See My New B7100 D. Some advice would be appreciated

[Pisby]

Hey all, I'm new to Orange Tractor Talks, heck new to tractors period. I Purchased my first tractor last week with the intention of finishing my yard, installing sprinkler lines ETC. I'm already getting the feeling that this tractor thing is addicting! FYI it started with a Craftsman 20 horse, and has grown into a B7100.

Anyway I paid 5500 for this guy used, I traveled a couple hundred miles to get it, there is absolutely nothing in the Salt Lake City area so I think all things considered it was a decent deal especially with the back hoe and the loader. Chime in and let me know what you think about the price and the tractor.

So there are a few issues that I need to work through on this tractor.
1st- the hydraulics on front and back seem a bit weak. When the bucket is lowered all the way, and I open the bucket more, I cant lift the front off the ground. Can someone tell me if this tractor should have the strength to do that? I'm going to start with the hydraulic screen/filter and clean or replace it
2nd- the bucket on the back seems a bit weak. I have had troubles digging underneath bushes and removing them. When I try and push it to dig something out that requires some strength, the controls make a high pitched squeal. I'm assuming this is a bypass. Are there O-rings that can be changed to prevent this?
3rd- I know this is no skid steer, but it seems when I try and get a bucket of harder packed dirt with the loader it moves on the frame an awful lot. Is that normal, and something to expect with a tractor, or is that cause for concern
4th- It does leak a bit coming from some of the hydraulic rams. In a weeks time I'd say it leaks a spot the size of a dollar bill. Some people have told me if it doesn't leak it isn't a tractor. What are your thoughts on this? Your advice and expertise are appreciated. I could post more pictures and possible links to videos if needed. Thanks in advance!

Kevin

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q175/pisby/2013-04-22100749_zpsbe281f5d.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q175/pisby/2013-04-22100811_zps0bf7c43d.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q175/pisby/2013-04-22100802_zps4595903c.jpg

 

[seanbarr]

Not too bad I'd say! I have a B7100D as well. You have a loader that's different than factory so can't really say much about them. You may need to observe & inspect all the attachment points for missing bolts, cracks, bent parts, and such. The B217 (loader) that I have is known for its very beefy frame that runs underneath the tractor which it's attached to. From what you described, it seems like the seals are worn and the filter may need to be cleaned. Take a look at the link below regarding hydraulic filters in the articles.

I don't have a back hoe so hopefully you can connect with others who can give you some feedback there.

Hydraulics are fairly simple to work with. I've changed my seals on my cylinders and it was fun & simple to do. Yours may be different, you really need to know who makes the backhoe (Kubota's?) and that loader. With that, you can search for the cylinder seal kits. Does your tractor have a pump in the front that's attached to the PTO? My tractor has two separate hydraulics. It has one pump on the front for the loader only and the 3 point on the rear is integrated with the tractor itself. (follow the hoses & hard lines, it will tell you)

I did have some maintenance issues with the tractor which I've spent time & money on it before I put it to work. Whoever told you that it ain't a tractor if it doesn't leak is the guy who doesn't take care of their machines. I had leaky hydraulics until I serviced the pistons, replaced some hoses, cleaned the filter, drained & replaced the fluids, etc, all went well and it doesn't leak PLUS it was much stronger now as I can pick up the front end like nobody's business.

Your first order of business is get yourself a copy of the operator's manual and the service manual. Just read it over when everyone's in bed over a cup of joe and you'll start to bond with it. It goes without saying that any machine without a computer requires time so as to develop a relationship with the machine to really get a feel for things. (just don't show this part to the wife) The second thing is change all fluids pronto unless you have documented proof from the previous owner or you saw it with your own eyes that it was changed.

Bookmark these two sites. You will thank me.

As you probably noticed on the home page. DO read the articles from the left side. Extremely valuable information. Get a second cup of joe for this.

http://www.orangetractortalks.com/

Need to find replacement parts? Here it is... you'll need it. Most consumables are still available like filters, glow plugs, rings, seals, labels, gears, etc. The rest like fenders, transmissions, steering box, etc aren't made anymore and can be found by searching, if it's available but usually used. The part numbers makes a world of a difference when searching for obsolete parts.

http://kubota.com/part/partsList.aspx

$5500, I'd say not bad if only has minor issues. How does it start, run, steer, etc? (other than the hydraulics)

Oh, and welcome!

 

[Stumpy]

Bahh! Old tractors are like good British cars, if they stop leaking that means they're out of fluid and you should add more. It's not a bug it's a feature!

