A bit of a long rant. They don't build pickup trucks like they use toooooo.

[Blue2Orange]

Almost 9y/o Chevy Silverado std cab 1500 4x4 work truck trim full box. As basic as I could find. Manual transfer case, FM radio, but with tow package and plow package.

Several years ago I was backing the sailboat back into the car port where it sits protected from the elements during the winter. Can't see poo with the topper. Mirrors only. "Smart" me decided to just drop the tailgate and open the topper. Nice view. Bit tight turn backing the boat into the stall. Forgot about the mast crutch. Focusing on not hitting the post or the garage. Crunch. Tiny dent on the top rail of the tailgate. Stopped by the dealer body shop. They don't repair. Just replace the whole tailgate. Simple basic tailgate. Still bit pricey. Wonder what the new do everything tailgates cost?

Couple days ago I backed into a concrete footing. Didn't even feel the thump, but heard the crunch. Steel black painted bumper. Not that robust. Buggers, a major dent. I remember bumping things with my old '98 Ford with only scuffing the black painted real steel bumpers. Just a scuff marks. Stopped by the body shop. Not repairable. Here is the kicker. Chrome replacement bumper is ~$1000 installed. Less than one painted to match the original black painted one.

Since I was there I got an estimate to deal with my Northwood's wheel fender cancer. Common site with older pickups up here. Just a bad design in GMs. The two chunks of body sheet metal is bent forming a nice 90 degree shelf to capture and hold salt, sand grime. They look to be spot welded, but nothing sealing the seam facing inwards. Salt,sand grime can infiltrate into the seam. Add the bottom side of the formed metal shelf is facing downwards getting pelted with gravel, salt, sand....Chip,chip,chip. The body shop manager noted I have enough "meat" to allow for a proper fix. Plastic/rubber fender surround encasing the seam and reducing the parking lot door dings. Deep down the cancer is probably still is there. Next repair will be just take the box off and replace with a flat bed. Shop noted they do more than a few of the conversions every year. They have various options including aluminum. Now I know why so many not that ancient but older pickups up here have been converted to flat bed trucks.

 

[whatsupdoc]

They are not meeting "Corporate Average Fuel Economy" numbers
without lightening the load, and the same blind fools that cry save the planet want everything disposable.

 

[McMXi]

I'm in the group that is happy that they don't build trucks like they used to. I have an '02 F-250 Super Duty 7.3L and a '24 F-450 Super Duty 6.7L. I like them both ... a lot ... but they offer completely different driving/towing experiences. The 22 years difference has resulted in a much better truck. There's no comparison in the power, the safety, the comfort and the amenities, but I enjoy them both and hope to have them both for years to come.

 

[jimh406]

Ok, until the technology fails.

 

[McMXi]

Ok, until the technology fails.

I'll happily take that chance since I value the actual, tangible, measurable, demonstrable benefits over the ifs, the possibles, the maybes and the perhaps.

I'm not going to quit driving because something bad might happen, or not get on a plane, or not use my tractor, or not take the boat out on the lake. I will do whatever I can to control the variables I can control, but the rest is up to statistics.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

Yes, vehicles are not built to last any more. And nobody wants to repair things... Only replace big parts with no warranty concerns and big profits. We are approaching a situation where the whole vehicle is the smallest replaceable unit.

I'll happily take that chance since I value the actual, tangible, measurable, demonstrable benefits over the ifs, the possibles, the maybes and the perhaps.

You can do that if you have enough money (and are willing to spend it) to deal with the statistics. Somebody damaged the rear bumper on my friends 3 month old Audi and drove off. No damage to sheet metal, just the corner of the bumper ripped out. Repair cost from Audi was 8600€ ($10135.76).

This is pretty much what I paid for my old car that I am driving for 12 years now. And the old car does not have any "benefits" like lane departure assist, that rips the steering wheel out of your hands in a critical situation, brake assist that hammers into the brakes suddenly going full blast down an empty motorway at night, it does not blink and beep at me all the time because it misread the speed limit signs etc. etc. etc.

I want the car to do what I want and not modern "technology" getting in the way creating a safety risk for me (despite manufacturers claims of the opposite).

And, by the way: it drives way more comfortably than modern cars with their rock hard suspension and low tyres; this is being confirmed every time I carry passengers; everybody remarks on it.

