Why I like my ‘bota best and don’t want a new JD
- Thread starter GeoHorn
- Start date
RCW
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Lifetime Member
Equipment
BX2360, FEL, MMM, BX2750D snowblower. 1953 Minneapolis Moline ZAU
Can't disagree with that.
Both of the John Deere tractors he's talking about are in the 200 HP class.
Your Kubota is in the 50 HP class +/- and predates Tier IV emissions and most electronics.
I've seen John Deere 4960's go for big $$ at auction. They precede a lot of the electronics and emissions issues.
JD has had considerable criticism about "right to repair" because of their proprietary software. Was an on-going lawsuit last I knew.
Newer Kubota's are not much different; there are aspects of the tractor's operation that can only be fixed by connecting to a dealer's computer at their facility.
Both of the John Deere tractors he's talking about are in the 200 HP class.
Your Kubota is in the 50 HP class +/- and predates Tier IV emissions and most electronics.
I've seen John Deere 4960's go for big $$ at auction. They precede a lot of the electronics and emissions issues.
JD has had considerable criticism about "right to repair" because of their proprietary software. Was an on-going lawsuit last I knew.
Newer Kubota's are not much different; there are aspects of the tractor's operation that can only be fixed by connecting to a dealer's computer at their facility.
Seems like JD must have created a solution to create a problem.
I think a lot of people / (this includes executives of companies) are so enamored with shiny objects they forget about reliability for the folks that depend on the products. and whether or not the shiny objects should be implemented just because it is possible. (Basically just because something is possible doesn’t make it a good idea) KISS.
I think a lot of people / (this includes executives of companies) are so enamored with shiny objects they forget about reliability for the folks that depend on the products. and whether or not the shiny objects should be implemented just because it is possible. (Basically just because something is possible doesn’t make it a good idea) KISS.
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It seems that some mfr’s want to make their machines So Proprietary that no one but their “approved repair stations” can service them. That just rubs me wrong. If I BUY something….it should be MINE to operate, modify, and/or repair.
In fact, it appears to me that it’s even going beyond that… That some mfr’s are going so far as to gather owner and user information that, in other industries, would be considered private.
An example is the recent discovery that new vehicles communicate via satellite and cellular systems to report back to mfr’s the details of owner’s use of the product.… where the product is being used, how it’s being used, how often it’s started, how fast it’s operated, how often the oil is changed, And “over the air” can modify the vehicle’s performance, it’s “tune”, and monitor it’s operating parameters.
I had not previously considered what satellite or cellular connections in a vehicle might portend.
When “on star” was introduced in some GM vehicles…it struck me as a rally Nice option. It did not occur to me that it would be used to report my driving locations and habits, if I drive faster than the speed limit, when I changed the oil on my own, or other such details. These reports cannot be stopped and border on privacy invasion, IMO.
In fact, it appears to me that it’s even going beyond that… That some mfr’s are going so far as to gather owner and user information that, in other industries, would be considered private.
An example is the recent discovery that new vehicles communicate via satellite and cellular systems to report back to mfr’s the details of owner’s use of the product.… where the product is being used, how it’s being used, how often it’s started, how fast it’s operated, how often the oil is changed, And “over the air” can modify the vehicle’s performance, it’s “tune”, and monitor it’s operating parameters.
I had not previously considered what satellite or cellular connections in a vehicle might portend.
When “on star” was introduced in some GM vehicles…it struck me as a rally Nice option. It did not occur to me that it would be used to report my driving locations and habits, if I drive faster than the speed limit, when I changed the oil on my own, or other such details. These reports cannot be stopped and border on privacy invasion, IMO.
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
they CAN be stopped... remove the antenna ,kill power and 'what we have here, is a failure to communicate'.
if you get into an accident be SURE vehicle gets towed to YOUR driveway, otherwise insurance company WILL read the air bag data, on board computers and KNOW you were speeding,didn't apply brakes, etc....
if you get into an accident be SURE vehicle gets towed to YOUR driveway, otherwise insurance company WILL read the air bag data, on board computers and KNOW you were speeding,didn't apply brakes, etc....
There is an easier way: simply drive an old vehicle / tractor.
I do not see any spying problems with my 1983 daily driver
If you do not want to kill the spying electronics (GPS and GSM modem) with a well aimed high voltage spark into the antenna input you can also get GPS jammers for under 10 quid (last time I checked) on Aliexpress. GSM jamming is a bit more complicated and possibly not desirable with your own phone around.
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
more options.
.paint the antenna with a conductive paint and ground it to body...
encase in mumetal
pull the fuse
cut the feed wire
.paint the antenna with a conductive paint and ground it to body...
encase in mumetal
pull the fuse
cut the feed wire
Is there any modern tractor that doesn't use proprietary systems?
We have 2 John Deere tractors- a 790 and a 5065E- and they are utterly reliable.
If I were shopping new, I'd look real close at a Deutz Fahr 4065E. Lots of tractor for the money.
We have 2 John Deere tractors- a 790 and a 5065E- and they are utterly reliable.
If I were shopping new, I'd look real close at a Deutz Fahr 4065E. Lots of tractor for the money.