I occasionally work with a big Ford back hoe that leaks so badly from the swing and outrigger cylinders that it need 5 gallons of fluid every 3-4 uses. It all leaks out as the machine sits. The owner is scared of it so it only gets used twice a year when he gets me over there to do something for him. Considering how little it gets used (and how cheap he is) he hasn't asked me to repack the leaking rams yet (getting to the swing cylinders can't be fun). It leaked a lot less years ago so your's might be heading that way but for now you can safely ignore the problem.

That noise you're hearing could actually be cavitation in the pump. Regardless since both the loader and hoe are weak (they should be able to lift the machine) it sounds like the pump isn't delivering full pressure. The pump should either be attached to the front of the crankshaft or the rear PTO under the backhoe station. Follow the suction line back and try cleaning the screen like you said. Could also be a pressure relief valve issue or if it's an adjustable unit the pressure it set too low. A gauge would probably be a good idea along with the pressure spec for the pump.

 

[Big Kahuna]

From what I see you have the creeper gear option which was used with a trencher( the massive gear shift control ) also I would say all hydrualic power is from the tractor itself, not external pumps, so at 3 to 4 gallons per minute it not the most powerful pump, and with all that you have attached it would be slow, the only filter you would have is the one in the bottom of the rear end, the bolt should be painted light orange or red, make sure the fluid is hytrans and not gear oil, also when your using it wide open throttle for maxium pump pressure, and the sound you hear is the pressure setting in which you reached max lift capacity.

Nice machine for the money Big Kahuna

 

[kubotasam]

The squeal sound from the backhoe is probably the relief valve bypassing. If it is set to the correct pressure it is a safety system to prevent damage to the hydraulic parts from over pressurization. When I got the backhoe for my B7100 it had been used at a rental yard and they must have lowered the relief pressure to prevent damage to the rental equipment. I needed to reset the relief valve back to factory specification to get full power. If you suspect the relief valve is set low you need to plumb in a pressure gauge between the pump and the backhoe valve. Run a cylinder all the way out or all the way in and let the relief bypass (squealing noise) then read the pressure gauge. If yours is low then it can be reset. Some are adjustable by turning a bolt/screw some you need to add or subtract shim washers. My backhoe is a Woods and has a separate pto hydraulic pump, it was many years ago that I reset the pressure. I will see if I can find the spec I used. I think it was around 2000 psi. Yours is Kubota so I am not sure what it should be set at.
You got a good deal on that tractor/backhoe. Good luck with it.

 

[Lil Foot]

Welcome, great choice on the B7100, I'm a fan of the B7100 myself.

As stated earlier, your FEL is not the stock unit so I can't speak on it specifically, but you weren't real clear on where the movement is- if it is within the FEL itself, it's probably worn pins/holes. If it is the whole FEL moving on the tractor, stop using it immediately & look for loose, missing, sheared, or stripped bolts- that can lead to nightmare scenarios with stripped holes in the tractor, broken bosses, etc..

The backhoe is a B670, here is a link on a couple of guys doing complete rebuilds on the same unit.
http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5482&highlight=b670
It has it's own hydraulics, so a fluid & filter change is probably in order- original manual calls for either 30wt motor oil or ATF, depending on the year of the hoe. I use tractor hydraulic/transmission oil, and the filter is a standard automotive PH8A spin-on.

As stated earlier, the hydraulics should lift the tractor, but mine won't lift anything at idle- 1/3 to 1/2 throttle is necessary, with occasional short bursts even higher to prune out a tough rock or such.

As for leaks- again, it's a personal choice. The PO of my tractor was completely content to lose a quart+ a week at rest & twice that (or more) while working.
Since I've owned the tractor, I have been rebuilding, replacing & resealing as time & budget permit. It currently leaks about a dozen drops a week, and of course a little more while working. That will soon be cut in half, as I now have all the hoses necessary to re-hose the FEL.

You asked about o-rings- the 1st pic is all the o-rings & seals in the B670 (only) rebuild.

 

[Apogee]

Welcome Pisby!

I think you scored for the price. Your tractor looks to be in good shape and will be very handy to have around.

Congrats!

Steve

 

[hodge]

Welcome to OTT!
Like the others, I also think that you got a good deal. It sounds like it needs some TLC, but that's how you learn your tractor.
While some maintenance is in order, so is a realistic expectation- it is a light duty loader/backhoe, and only 16 hp. It will do a lot of work, but it will have limits. While I think that some maintenance may improve the performance, knowing what you can get out of it and what you can't will go a long way in learning how to optimize it.
My dad has a NH3930 (50 hp), with a loader. It doesn't have the stronger internal hydraulic pump, it has the external one. So, the hydraulics are a little slow, and it isn't quite as strong as it could be. But, it is what it is, and we have learned to make what we have work well. It is a low hour tractor, in excellent condition. Should it lift faster and heavier? No, because it wasn't designed for it. It will do what it was designed to do, regardless of our expectations. But, understanding all of this, we have learned how to optimize what is there- how to make it work within the confines of its design.