 

[Blue2Orange]

Shop manager has the same feelings about the poor rear wheel well design. He noted it has been not uncommon to see the "cancer" in trucks a little over 5y/o up here. Rural America. Most of us that live out of town end up driving the last mile or more on gravel surfaced roads. Sand and salt covering hard pack snow surfaces in the winter. Inspected the front wheel well. Much better design to resist corrosion with an inner plastic like liner protecting everything. I think GM designs these trucks for city, suburban people. Mud season right now. Inner wheel wells and the rear fender lip ledge is covered in sandy mud with probably the last of the winter salt.

Regarding mpg and weight. WI plates are based on weight. I have a C plate. 6000-8000GVW. IIRC, the actual weight is in the 7000 lb range. MPG varies significantly(~10%) depending on weather and which set of tires running. Best case for longer (>30miles) highway use is in the upper 24'smpg. Broke 25mpg once driving out to CO. Overall city, country driving is around 22mpg. No complaints. It's a pickup truck. My old '98 Ford on a good day delivered hopefully 20mpg. The Ford had a smaller V6 and was lighter truck. The '26 GMC Sierra I eyeballed in the lot has the smaller 4 cylinder "turbomax" 2.?L. Window sticker noted only 18-20mpg. Window sticker of my truck noted highway 22mpg. That 22mpg was sort of the deal closer. Bonus was it was assemble in an Indiana GM facility.

There was a truck at the body shop waiting for repair. Looked to have significant front damage. Hit a deer. Expensive LED headlamps and passenger side mirror. Grill, hood, passenger side front panel..... +$10,000 estimate just for the body damage. Shop person noted the thin steel is strong and part of design to absorb impacts to reduce passenger damage. Problem is not very stiff. Don't lean against a GM pickup.

Tangent story. When I stopped into the shop the manager heard my voice. He came to front area and noted they have an image and started up the paper work anticipating I might be in or calling. Someone walked by and saw my dent, the concrete pylon and snapped an image that they sent to the shop. You know you live in or around small town when someone knows it's your truck and where you go for servicing. Also, the 3rd person to back into the pylon. I guess I need to learn to drive or next truck one of the fancy models with all the sensors. But then I'll hit a deer leaving the dealership and need to replace a bumper and or mirror loaded with sensors. Guessing more than $1000 bumper.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

Shop manager has the same feelings about the poor rear wheel well design. He noted it has been not uncommon to see the "cancer" in trucks a little over 5y/o up here.

This is the thing, you have to catch the rust early. A friend on mine bought a Mercedes G-Wagon for about 120k and when it had 40 miles on the clock (as in forty, not forty thousand) he took it apart. Took covers off in the wheel arches, door panels a.s.o. and added corrosion protection, some metal parts only had a hint of primer from the factory. His wife thought he'd gone nuts

 

[McMXi]

Yes, vehicles are not built to last any more.

I don't think that's the case for all vehicles, and certainly not for pick up trucks. The body of the F-450 is all aluminum, even the bed and tailgate. Every system on it can be repaired or replaced if need be.

As for older vehicles driving better, I've owned way too many vehicles in my life, and driven hundreds of rentals that I simply can't agree with that statement. My '24 F-450 is cheaper to insure than my '02 F-250. A very big part of that is the safety of new vehicles compared to older ones. I can turn on/off various safety features like the lane-keeping system (Ford's name for it).

You talk of your 12 year old car. I have a '98 Jeep TJ that I bought used on May 30th, 2001 with 17,000 miles on it. I paid $14k for it and I still drive it, almost daily in the summer. I used to drive it every day all year round but now I've changed my routine around with the addition of a second truck.

Oh ... and bumpers. My Jeep and F-250 have aftermarket solid steel bumpers front and rear. I have a new steel bumper for the F-450 (I need to paint it) and I ordered a steel rear bumper for it that'll be available for pick up in mid May. Good luck damaging those bumpers!

 

[jimh406]

I guess we'll find out in a few decades whether the current technology will hold up or not. That being said, there are vehicles that were built decades ago that didn't hold up.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

You talk of your 12 year old car.

No, I bought it 12 years ago.
It is 43 years old now, built in 1983.

 

[McMXi]

No, I bought it 12 years ago.
It is 43 years old now, built in 1983.

There are some great old cars for sure, but come on. The handling of modern vehicles is light years ahead of those old cars. The steering, suspension and brakes of modern vehicles are so much better. Just compare rack and pinion steering vs. recirculating ball.

