operating hours showing on the dash. Is it possible that there is some sort of air that has been introduced into the system by the BH installation? Has fluid level in the hydraulic system been confirmed as full?

Is there a third function system on the tractor? If so, is it operating normally?

Does engine speed affect the FEL performance?

Sounds like the Tech has already cleared any line blockage issue; I would also suggest inspecting the FEL control stick 'box' (at the bottom of the stick) for any defects or abnormalities; the box is open to debris falling into it which could cause a control issue. Good luck, keep us informed about your progress, and welcome to the only Kubota forum you'll ever need!

 

[TheOldHokie]

Hello,
I have a new to me B2301 which has some hydraulic issues. The FEL does not lift as supposed to. Pulling back on the loader control, it will raise the bucket slightly - initially only a few feet off the ground (sometimes not really at all). But, pulsing the control lever back slightly (hard to describe the exact action), I can get it to lift the bucket but it is extremely difficult (only minuscule lift each time). The bucket will not drop unless pushed in to float. Curl and dump both work fine. The tractor has a backhoe installed which works fine as well as a mid mount mower. The 3PH lever does not raise or lower the mower deck, i.e. there is no movement at all, it does nothing. I can raise and lower the 3PH lift/connector arms easily by hand and I do hear a slight clunk inside but I have read this is normal with backhoe on. Previous owner paid a technician to diagnose the problem. I spoke with him and he said as the backhoe works fine, he started up front with the loader, checked/cleaned all lines for blockage, changed fluid and replaced the main valve body (where the pressure relief valve is located) with a new one from Kubota. $1200 part! This did not appear to fix the problem. After that, winter set in and he hadn't been back to further diagnose.

Looking for some info on where to start. I have found various threads about similar issues with the loader and a few that seem applicable but really not sure. The first one I found traced a similar sounding problem with 3PH back to the feedback linkage being disconnected from the control valve inside the case (B26 3 Point Hitch Broken?). This thread didn't mention any problem with the loader. The second one seems more similar (Trouble Shooting FEL B2601) problem being a blocked quick couple at the backhoe end. His FEL seemed to have similar problems but only had problems lifting while loaded.

Now I'm hoping to get some advice on where to start!

Thank you

Something is blocking the power beyond loop after the loader. Do you have the 3pt in the full down position? Check any remotes to make sure they are in neutral.

Dan

 

[RCW]

My apologies. Re-read first post and there is a backhoe on the tractor and it’s operating fine per the OP.

@boulderz - Dan is very, very good at hydraulics.

 

[boulderz]

Thank you for your replies. To answer a few questions, the tractor has low hours, around 100. The hydraulic fluid has been changed and shows a bit high on the dipstick. There is no third function and engine speed does not affect performance. The control stick for loader seems fine, except when putting into float detent it feels like it clicks hard into the float function. Not sure if that is normal, the whole valve is new so maybe it's not adjusted correct or just the way it is..

@TheOldHokie (I am also a Hokie...nice!) regarding blockage in power beyond loop, when I move the 3PT control lever there is no change at all. As far as remotes being in neutral, not sure I follow. Tractor has backhoe, mid mount mower and loader only. I'm not sure what you mean by 3pt in full down and remotes in neutral, sorry.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thank you for your replies. To answer a few questions, the tractor has low hours, around 100. The hydraulic fluid has been changed and shows a bit high on the dipstick. There is no third function and engine speed does not affect performance. The control stick for loader seems fine, except when putting into float detent it feels like it clicks hard into the float function. Not sure if that is normal, the whole valve is new so maybe it's not adjusted correct or just the way it is..

@TheOldHokie (I am also a Hokie...nice!) regarding blockage in power beyond loop, when I move the 3PT control lever there is no change at all. As far as remotes being in neutral, not sure I follow. Tractor has backhoe, mid mount mower and loader only. I'm not sure what you mean by 3pt in full down and remotes in neutral, sorry.

Apparently you dO not have remoteS.

Does the backhoe (BH70?) work OK?

Dan

 

[boulderz]

Apparently you dO not have remoteS.

Does the backhoe (BH70?) work OK?

Dan

Hi Dan, yes, the backhoe works well.