 

[Tibeka]

I'm no expert but I do have a B7100 with the same style loader on it. I think mine is a 1630 model.

Accourding to my local Kubota dealer, This was a 'factory' unit late in the life of the B7100. It might not have been built by Kubota but it was sold through them and he thought they could still get parts. It runs off of the tractor's hyraulics.

I obviously can't confirm this. He might have just been blowing smoke. That's just what he told me.

The loader has a very similar sub-frame to the B219 loader but the frame seems to sit a little higher on the tractor and he thought it could be used with a belly mower. My B7100 came with a RC60 deck but I have yet to try it with the loader on.

When I got the tractor I had 2 B7100's with loaders on and I sold the one with the B219. IMHO this loader is better made and the dealer agreed. The only thing I can see better about the B219 would be the seperate hydraulic pump.

We will see.

 

[Pisby]

Seanbarr- I think you might be right about the different loader, when I try and open the hood all the way it interferes with the loader. Did you need any special tools when you rebuilt your rams? My tractor has a pump under the creeper gear I believe. Also the prior owner gave me a service manual and an operators manual. I don’t however have one for the loader or the back hoe unfortunately. Thanks for the info!

Stumpy & Big Kahuna- it is a pump in the tractor itself, the supply line is near the creeper gear, and the return goes into the creeper gear. I’m confident that the PTO pump for the hoe is strong because when I lower the arm, it can raise the back of the machine, but when I try and open the bucket I get that squeal which I think is the bypass. See the video link at the end of this

Kubotasam- Would you recommend getting a pressure gauge from Northern Hydraulic or Harbor Freight? Would warn O-rings in the controls create the squeal when it is loaded too much? Also is the system pressurized when the machine is off? IE can I tear into those controls without squirting fluid everywhere?

Lil Foot- I think it isn’t a factory loader, the only reason I think this is because the hood interferes when I try and open it fully. When the bucket is on the ground, and I put pressure on the bar going across the hood, I can move it 1-2 inches sideways, when I look where the movement is it is in the pins and holes. I’m sure I can replace the pins, but I don’t know if anything can be done for the holes. How much movement is normal? Also when I try and scoop dirt I think that the bucket is not solid because of the low hydro pressure and I think it may open, which makes it feel loose. Thanks for the link to rebuild the backhoe. Also the PTO speed selector is in the first/slowest position, and the prior owner told me absolutely not to speed it up.

Thanks all please see the watch the short videos and see if it sheds any light on the situation.

http://s136.photobucket.com/user/pisby/media/unstableside_zps41bf181e.mp4.html

This clip I’m trying to show the weakness of the down pressure on the loader. The loader is all the way open and cant lift the front of the tractor. Do the pins/holes look unusually sloppy?

http://s136.photobucket.com/user/pisby/media/tryingtoliftfront_zps86941d49.mp4.html

This clip the tractor bucket is on the ground, I’m trying only to open the bucket. I think the pressure is good because the arm can lift the back of the tractor off the ground, but the bucket doesn’t have much open close force. I suspect the controller bypass is set too low or some issue with the control.

http://s136.photobucket.com/user/pisby/media/tryingtoopenthebucket_zps495b11c8.mp4.html

 

[Pisby]

One other thing, is there a way to have OTT email me when someone replies to a post?

Thanks,

 

[Apogee]

Sure.

Click on User CP in the upper left corner

Next, on the left side under Settings and Options, choose Edit Options

Next, scroll down to the Message and Notification section and under Default Thread Subscription choose Instant Email Notification from the pull down box.

Good luck!

Steve

 

[Lil Foot]

Pisby- The PTO speed may be all the root of all problems with the backhoe.
The previous owner of mine had hand written notes from the original owner, containing his instructions from the dealer upon delivery. They state "Run the PTO in the highest speed when operating the backhoe." Mine is a 1979 and to my knowledge the backhoe has never been run in anything but the highest PTO speed. As I said earlier, at least 1/3 or more throttle. I don't know where the PO of your tractor got his info, but judging by the performance of mine,I doubt you get anywhere near enough pressure or volume running in the low PTO speed to operate correctly.

Your PTO pump doesn't look like the original style (kinda hard to see), but the chain setup is definitely not original. (not saying it won't work, but....)
On page 4, post #39 of the backhoe rebuild thread I posted earlier is a set of pics of an original pump. (which I now own)
Below is a pic of my pump & mounting setup- the pump is black, the mounting bracket is orange, & it has two vertical "ears" which key in corresponding slots in the trailer hitch (orange) & the PTO guard (gray) The red & yellow part is the PTO to pump coupler. Maybe the reason you were told to use the low speed is that the pump mounting setup is too weak or sloppy to take higher Rs.