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
It's not about 'proprietory systems' , it's being able to easily access a 'screen' and SEE what exact 'sensor' failed.
Having to pay anyone for a 4hr roadtrip to the field, then 1/2 hr to get to the disabled machine, 1 hr diagnosis and another 4 1/2 hrs ( to get back) is NOT right ! On top of that, when the tech brings out the part WHO gets nailed for those 9 HOURS ???
Having to pay anyone for a 4hr roadtrip to the field, then 1/2 hr to get to the disabled machine, 1 hr diagnosis and another 4 1/2 hrs ( to get back) is NOT right ! On top of that, when the tech brings out the part WHO gets nailed for those 9 HOURS ???
Imagine how nice that would be if you running through the night to get planted before some storms hit and kept you out of the field for a few weeks or longer. Depending on ground condition post storm may not be able to drive it out even after gets fixed. That would an opportunity to embrace the suck for sure.
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it is desirable for mfgs to make repairs and such proprietary from an emissions standpoint
we have to look at all angles here, not just ours or theirs
mfg has a liability to the government to meet emissions standards, and only trained techs and mfg have access to certain functions in the tractor's ecu, that could affect emissions. One reason behind all this is because, as we have been watching in the last 5-7 years, the epa has been going after the mfg's and fining them heavily for emissions violations. Part of the green movement I guess (dunno?) but it sucks for dealers, techs, and mfg's. You can't do anything to them anymore, they don't even want you to replace an old engine with another old engine, they want you to replace it with a newer, cleaner one (if it's available).
keeping the stuff avialable to trained techs and mfg only reduces the possibility of owners going in and forcing regen all the time when the dpf if plugged solid, because if that is done it can melt the substrate out of the can, which renders it useless (used as an example only). Another benefit to the mfg is that if owner has access and has no idea what he's doing, he can (and easily can) burn the engine up. I did it in training in 2006 (IIRC), playing with injection timing on a dyno. That thing sounded horrible when I was done with it. Oops. I don't think anyone there knew it could be done but I did it. Everyone learned a lesson.
on telematics sometimes it can't be disabled without fouling other stuff up too. All on CAN in some cases. My little car is like that. I tried to just disconnect the connector and it sets a code in the ECU and CEL.
we have to look at all angles here, not just ours or theirs
mfg has a liability to the government to meet emissions standards, and only trained techs and mfg have access to certain functions in the tractor's ecu, that could affect emissions. One reason behind all this is because, as we have been watching in the last 5-7 years, the epa has been going after the mfg's and fining them heavily for emissions violations. Part of the green movement I guess (dunno?) but it sucks for dealers, techs, and mfg's. You can't do anything to them anymore, they don't even want you to replace an old engine with another old engine, they want you to replace it with a newer, cleaner one (if it's available).
keeping the stuff avialable to trained techs and mfg only reduces the possibility of owners going in and forcing regen all the time when the dpf if plugged solid, because if that is done it can melt the substrate out of the can, which renders it useless (used as an example only). Another benefit to the mfg is that if owner has access and has no idea what he's doing, he can (and easily can) burn the engine up. I did it in training in 2006 (IIRC), playing with injection timing on a dyno. That thing sounded horrible when I was done with it. Oops. I don't think anyone there knew it could be done but I did it. Everyone learned a lesson.
on telematics sometimes it can't be disabled without fouling other stuff up too. All on CAN in some cases. My little car is like that. I tried to just disconnect the connector and it sets a code in the ECU and CEL.
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
There's no reason 'they' can't DISPLAY an error and say what caused it, then ALLOW the owner to 'reset' once he replaces the bad sensor or part.NONE.
They could easily require an 'access code' for 'higher level' or 'critical functions' like engine /emission controls.SIMPLE.
They could easily require an 'access code' for 'higher level' or 'critical functions' like engine /emission controls.SIMPLE.
I WAS in an accident in Elizabethtown, KY last Sept 13 …(and Yes…it was a Friday)…that some old man ran his red light and plowed into another truck and mine, totaling all 3 vehicles.
BEFORE the accident scene was Cleared….the investigating officers ALREADY HAD the airbag info on all 3 vehicles… of the other two, one had had All their airbags deployed including the sidebags…the other had only the front seat bags deployed……and MY truck did Not deploy airbags… BUT the officer’s report clearly states MY airbags were Armed but not deployed, and that my seat belt was fastened, and that my speed was “zero” … When I asked about how he got that info…. “Bluetooth” was his answer.
He also knew the “G-load” of the impact… but I didn’t know enough to ask about that at the time……I only learned of it when I got the official report for my insurance claim.
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The reasoning I've heard is to stop emissions tampering, and stop chopping up stolen vehicles for parts.
Personally I think that's short-sited as very few people own tractors, far fewer will modify them, and the overall impact of those who do is minimal. Those who deal in stolen parts can also often hack the ECU and get it to accept stolen parts without reporting back to H.Q., though it has made a major impact on vehicle theft reduction.
The EPA has announced an initiative to heavily de-regulate itself, so it's likely we'll see "balanced" regulations (hopefully none on domestic tractors).