 

[Russell King]

The three point lift is probably the last in line of the hydraulic system. If the control handle (on right side of the seat) is pulled full back the three point arms move up. If they move too far up it goes into a bypass condition and robs pressure from the implements in front of it. Pushing the con handle forward allows the arms to move down and eliminates any pressure relief that might be occurring.

Since you say your three point arms don’t move at all unless you manually move them, I don’t think that is your problem but it is easily tested in a few seconds.

Since there is no pressure in the three point system to raise the arms you need to figure out where you have pressure and flow and where you don’t have pressure and flow. The flow part is easy but messy. Start at the FEL valve and figure out which hose is the supply from the pump and disconnect it put it in a clean (5gallon) bucket (tie it in) and start the tractor and see if you get good flow. Turn tractor off quickly so you don’t drain the transmission. If you used a clean bucket you can put the fluid back into the transmission. You can also start at the outlet end of the system and see if you have good flow there instead. That would be the outlet from the back hoe into the tractor.

Pressure tests require a gauge and has been described on this site in several threads.

If it was me doing troubleshooting I would change the route of the back hoe hoses to remove it from the hydraulic circuit and see if the three point hitch works and see if the FEL is working better.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Hi Dan, yes, the backhoe works well.

If the backhoe works the power beyond circuit is functioning and the problem is almost certainly at the loader valve. Probably one or both of the quick couplers on the loader valve is not fully connected or is not opening.

Dan

 

[GrizBota]

If the backhoe works the power beyond circuit is functioning and the problem is almost certainly at the loader valve. Probably one or both of the quick couplers on the loader valve is not fully connected or is not opening.

Dan

I’ve done this to myself a couple times when I had just reinstalled the FEL. I was worried for a moment, checked the couplings at the joy stick, yup, both times one female coupling was not locked down completely. Sure would seem that a tech would have caught that though. Probably had to reconnect those connections when the $1200 relief valve was replaced?

 

[boulderz]

I’ve done this to myself a couple times when I had just reinstalled the FEL. I was worried for a moment, checked the couplings at the joy stick, yup, both times one female coupling was not locked down completely. Sure would seem that a tech would have caught that though. Probably had to reconnect those connections when the $1200 relief valve was replaced?

Yes, I believe so too as he said he took off those lines and flushed etc. But maybe as @TheOldHokie said something is wrong with the coupler? I plan to try swapping them when I have a minute. What about swapping the lines so curl/dump controls lift/down?

 

[TheOldHokie]

Yes, I believe so too as he said he took off those lines and flushed etc. But maybe as @TheOldHokie said something is wrong with the coupler? I plan to try swapping them when I have a minute. What about swapping the lines so curl/dump controls lift/down?

What are you trying to learn by swapoing couplers?

Keep in mind the curl bucket spool differs from the boom - it uses regen on retract and exhausts to tank not power beyond.

A couple simple and definitive tests:

Put the loader on the ground:

• Remove the rod end hose from the coupler and put the hose in a bucket. Start the tractor and move the joystick to raise the boom. If it raises the rod end coupler is blocking. Reconnect the hose
• Remove the base end hose from the cylinder and put it in a bucket. Start the tractor and try to raise the loader. If no flow into the bucket the base end coupler is blocking.

Dan

 

[boulderz]

Hi, didn’t have a chance today between work and kids sports but was thinking about how to do what you said - tractor does have swift tach loader. I’m not 100% sure how to remove rod end/individual hose with this type of connector. Is it as simple as unscrewing individual hose with a wrench?

 

[TheOldHokie]

Hi, didn’t have a chance today between work and kids sports but was thinking about how to do what you said - tractor does have swift tach loader. I’m not 100% sure how to remove rod end/individual hose with this type of connector. Is it as simple as unscrewing individual hose with a wrench? View attachment 102136

Yes.

Dan

 

[GrizBota]

Well if it’s the gang plug with flat face couplings and it’s locked down in place, there’s not much chance that the couplings can be only half way seated like an Agg style coupling can.