At the end of the day, if you're happy with what you've got that's all that matters. I'm still marveling at the towing ability of the F-450 pulling 25,000 lb over mountainous Montana and Idaho terrain. A 10-speed transmission, 4.30 differentials, 500 hp, 1,200 lb-ft of torque, intelligent adaptive cruise control and automatic exhaust braking. Surely it can't get any better than that.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

There are some great old cars for sure, but come on. The handling of modern vehicles is light years ahead of those old cars. The steering, suspension and brakes of modern vehicles are so much better. Just compare rack and pinion steering vs. recirculating ball.

I can assure you that a quality car built in the 80s in Europe can easily compete with modern cars.

I have power steering, ABS, reliable mechanical fuel injection, that's all I'll ever need. Those "assistance" systems only get in the way, and after several negative experiences with rental cars I consider them dangerous.

And I have recirculating ball steering, what is wrong with that?

I admit, fuel efficiency with 23.5mpg (US) is not great, modern cars are way better and more powerful, but a lot of the extra fuel cost is offset by the savings of not buying new cars.

I decided to keep that car and got a Diesel engine with 5-speed manual gear box that will give me 39mpg and which can run directly on vegetable oil (sunflower, rape seed).

Sure, your truck is a different beast altogether, and this is what you need in mountainous areas, but I am not towing tractors and a trailer with 1500kg (3000 pounds) is no problem, also on longer distances.

If I'd live in Montana (beautiful area, by the way ) I would drive a truck as well. But it would be an old one with pre-combustion chamber Diesel engine, simple, reliable, sustainable, one I can repair myself.

 

[SDT]

They are not meeting "Corporate Average Fuel Economy" numbers
without lightening the load, and the same blind fools that cry save the planet want everything disposable.

Bingo.

 

[SDT]

I'm in the group that is happy that they don't build trucks like they used to. I have an '02 F-250 Super Duty 7.3L and a '24 F-450 Super Duty 6.7L. I like them both ... a lot ... but they offer completely different driving/towing experiences. The 22 years difference has resulted in a much better truck. There's no comparison in the power, the safety, the comfort and the amenities, but I enjoy them both and hope to have them both for years to come.

Agreed.

The technology has changed, as has the technology (and government regulations).

I don't think anyone who remembers can argue that modern vehicles are not more resistant to rust than the vehicles made in the 50s and 60s.

 

[McMXi]

Agreed.

The technology has changed, as has the technology (and government regulations).

I don't think anyone who remembers can argue that modern vehicles are not more resistant to rust than the vehicles made in the 50s and 60s.

Psychologists have a word for this phenomena .... it's declinism.

"This phenomenon [declinism] refers to a pessimistic thinking bias, which leads people to believe that things are constantly getting worse over time. The bias reflects an overly negative view of the current situation, and it usually goes hand in hand with tendencies to romanticize the past. Individuals with declinist views typically bask in nostalgic recollections of what used to be while overlooking or discounting less-than-rosy memories from that time."

 

[jimh406]

Psychologists have a word for this phenomena .... it's declinism.

They probably have a word for the opposite as well.

 

[McMXi]

They probably have a word for the opposite as well.

They probably do ... I think the term is a realist.

 

[jimh406]

They probably do ... I think the term is a realist.

That would wok for anyone ... just depends on perspective.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

Psychologists have a word for this phenomena .... it's declinism.

Vehicles were rusting to bits in the 50s and 60s in 10 years when they started to make cars without frames (before that cars had almost infinite life expectancy, they could always be repaired). They learned from their mistakes and begin of the 90s cars were good and lasted 20 to 30 years without major corrosion problems in Europe (Audi with zinc plating for example). Mercedes started giving 30 years warranty on corrosion.

Also manufacturing tolerances had improved significantly so there were engines that lasted 1000000km without repairs (Mercedes OM616 and OM601/2/3). So the motor car had reached a pinnacle in longevity and reliability.

Then electrical systems took more and more hold in the automotive industry and reliability went down quickly. Also design changed that the mechanics only lasted the design specification but not a km longer. When testing the components they are made weaker if they last significantly past design specification.

Despite corrosion problems being solved, the car electronics now limits the useful life to about 15 to 20 years. Spare parts will not be available (or are prohibitively expensive) in the future because the silicon manufacturers guarantee only about 10 to 12 years availability.


So no, it is not a psychological thing, vehicles do not reach the life time any more as they used to in the early 90s.


But let's face it, the majority of the population wants a new car every three years, so long lasting vehicles are not desired.