As a side note, the "Kubota" B670 was built by a company (now defunct) in Wisconsin called AeroQuip for Kubota. They called it a KUW200, and you should find that model number on the rear of the frame as shown in the 2nd pic. You will find all the fasteners, hydraulic seals, o-rings, etc. are all US sizes, no metrics. I'm pretty sure they built the B219 FEL, also.

 

[Pisby]

Lil Foot- thanks again, the pump on the PTO on mine is definitely a sloppier setup than yours. I'm going to get a pressure gauge on there, I just bought one on Ebay and see what it is running. Once I have done that i'll see if I can increase the speed on the PTO and see if it makes a difference. Thanks again for the pics and time helping with this issue.

 

[Lil Foot]

No problem.
The side to side play in your loader looks excessive- I don't think I could move mine even a 1/4 inch. I'd start looking for cracked welds, loose bolts, or something similar. The pin holes can be machined oversize & bushings installed, but the work is beyond most people's range of abilities or tools.
Something that helped with the stability of mine was to shim all the side to side play out of each of the pivot points with washers- a couple different thicknesses were needed, and the added benefit is that it helps keep the grease where it's needed.

 

[DonDC]

Here is a link on E-Bay for a parts and service manual for a Kubota B1620 loader which is the model number in your pictures. This loader seems to have been originally for a B4200 tractor in 1987. Hope this helps. Don......

http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_kw=Kubota+B1620+Loader+For+B4200+Tractor+Parts+&+Service+Manual

 

[Lil Foot]

Another thought on your FEL- the B219 FEL uses a separate hydraulic pump that is driven off the crankshaft at the front of the engine. I have heard of FELs that use the tractor's internal hydraulic pump (for the 3pt hitch) to power the FEL, but they are generally slower & weaker than separate pump systems. Now I'm no expert on the creeper gear, but I was under the impression that the hydraulic line that goes to that unit was from the internal pump, & is there strictly to lube the creeper unit's gears & shafts, which are far above the oil level in the rest of the transmission. I may be all wet here, hopefully someone with more knowledge than I will chime in here.

Check this thread:
http://www.orangetractortalks.com/f...t=1685&highlight=tranmission+range+multiplier

 

[Stubbyie]

I've interviewed five maybe six small Kubotas in the 16-20-hp range with backhoes but never bought one--yet.

Our discovery (spouse operating hoe, me observing) has consistently been that in this hp range the backhoe just doesn't have much 'uumph' to dig--especially if the mental comparison is to what a bigger machine will do.

(Having said that, there is always something a given machine won't do. Our bigger Kubota and Case hoes sometimes aren't 'big enough' either.)

Experience is that these little guys are primarily useful in 'disturbed soil' applications. In the middle of our drought over the last three years when we've operated these small machines there are a lot of times we can't get a bite with the hoe bucket---just bounces around making light teeth marks.

Don't get me wrong, these are marvelous little machines and I'm still looking for the right one. My point is that they have limitations in what they can realistically dig when in virgin soil.

 

[Lil Foot]

Pretty accurate assessment, Stubbyie. At my place in the mountains, the original water line trench was dug with a large JD turbo hoe, and it would cut right through shelf sandstone & assorted rock. Last year I had to dig up a portion of that trench, and my B670 with the 10" bucket waltzed down 39" about as fast as I could operate it. But it would get nowhere digging a 39" deep trench in the same soil that wasn't pre-dug. I dug some holes for a neighbor up there to plant some 5 gal Blue Spruce a couple weeks ago, and could not even start a hole in one spot. I got 3 holes in maybe 5-7 minutes each, but they had dug two by hand previously that took an hour each. At one point, I pruned out a rock maybe twice the size of the bucket, but no way it would move a rock say 4'x4'x1'. That being said, I watched a guy in Indiana use a B670 with a 16" bucket, and I think he could have dug to China because the soil was so soft. I think if you have realistic expectations, these little guys are way better than a shovel, but you're not going to dig a new Panama canal with one.

 

[Pisby]

Ok, so I changed the hydraulic fluid, cleaned the fluid screen it, it wasn't that bad. There is one small tear in it though, so I have a new one on the way. However the bucket is still pretty weak and cant lift the front off the ground. I'm guessing it is low pressure. I also now have a hydraulic gauge, not sure how to hook it up though, or where. Any suggestions on that? it is just a gage with some threads on the end of it, so I'm assuming that I need to have a hose built for it. Any suggestions on where to put it and how to attach it?

Thanks,