The photos look familiar because my B2601 is basically the same tractor as your B2301, it has the same system. Silly in my opinion, so that theoretically you can detach the FEL w/o leaving the seat. Sure you can. Might as well just get off the tractor to do it. Plus there a dozen extra parts that need to move that are flimsy and look like they should be on a MTD mower.

 

[jkrubi12]

So it would seem that the advice regarding the 'compromised' couple on the FEL is the most likely issue affecting your loader performance. In your case, with the swift-tach loader hydro coupler, I'm wondering if one (or more) of the coupled hoses may not be fully seating during swift-tach re-coupling. I'm guessing the solution would be to disconnect that coupler, thoroughly inspect & clean the combined hose couplers, then re-attach ensuring that the connection is complete. Based on your descriptions and the great advice given here it sure seems like the coupler could be the problem. Quite concerning to me as I have the identical coupler on my B2601

 

[boulderz]

A couple simple and definitive tests:

Put the loader on the ground:

• Remove the rod end hose from the coupler and put the hose in a bucket. Start the tractor and move the joystick to raise the boom. If it raises the rod end coupler is blocking. Reconnect the hose
• Remove the base end hose from the cylinder and put it in a bucket. Start the tractor and try to raise the loader. If no flow into the bucket the base end coupler is blocking.

Dan

OK so I finally had a chance to check this out. I asked about simply unscrewing the hydraulic hose from the rod end at the fitting because in doing so, it leaves the other end (where the hose attaches to the swift tach fitting) open-ended. I was thinking it being open would suck air in when I tried the loader.

I disconnected the line and put it in a bucket. Started the tractor and raised the bucket which went up smoothly appearing as intended. When it got up high above the tractor hydraulic fluid sprayed everywhere like a geyser from the open swift tach fitting all over me and tractor, LOL. Much to my son's amusement. So I then attached a regular hose with hose clamp from the open end and put both in a bucket and tried again. Loader goes up. So yes, appears there is blockage either in the fitting or after? After the fitting it goes to hard lines to valve. It does sound to me like hydraulics are laboring like there is a blockage.

The swift tach fitting seems oddly placed to me. The fitting has a lock tab that pulls out then the there is an arm that opens releasing the fitting (see my pic above). When I lift the release arm, it can't open all the way without hitting the loader which prevents the fitting from releasing. I assume it only is able to be opened if the tractor is lifted by the bucket during the process for removal? @jkrubi12 @GrizBota is this the same on your tractor?

@TheOldHokie any thoughts on next step?

 

[TheOldHokie]

OK so I finally had a chance to check this out. I asked about simply unscrewing the hydraulic hose from the rod end at the fitting because in doing so, it leaves the other end (where the hose attaches to the swift tach fitting) open-ended. I was thinking it being open would suck air in when I tried the loader.

I disconnected the line and put it in a bucket. Started the tractor and raised the bucket which went up smoothly appearing as intended. When it got up high above the tractor hydraulic fluid sprayed everywhere like a geyser from the open swift tach fitting all over me and tractor, LOL. Much to my son's amusement. So I then attached a regular hose with hose clamp from the open end and put both in a bucket and tried again. Loader goes up. So yes, appears there is blockage either in the fitting or after? After the fitting it goes to hard lines to valve. It does sound to me like hydraulics are laboring like there is a blockage.

The swift tach fitting seems oddly placed to me. The fitting has a lock tab that pulls out then the there is an arm that opens releasing the fitting (see my pic above). When I lift the release arm, it can't open all the way without hitting the loader which prevents the fitting from releasing. I assume it only is able to be opened if the tractor is lifted by the bucket during the process for removal? @jkrubi12 @GrizBota is this the same on your tractor?

@TheOldHokie any thoughts on next step?

My bad. When you got to top and held the lever the pressure relief opened and that spray was the oil being diverted to tank. But yes -, if it goes up OK with the rod end hose disconnected something is blocking the rod end circuit. Could you post a picture of exactly what you disconnected and where?

Dan

 

[GrizBota]

I have a couple images that I have easy access to at the moment as to how the quick connect hydraulic gang connection for the FEL mounts on my B2601. I can’t attach them as they are too large, 4.5 MB. I don’t recall it being restricted or hitting anything relative to preventing the connection from being pulled off when the cam lock is undone.